quebec get lost

[Just the Facts]

You say Quebec was hoping for the best of both worlds with sovereignty-association. What would Quebec have gained that Canada would have lost?

S-A has never been negotiated so no one really knows. A gain for Quebec does not neccessitate a loss for Canada, it might be win-win, who knows. In reality though, how many Quebers who voted Oui expected that their pogie checks would stop coming if the Oui's won? Not many, I'm willing to wager. Just look at the response to the Cree declaration in the north that they would separate from Quebec and stay in Canada.

My favourite was the call by a Quebec minister (I think it was, don't remember for sure) who called for all Francophones in the Armed Forces to come back to Quebec with their equipment....i.e. tanks, jets, etc. even before all the ballots were counted (at that point the Oui's were in the lead). If that wasn't a dead giveaway I don't know what a dead giveaway is.

S-A is an attempt to gain political independence but maintain all the economic benefits of confederation.

 

[CDNBear]

My favourite was the call by a Quebec minister (I think it was, don't remember for sure) who called for all Francophones in the Armed Forces to come back to Quebec with their equipment....i.e. tanks, jets, etc. even before all the ballots were counted (at that point the Oui's were in the lead). If that wasn't a dead giveaway I don't know what a dead giveaway is.

I believe that was [SIZE=-1]Lucien Bouchard .[/SIZE] Amazing how he was never charged with treason for that.

 

[s_lone]

Simple really.

Really?...:scratch: I tend to think these issues are incredibly complex.

The St. Lawrence is a of vital transportation commerce to the US. I would even suggest that it would be of more importance to the US then Canada.

You're probably right.

The Mohawk have laid claim to much of the banks of the St Lawrence.

So who's claim is the right one? A Mohawk could very well knock on my home and tell me to go away because this is where his great-great-great-great grandfather lived. But would he be right to do so? By that logic, all Natives should rule the Americas... But that's not realist. History left its mark and immigration from the rest of the world was overwhelming. The Natives lost most of the control over the land. Most of it was done out of brutal colonial methods, sadly enough. But are we all to pay for the sins and misfortunes of our ancesters?

It's no secret that there is a little wackiness, if not outright extremism, type thinking in the separatist movement. And so, if the powers that be in Kebec, do not negotiate in a manner best appeasing the good ole boys to the south, it doesn't and shouldn't take a rocket scientist to come to the conclusion that the US would, could and has, in many nations, use clandestine and subversive supplying and instruction to aid an interested and vested third party to do its dirty work and acquire complete control of the Seaway along the Kebec corridor.

That and some of the stories I heard about interesting meetings and such in Akwesasne.

Yeah there are a couple of nuts in the seperatist movement that's for sure... as there are in almost any movement. There are feminist wackos... black movement wackos... native wackos... religious wackos...

I honestly don't see how Quebec would want to change its global policy on how to deal with the St-Lawrence river. The US has always been a huge commercial trading partner, why would we want to change that? Quebecers don't want extremists as leaders... It won't happen.

 

[lone wolf]

Really?...:scratch: I honestly don't see how Quebec would want to change its global policy on how to deal with the St-Lawrence river. The US has always been a huge commercial trading partner, why would we want to change that? Quebecers don't want extremists as leaders... It won't happen.

Quebec, as a real nation, will need secure revenues. Face it, the last time they pulled this separatiste crap, Montreal was reduced to being Canada's second- biggest city when the head offices of many companies left for Toronto or the West. The safest of industries to nationalize are those who can't pack up and move. Even Bombardier Airspace can pull out. The only two really big money-makers who can't leave are the St Lawrence Seaway and Hydro Quebec's James Bay Power Project. The rest is easy to guess....

Woof!

 

[Zzarchov]

As a Side note on the Mohawk land-claim,

In international law, the Quebecers would have priority, having been there first and being there now (in Comparison to the Mohawk).

Mohawk territory was further south, being granted land by an occupying power (the Mohawks were loyalists) doesn't transfer rights beyond minority property rights anymore than Italy has a right to parts of France because Germany gave it to them.

 

[s_lone]

Quebec, as a real nation, will need secure revenues. Face it, the last time they pulled this separatiste crap, Montreal was reduced to being Canada's second- biggest city when the head offices of many companies left for Toronto or the West. The safest of industries to nationalize are those who can't pack up and move. Even Bombardier Airspace can pull out. The only two really big money-makers who can't leave are the St Lawrence Seaway and Hydro Quebec's James Bay Power Project. The rest is easy to guess....

Woof!

And why would a state of Quebec be unfriendly to business?

 

[lone wolf]

And why would a state of Quebec be unfriendly to business?

Duplicity of language is not cost efficient and the risk of nationalization will drive big employers away (as it has in the past) and keep big investors out. World wide commerce is conducted in the English language. Wasn't it your Jaques Parizou who said they didn't care if big business left because the majority of Quebec employers are mom and pop operations? Really conducive to large capital investment, eh?

Woof!

 

[s_lone]

Duplicity of language is not cost efficient and the risk of nationalization will drive big employers away (as it has in the past) and keep big investors out. World wide commerce is conducted in the English language. Wasn't it your Jaques Parizou who said they didn't care if big business left because the majority of Quebec employers are mom and pop operations? Really conducive to large capital investment, eh?

Woof!

So by your logic, any country that doesn't have English as its official language shouldn't do well economically?

 

[lone wolf]

So by your logic, any country that doesn't have English as its official language shouldn't do well economically?

Read whatever you want into it but don't claim to know my logic. Even in France, when they are dealing with international commerce or guiding airplanes into their airports, they do it in the English language. Your language police would have a fit!

Woof!

 

[s_lone]

Read whatever you want into it but don't claim to know my logic. Even in France, when they are dealing with international commerce or guiding airplanes into their airports, they do it in the English language. Your language police would have a fit!

Woof!

From what I understand of the language laws, big companies are expected to function in French for their internal affairs. But when it comes to dealing with international clients, partners, or associates, of course English will be used... and it already is. Quebec becoming a country wouldn't cause much change on that level in my opinion.

 

[Just the Facts]

The only two really big money-makers who can't leave are... Hydro Quebec's James Bay Power Project. The rest is easy to guess....
Woof!

I'm not 100% sure but I think that's Cree territory. It won't be part of Quebec Libre.

 

[lone wolf]

I'm not 100% sure but I think that's Cree territory. It won't be part of Quebec Libre.

Yessir.... That be Cree. Bear and I sorta covered that in Psyche of Quebeckers.

Woof!

 

[lone wolf]

From what I understand of the language laws, big companies are expected to function in French for their internal affairs. But when it comes to dealing with international clients, partners, or associates, of course English will be used... and it already is. Quebec becoming a country wouldn't cause much change on that level in my opinion.

It's not just the language thing - although it does play its part. If you are an international company with a recognized trademark, are you going to be happy with changing your corporate image just to suit Bill 101's gestapo? Are you going to feel comfortable in investing billions that could be lost to you when the new nation nationalizes industry in order to have secure revenues - to back more foreign investment or to pay for a civil war? Are you going to remain viable if you are paying out wages that are only going to increase as people have to make up for the shortfall when Federal money ceases to fill the new nation's coffers?

Woof!

 

[s_lone]

It's not just the language thing - although it does play its part. If you are an international company with a recognized trademark, are you going to be happy with changing your corporate image just to suit Bill 101's gestapo?

That already is happening whether Quebec is a province or a country. And it happens everywhere else where English is not the dominant language of the population, yet these companies still do business there because there is still profit to be made... despite the oh-so-terrible costs of using another language than English...

And Canada already recognises 2 official languages, most companies doing business in Canada already offer sevice in French.

Are you going to feel comfortable in investing billions that could be lost to you when the new nation nationalizes industry in order to have secure revenues - to back more foreign investment or to pay for a civil war? Are you going to remain viable if you are paying out wages that are only going to increase as people have to make up for the shortfall when Federal money ceases to fill the new nation's coffers?

Woof!

Again... the good old Federal-gives-you-so-much-money-you'd-starve-without-it argument. If that is so true, then let Quebec be done with it by seperating and go through some harder times to eventually and finally be a proud and self-sufficient nation... not dependant of ROCian ''generosity''.

As for nationalization, I don't know if there is so much we could nationalize... Wind power? Water? What would be so wrong with that? What else could we nationalize?

As for civil war, I think this is a worst-case scenario that shouldn't be taken too seriously. Beyond the little FLQ stunt, modern Quebec's history of actual violence is minimal and I don't see any reason why that would change in the future, unless we were downright attacked by a foreign nation. Practically no one in Quebec is interested in using physical violence to further a cause unless it would reach a desperate point. A secession in the 21st century, in North America, should be allowed to happen peacefully, democratically and with adult negotiations.

 

[lone wolf]

For whatever amount the Feds give Quebec - and that includes any business it sends your way - its people are going to have to make up for the shortfall. I suppose the only way you're going to find out is to just go.

The civil war? That will come when people at the lower end of your social order realize they are getting screwed by the powers that be - the Jacque Parizeaus and the Lucien Bouchards. Again, it remains to be seen for there is no explaining to they who become blinded by their own cause. Within five years of the separation, the civil unrest will begin - less than that if you have not taken time to make peace with First Nation populations on both ends of your new feifdom.

I agree. A separation is going to have to be negotiated. Quebec should be free to take from the union that which Quebec has put in. That which properly belongs to all Canadians is not the property of Quebec. Do you know how much, in Quebec dollars, it costs to equip an army? ...an air force? ...a navy? - and from where those funds will come?

Woof!

 

[s_lone]

For whatever amount the Feds give Quebec - and that includes any business it sends your way - its people are going to have to make up for the shortfall. I suppose the only way you're going to find out is to just go.

The civil war? That will come when people at the lower end of your social order realize they are getting screwed by the powers that be - the Jacque Parizeaus and the Lucien Bouchards. Again, it remains to be seen for there is no explaining to they who become blinded by their own cause. Within five years of the separation, the civil unrest will begin - less than that if you have not taken time to make peace with First Nation populations on both ends of your new feifdom.

You know, seperatist doesn't mean dishonest... You are greatly prejudiced if you think so. Why do you insist our leaders would screw us up? We've had our share of good and bad leaders as anywhere else. and it's up to us to elect decent leaders, which I believe ourselves to be very capable of... at least as much as the rest of Canada! I agree we absolutely need peace with the First Nations to achieve a succesful secession, but civil unrest will only come if a lot of people start starving... Unless all of North America goes through a severe economic crisis, there's no reason for Quebec to suddenly become a third world country.

I agree. A separation is going to have to be negotiated. Quebec should be free to take from the union that which Quebec has put in. That which properly belongs to all Canadians is not the property of Quebec. Do you know how much, in Quebec dollars, it costs to equip an army? ...an air force? ...a navy? - and from where those funds will come?

Woof!

Of course, it costs a lot to have an army, an air force and navy... But Quebecers pay for the Canadian army as much as the rest of Canadians. We all pay income tax... We all pay the GST... The might of our army would simply be proportional to our population. And the army of Quebec would probably be focused on natural disaster scenarios and peace missions... not high-tech combat.

It might be naive, but Quebec wouldn't expect to be attacked or invaded... If the US decided to invade us, what could we do about it?... There's not much we could do about it anyway if it decided to invade Canada while we're part of it...

 

[Zzarchov]

To be fair, every non-english nation in north america is a third world nation.

 

[lone wolf]

If you're reading separatiste and dishonest as the same thing, then we have already reached a language barrier and we are speaking in the same tongue. Now, can you see how my culture and your culture can see the same thing in different ways? To be a sovereign nation on the global stage, Quebec is not going to have the favoured child status it has from Canada.

Woof!

 

[Zzarchov]

Maybe it would rather be an adult than a favoured child?

 

[lone wolf]

Maybe it would rather be an adult than a favoured child?

Maybe 'equal partner' lost something in the translation. Somewhere along the way, many opinions - especially in the West - believe 'spoiled brat'.

Woof!