The God Delusion / Root of All Evil - Richard Dawkins
- Thread starter SVMc
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"I don't think so Tim", quoting a tool time saying.
Religion is what mankind makes it, for God has given that right to mankind, but does not define Gods love, unless the participants exercises it as God sees it and not as mankind sees it.
Peace>>>AJ
Really? It is? I've never seen any such 'proof'. What I have seen proof of is a child's natural tendency to model their own belief system after their parents'. Thus, a child of atheists is more likely to model their belief system on atheism. A child of spiritual people, more likely to follow a spiritual model, and a child of religious people is more likely to follow a religious model.
I believe your assertion is highly unprovable given that you can never humanely remove children from any sort of parental or societal input to study it accurately.
Karrie is right on how children reciprocate the behaviour of parents/teachers.
There was an interesting experiment done on human children and some great apes, bonobos I believe.
In the first set up, there is a puzzle box. The teacher taps two rods on top of the box three times each before using the stick to push each rod through the slot they sit in. Then, they tamp a surface through a hole in the top of the box that the rods covered. Then the teacher can open the door in the front of the box, and reveal the prize inside (a treat)
Now, both the bonobos and young humans replicate the process exactly.
But, when the same puzzle box is replaced by one with transparent walls, and the inside can be seen, the bonobos went right for the hatch where the prize was, seeing clearly that there is no need to perform the procedure as in the first test. The young humans would still repeat the whole process.
That's because humans learn by repeating, and by our very nature that repeatability allows us to pass on knowledge, while other apes will not. There is no certainty that an ape who discovers a novel process or invents a new tool, will pass that knowledge onto other apes, where as humans do. We can stand on the shoulders of intellectual giants.
In a certain sense though, Mrgrumpy you are right. You could replace brainwashing rather with teaching/learning for just about anything young kids learn. It's pretty hard to believe in a specific deity without express knowledge, and most kids probably won't actively search out these kinds of answers on their own. That's just how we're wired. More likely they would ask questions to parents and teachers.
There was an interesting experiment done on human children and some great apes, bonobos I believe.
In the first set up, there is a puzzle box. The teacher taps two rods on top of the box three times each before using the stick to push each rod through the slot they sit in. Then, they tamp a surface through a hole in the top of the box that the rods covered. Then the teacher can open the door in the front of the box, and reveal the prize inside (a treat)
Now, both the bonobos and young humans replicate the process exactly.
But, when the same puzzle box is replaced by one with transparent walls, and the inside can be seen, the bonobos went right for the hatch where the prize was, seeing clearly that there is no need to perform the procedure as in the first test. The young humans would still repeat the whole process.
That's because humans learn by repeating, and by our very nature that repeatability allows us to pass on knowledge, while other apes will not. There is no certainty that an ape who discovers a novel process or invents a new tool, will pass that knowledge onto other apes, where as humans do. We can stand on the shoulders of intellectual giants.
In a certain sense though, Mrgrumpy you are right. You could replace brainwashing rather with teaching/learning for just about anything young kids learn. It's pretty hard to believe in a specific deity without express knowledge, and most kids probably won't actively search out these kinds of answers on their own. That's just how we're wired. More likely they would ask questions to parents and teachers.
Friends, knowledge is what we are here for to gain, and that is what the curse is.
First, mankind was made flesh of which must die, and second, the ability to reason was a gift turned into a curse, because now we have the same ability as gods, to rule our own lives.
Purpose in all of it? Is not to die spiritually, but to have life spiritually after the trial of this fleshly existence as a training course, if you will, for our managing abilities.
You learn whatever is thought at your time of existence and must deal with those things existing in your time zone.
Fortunately, I happen to know and understand Gods works in faith, that I can see passed all the earthly arguments concerning God, and see the inclusion of every living soul that ever lived, and will live into the eternal glory of God's kingdom.
Top that?
Peace>>>AJ
First, mankind was made flesh of which must die, and second, the ability to reason was a gift turned into a curse, because now we have the same ability as gods, to rule our own lives.
Purpose in all of it? Is not to die spiritually, but to have life spiritually after the trial of this fleshly existence as a training course, if you will, for our managing abilities.
You learn whatever is thought at your time of existence and must deal with those things existing in your time zone.
Fortunately, I happen to know and understand Gods works in faith, that I can see passed all the earthly arguments concerning God, and see the inclusion of every living soul that ever lived, and will live into the eternal glory of God's kingdom.
Top that?
Peace>>>AJ
The main part of his argument is that humans are inherently atheist, and in that I don't believe he is correct at all. That religious dogma and specific deity identity is learned, that I won't argue. But that humans are inherently atheist and not spiritual? That I don't buy. Humanity has been inventing gods and religions since the beginning of mankind for a reason, and that is to explain and give voice to our spiritual sense.
I don't actually agree with that either, atheism that is. Though I would argue inherently agnostic and prone to produce explanations based on intuition. That's what faith flows from.
Exactly.
Mind you, one could then further argue that it's a natural human drive to have a shared vision, a shared vocabulary. And as such, it could be a natural step for two spiritually inclined people, even if raised with no religious terms, to construct concrete terms and ideas in an attempt to discuss their spiritual sense, thus bringing to life a deity/religion of their own. While religion may not naturally exist in the mind of a child, it may be an inevitable result of society.
Exactly.
Find me a society on earth at any time in history without religion.
Good luck.
BTW, I'm a Christian. No particular church, certainly not a church goer, but that is how I see myself.
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Lester
Hi Karrie- Don't you think religons were based on our ancestors fear of death and what lies beyond? The very hope of everlasting life in a world with no war, no hunger, peace- I sit on my deck on summer eves pondering the universe and all its wonder, what is its meaning? where does it come from? why the hell am I here -I can imagine these would be the questions our ancestors posed to themselves. Agnostic to the end there will be no organized religion for me.
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Lester
Absolutely Lester... our ancestors feared death and what might lie beyond... not because religion existed first... because there was a spiritual tug there. A sense that there was something more, and thus, a drive to explain it by building religion around the notion. Because frankly, what makes more sense and lends more comfort.... the notion that we may burn in eternal hellfire? Or that we die and become part of the earth and that's all there is? Personally, I'd go with the atheist view over the spiritual worries. But there are simply too many people in the world who FEEL that there is something more, for the notion to die away.