Forget nothing gopher, I spent the better part of a week trying to explain just that to Warrior_won.
Kandahar: Deadliest Attack since 2001
- Thread starter dancing-loon
- Start date
The US has to retreat from Iraq, threaten to bring 20,000 troops into Afghanistan and negotiate with the Taliban to get a political solution. The endless war on terror does not have my support. It makes me want to vote NDP in the next election.
Nice try. Where, in any of those articles exactly, do you find justification for killing local people in the name of defending muslim lands? That's what's happening. Local people are being killed by Jihadi's. Some obscure references to CIA meddling around the world have nothing to do with anything in this discussion.
You got nothin.
I found this link in my drawer. My bottom line on this is that the Bush junta operates in crocked ways to get where they want to get.
This interview shows pretty clearly that they have no hesitation to pin one group against the other.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/25/hersh-qaeda/
It is one of their tactics to let the people do the dirty works themselves, they just supply money and/or the necessary weapons.
I shall look if I can find more examples.
So start a thread about that, I don't think you'll get much of an argument from anybody.
How does Bush being a self serving liar (read: politician) negate anything about the Taliban and Al Qaeda being a product of the Muslim Brotherhood and their goal of world domination?
I would say it doesn't.
Don't you think they have thought of this themselves and rejected that idea? Why? Perhaps they have not reached their goal yet, or peace now is not the right time.
Vote NDP? Yes, me too!!!
I don't know that the Muslim Brotherhood really is out to dominate the world. If they are, then the Americans are doing already the right thing by creating and helping conditions for them to destroy themselves from within. There are many differing groups in the Muslim World, and they do not all pull in the same direction.Just pin one against the other and then stand back and watch the blood bath! Money is always a great temptation and buys almost anything!!
We are outsiders and only look at tiny splinter pieces. We are never told the truth... we have to dig and search for it. Seymore Hersh is known for his investigative journalism.
True enough. I just hope there's enough room for us to stand back far enough.
I would much rather see the ideology challenged and people liberated through critical examination and free thought. A bloodbath is never desirable.
May I ask, "is our ideology in any way superior?" It sure as cow pie doesn't look or feel like it!! We've come materialistically to where we are through exploiting and stealing and enslaving! We proclaim our God is the only right one, but don't follow his advice.
I believe as long as there are humans on this earth there will be fighting!!
I have to note that this topic seems to have been lost in a series of ‘nyah, nyah, nyahs’. What could have been an interesting debate about the possibility of Canadian forces becoming a prime target – clearly for political reasons – has been lost. It also clouds the possibility of relating the Afghan mission our troops are on to the pivotal elections in Pakistan.
A day before the elections, the Pakistani military conducted another cease fire agreement and pull back in Waziristan with the Pushtun and Afghan opposition, thus giving them a free hand to prepare for the next Spring offensive in Helmand and Kandahar. If Canada’s area is being targeted already, how much worse can it become once the snow melts?
It seems to me that Harper and Dion’s coming to an understanding on the Afghan mission, as well as all the blinkered opinions expressed here, are just so much rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic. The US government is making desperate attempts this week to maintain their so-called ‘war on terror’ at the expense of peace and democracy in Pakistan. If a Pakistani government, without Musharraf and the other bribed politicians, decides to focus on putting their own house in order instead of kowtowing to Bush/Cheney the NATO Afghan mission is running on borrowed time. As the kidnapping of Pakistan’s Afghan ambassador on the road to the Khyber Pass shows – there are plenty of people there who understand that closing off the NATO supply route to Afghanistan that goes through the pass – or even threatening it – gives Pakistan control over what policy is to be followed. Don’t forget that the Taliban government of 2001 was very largely a client of Pakistan’s intelligence service, ISI. The people in the area, who very loosely come under the name Taliban, may not be acceptable to us, but we are discussing their part of the world, and their actions speak louder than our words.
The idea that we will all be killed in our beds if we do not prevent the Islamists from having an independent government in Afghanistan would be laughable if so many people in North America were not deluded by it. The comparison between the economic and political power of even one Western democracy to the whole of the Taliban and El Qaida shows that they can never be more than a nuisance. We magnify their reach through our own fear. Oh the angst! 19 rag-heads defeat the USA! Blown entirely out of proportion by the size of the US ego. Look at Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki for what real war can do.
The success of the attacks on 9/11 can be laid at the feet of the incompetence of the Bush/Cheney administration rather than any great capability on the part of the suicide attackers. The prime enemy of Bin Laden, according to the latest reports, are the Saudi elite, who offend him by upholding US policies and grow rich from their partnership with Big Oil. The proposition that our Western way of life is imperiled by a heterogenous group of Islamic terrorists is only valid insofar as Bush has subverted the whole US system by using them as an excuse. The enemy of our democratic way of life is us and our gullibility.
I note that near the beginning of this thread Kolpy expressed a wish for more linear thought. That is the root of our failure to advance beyond stonewalling one another. I would suggest that the mess humanity has created over the past hundred years has been caused in part by too many blinkered individuals clinging to the reductionism of linear causality. The failure of linear thinking is to cast everything in terms of subjects and objects. The last fifty years has seen the rise of cybernetics, and general systems theory, that holds that all these actions are processes that flow, and where interactions between a multitude of factors feed back on one another. It is not realistic to reduce the complexity of a situation like today’s Afghanistan to one cause and one result. Every player is simultaneously a cause of the process and a victim of the results.
The dynamic of having a foreign invasion of Afghanistan has been shown, most recently by the British Raj and the Russians, to result in a process that creates ever greater instability and resistance to the invaders. Following the same futile pattern will not produce a different result this time – the dynamic must change. Getting rid of the moron in Washington and sitting down to a conference with all parties will be the most productive way of breaking that pattern. It’s never been tried before.
A day before the elections, the Pakistani military conducted another cease fire agreement and pull back in Waziristan with the Pushtun and Afghan opposition, thus giving them a free hand to prepare for the next Spring offensive in Helmand and Kandahar. If Canada’s area is being targeted already, how much worse can it become once the snow melts?
It seems to me that Harper and Dion’s coming to an understanding on the Afghan mission, as well as all the blinkered opinions expressed here, are just so much rearranging of the deck chairs on the Titanic. The US government is making desperate attempts this week to maintain their so-called ‘war on terror’ at the expense of peace and democracy in Pakistan. If a Pakistani government, without Musharraf and the other bribed politicians, decides to focus on putting their own house in order instead of kowtowing to Bush/Cheney the NATO Afghan mission is running on borrowed time. As the kidnapping of Pakistan’s Afghan ambassador on the road to the Khyber Pass shows – there are plenty of people there who understand that closing off the NATO supply route to Afghanistan that goes through the pass – or even threatening it – gives Pakistan control over what policy is to be followed. Don’t forget that the Taliban government of 2001 was very largely a client of Pakistan’s intelligence service, ISI. The people in the area, who very loosely come under the name Taliban, may not be acceptable to us, but we are discussing their part of the world, and their actions speak louder than our words.
The idea that we will all be killed in our beds if we do not prevent the Islamists from having an independent government in Afghanistan would be laughable if so many people in North America were not deluded by it. The comparison between the economic and political power of even one Western democracy to the whole of the Taliban and El Qaida shows that they can never be more than a nuisance. We magnify their reach through our own fear. Oh the angst! 19 rag-heads defeat the USA! Blown entirely out of proportion by the size of the US ego. Look at Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki for what real war can do.
The success of the attacks on 9/11 can be laid at the feet of the incompetence of the Bush/Cheney administration rather than any great capability on the part of the suicide attackers. The prime enemy of Bin Laden, according to the latest reports, are the Saudi elite, who offend him by upholding US policies and grow rich from their partnership with Big Oil. The proposition that our Western way of life is imperiled by a heterogenous group of Islamic terrorists is only valid insofar as Bush has subverted the whole US system by using them as an excuse. The enemy of our democratic way of life is us and our gullibility.
I note that near the beginning of this thread Kolpy expressed a wish for more linear thought. That is the root of our failure to advance beyond stonewalling one another. I would suggest that the mess humanity has created over the past hundred years has been caused in part by too many blinkered individuals clinging to the reductionism of linear causality. The failure of linear thinking is to cast everything in terms of subjects and objects. The last fifty years has seen the rise of cybernetics, and general systems theory, that holds that all these actions are processes that flow, and where interactions between a multitude of factors feed back on one another. It is not realistic to reduce the complexity of a situation like today’s Afghanistan to one cause and one result. Every player is simultaneously a cause of the process and a victim of the results.
The dynamic of having a foreign invasion of Afghanistan has been shown, most recently by the British Raj and the Russians, to result in a process that creates ever greater instability and resistance to the invaders. Following the same futile pattern will not produce a different result this time – the dynamic must change. Getting rid of the moron in Washington and sitting down to a conference with all parties will be the most productive way of breaking that pattern. It’s never been tried before.
Das hat gesessen!!
Chris, can you now understand WHY I want you to come back??? We desperately need you!
I have to assimilate your discourse first before I dare come back with some response! Allow me a little thinking time.
Thanks very much for your contribution, Chriskander!
Chris, can you now understand WHY I want you to come back??? We desperately need you!
I have to assimilate your discourse first before I dare come back with some response! Allow me a little thinking time.
Thanks very much for your contribution, Chriskander!
Do you really trust your vote with the video professor aka the monopoly man? Our servicemen would be getting killed still if jacko was in charge, except we would have a change of venue under the banner of the UN in the middle of a civil war somewhere in Africa. Jack is alright with Canadian soldiers dying as long as it's "peace keeping".
Tell that to the people having a coffee on top of the trade center before heading off to their cubicles. However, I do agree that it's not just about Afghanistan. Afgahnistan is just one battle field in a global war.
Yeah cause that's all it was. 19 guys with nothing better to do that day. You underestimate the enemy. They don't need big guns and fancy bombers. They work clandestinely and stealthily, and are very good at it. They spread their ideology and they conquer by demographics. You do realize Pakistan itself is a fruit of Jihad. Now Kosovo. Palestine. Spain is in the crosshairs. USA is targeted for 2060. :book: Some say Britain is already as good as gone. :-|
Danes are living in fear because of a few cartoonists, we even have a Canadian hauled before the HRC (from your province) for having the gaul to quote someone.
What about the motivation? Why were the attacks planned in the first place?
Again, you're trying to reduce the whole situation to one of Al Qaeda vs. Bush. That's extreme tunnel vision. I just went through this in this thread. US foreign policy and hatred of Bush doesn't explain global Jihad. Not at all. It doesn't explain why Buddhists are being slaughtered in Thailand, it doesn't explain why Christian schoolgirls are being beheaded in Indonesia, it doesn't explain why Jews in Kosovo are worried.
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I bet you're in no hurry to leave, though, right?
Who's we? There a ton of religions in the west.
You may be right but shouldn't we at least try to evolve?
For all those who don't know for whom and what we Canadians are sacrificing our young soldiers in Afghanistan I recommend reading the following article by the Dutch Researcher, Rudo de Ruijter.
Title: Why did the US really go to war?
.......Pipeline to 911
http://www.viewzone.com/pipeline.html
Mr. de Ruijter has put as many pieces of the puzzle as are available and arranged them according to time and purpose into a picture that tells us the real story.
Once we have understood the reason behind this war, we can debate what Canada's role in it should be, or should Canada be in it at all. My answer has always been, we shouldn't be there at all.
Chris has pointed out how the Taliban have been aided by Musharraf and will now be back in greater strength after the winter, and Canadian soldiers will have to bear the brunt of their attacks.
Title: Why did the US really go to war?
.......Pipeline to 911
http://www.viewzone.com/pipeline.html
Mr. de Ruijter has put as many pieces of the puzzle as are available and arranged them according to time and purpose into a picture that tells us the real story.
Once we have understood the reason behind this war, we can debate what Canada's role in it should be, or should Canada be in it at all. My answer has always been, we shouldn't be there at all.
Chris has pointed out how the Taliban have been aided by Musharraf and will now be back in greater strength after the winter, and Canadian soldiers will have to bear the brunt of their attacks.
What do you expect, Chris, when you are not here to keep us on the straight? I do my best, but I haven't been in the business long enough to know everything and avoid pitfalls.:roll: Besides, I don't know the "nyah nyah" expression:-?
Thanks for constructive criticism... I feel my teacher's disappointment.... I'm guilty and hang my head!:-(
Haven't the Canadian forces been the prime target for years already?
What do you mean with -for political reasons- ? I personally believe our political motivation is to be friends with the US. The Conservatives match the Republicans.... that was very clear under Mulroony. As neighbors to the US we almost have no other choice, if we want to live in peace. These points were already made at some earlier time in another thread.
The debate was not totally lost, yet. We would have come back to the main issue eventually.;-)
That connection I hadn't made yet, because I did not see a connection at this time.Could you elaborate a little? Please?
That I did not know! Would you have a link for that? What is the connection to our troops?
IF what you are saying is what really happened, could I from that conclude that the Pakistani military, albeit no longer under Musharraf's command, favors the Taliban and their fight against the invaders, among them Canada?
It is understood that Pakistan is an ally to the US in the fight against terrorism. Then WHY does Pakistan aid the Taliban?
Must I by logic then think that the US doesn't want to end the fight yet? And why not? I have a clue, but would like to know your thinking in this matter.
It is boldly obvious... you are a writer!! I wish it would flow out of me like that, too! I should read one of your books sometime to get the full joy of your writing talent!
What in particular is the US doing to hinder peace and democracy in Pakistan? I'm afraid I missed some news.
You are saying Musharraf and other politicians of his cabinet are being bribed by the US? How? With money?
In essence you are saying the US is not interested in having peace and democracy in Pakistan? BUT, Chris,... that is exactly what the US is always fighting for... peace and a democratic government in Afghanistan!!! They couldn't be saying one thing and doing the opposite, could they?
If Mrs. Bhutto hadn't been assassinated and would now have won the election, do you think she would be under the blanket with the US? She was after all pro Western!
This is heavy stuff! The vanished ambassador.... I remember Mike Bryant suggesting that he likely was paid to disappear, so it would look as if that region is very dangerous and the fight on terror has to continue. I thought that was a very plausible explanation. What do you think, Chris?
NATO supply comes from Pakistan? I didn't know that. By closing the passage or even only threatening to close it, Pakistan has the leverage to dictate the policy NATO should follow? What kind of policy are you thinking of? Not to destroy the poppy fields, or what else? I really don't know, have no idea.
That is exactly my saying! We should mind our own business!
Islamaphobia!!
You hit the nail on the head with Dresden etc.
It is so refreshing and uplifting listening to you, Chris Kander! I wonder what Mr. Bush would say to you? But,... you have to admit, the whole story has still an air of doubt about it.
I leave this for Colpy to respond to. It is over my head, I'm also getting tired!
I couldn't agree more heartily with you! Why doesn't that idea occur to the US? Makes one wonder!
Chris, I thank you very much for responding to us 'blinkers"!!:smile: I really must find data and get him to come over here. Afghanistan is actually his specialty.
And... sorry, for taking so long to post my answer. Twice I was cut off from the internet... don't know why.
I'll get back to this thread more later but I just wanted to mention there is a piece about two DoD reports in the Toronto Star this morning. It seems the conclusion may be similar to mine -- that the solution to our Afghan problem will be more diplomacy and peaceful engagement.
I must congratulate Dancing Loon on having all his references to hand. I have an article stored somewhere about the geopolitics surrounding Afghanistan and outlining why its future depends upon far more than just the NATO and US input. I will try to find it and bring out the wider issues. I think it's by Bhadrakumar, a retired Indian diplomat, and was printed in Asia Times Online. (Incidently, a far more knowledgeable source than most western journalism.)
I must congratulate Dancing Loon on having all his references to hand. I have an article stored somewhere about the geopolitics surrounding Afghanistan and outlining why its future depends upon far more than just the NATO and US input. I will try to find it and bring out the wider issues. I think it's by Bhadrakumar, a retired Indian diplomat, and was printed in Asia Times Online. (Incidently, a far more knowledgeable source than most western journalism.)
Hi, Chris... Good Morning!
Thanks for letting me know you are coming back later. Don't rush, please... I have to get busy anyway with some chores of ordinary life.
I hope in the meantime some other great posters will pick up on the thread.
Thanks for letting me know you are coming back later. Don't rush, please... I have to get busy anyway with some chores of ordinary life.
I hope in the meantime some other great posters will pick up on the thread.
Update:
Arrests made in deadly Kandahar bombings
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/21/arrests-afghnistan.html
Good job on them... the people are actually working with their government and police to maintain security. A very good step to say the least.
Arrests made in deadly Kandahar bombings
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/21/arrests-afghnistan.html
Good job on them... the people are actually working with their government and police to maintain security. A very good step to say the least.
Hi, Chris; check this out ....brand new today!! You were mentioning bribe money to Musharraf and his politicians.
Also of concern is the mentioning of a government in shambles!!
Aid to Pakistan
There is civil uprising that has taken place. General Musharraf made an on-air declaration that there was call for the immediate emergency of the country. He also made claim that he did not want the assistance of the US military, as he stated that it was a time for his country to find out on their own how democracy and diplomacy will operate.
http://www.usmilitary.com/284/us-aid-to-pakistan/
Also of concern is the mentioning of a government in shambles!!
Aid to Pakistan
There is civil uprising that has taken place. General Musharraf made an on-air declaration that there was call for the immediate emergency of the country. He also made claim that he did not want the assistance of the US military, as he stated that it was a time for his country to find out on their own how democracy and diplomacy will operate.In a recent review of the amount of aid that the US has sent to the Pakistani people, the results have been staggering. In the last six years, there has been an overall assistance from the American government of almost $11 billion dollars. It has been stated that over half of the funds that have been paid to the Pakistan government from the American government was a reimbursement for the funds that have been used by their troops to assist our soldiers in battle. A tenth of the funds were appropriated to the humanitarian efforts of the American government for the Pakistan civilians in the attempt to create a better establishment for them. US officials have also stated that a percentage of the 11 billion dollars that has been paid has been to help support the Pakistan government, which is currently in shambles and great disarray. The top US officials will be reviewing the information on military actions that may need to take place in order to create civil obedience once again.
http://www.usmilitary.com/284/us-aid-to-pakistan/
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