It certainly appears that this agenda was realized so far as CdnBear is concerned…
European values and European morality made all the difference to North American Indians… Now these pagan barbarians live in the lap of luxury enjoying the education wealth and prosperity of their conquerors….
Yeah listen to Bear…he knows….
And what exactly are you trying to say hear Mikey?
Low in the polls in the Middle East? They're straight out hated in the Middle East. And the Yanks know it. I saw a scene in the television drama West Wing where a government member of a Middle Eastern country said to the fictitious U.S. President, "When our people denounce us, they call us Americans."
Yes, that is a quote from a work of fiction, but it illustrates the point. Americans are not unaware of their position in the minds of Middle Easterners. You just have to look at the polls in the United States to see that.
And yet they are the single largest economic aid giver to the ME.
What was I saying about ungrateful pricks?
But I will confess, it is much a kin to the thoughts of a Vietnamese peasent...
"There is no point in destroying your home, just to get the burglar out."
In reference to Communist North Vietnams invasion and subsiquent US destruction of South Vietnam.
You should be a statesman. Anyone who can use the words "policy" and "reality" interchangeably is a born spin artist.
I'm not sure if I should take that as a compliment or an insult. I'm hoping for the former. I'ld hate to see this conversation denegrate into a war of words.
Besides the mouse in my pocket, the West.
Call me blind as a tunafish, but no. I see a country at war through no fault of its own. I see countrymen fighting to defend their country, culture, and values against an assault that will leave them with their lives if they're lucky, and little else that they value if they survive.
So you are saying it's aok for groups like the Taliban to rule a country by violence, with antiquated ideologies, harbour criminals and murder as a form of discipline?
Who sounds like the statesmen now...you're last name isn't Chamberlain is it?
He liked Nazi's, he was a top dog in Britian...talk about backing the wrong horse.
Being a native, you should be able to understand that. Simply surviving something means very little if everything you identify with and value is lost. You eventually settle in and get comfortable with what your "rulors" deem fit to grant you... But you're constantly reminded of the injustice. It becomes part and parcel of your character. Just look at many of the First Nations here in Canada.
And I do, you likely missed my point, so let me illuminate it a bit further.
I do not believe in installing a foriegn form of goverance, forcing an unchosen way of life or any other form of political system on anyone.
That is where my support of the conflict in Afghanistan differs from the powers that be.
I support removing the brutal regime of the Tailiban, removing the threat of terrorists and et all, but i do not support subverting the cultural hertitage of the people of Afghanistan.
BUT...
If in the actions that need to be taken to quell the spread of hatred, beyond said countries borders, a few cultrural ideologies get squashed, so be it.
So long as the trains run on time, people can go merrily about their lives the world over, so bloody be it.
Did they harbour criminals though? That's a matter that hasn't been determined yet. Remember, Al Qaeda have the right to be presumed innocent until they are proven guilty in a Court of Law. Is it morally justifiable to invade and destroy a country in order to apprehend a suspect? The majority of people around the World think not!
My guess is that you are unaware that this is a UN mission now, and that Afghanistan met the criteria of a failed state?
You assume that the Taliban had the power to hand over the alleged perpetrators. What do you suppose the result of a Taliban/Al Qaeda war would have been? Do you think the Taliban would have won?
Considering the cozyiness of the Taliban and Osama, a well documented fact, it wasn't going to happen.
I suppose that's a matter of perspective. Do they fight the way they do because they have placed lessor value on human life? Or, do they fight the way they do because they place greater value on human life? It's a tough call. And you can't judge without knowing 'everything'... And I mean everything.
I can judge on and with what I have at my disposal. And in that arsenal of info is the fact that, Islam harbours a hate for the west beyond that of foriegn policy. It has been directly linked to and coddled in Nazi'ism. Yep that's right, the Nazi's under Adulph and the Grand Mufty of Palestine were close buddies. The spread of that type of hatred traveled through the ME like wild fire and it is the first and foremost ideology in their manifesto.
You're taking your own personal feelings and sentiments and applying them to a people who may view things in an entirely different light. I'd not be so presumptuous.
My point is that many people in Afghanistan benefitted from Al Qaeda. I would have expected the economic void created by the running out of Al Qaeda to be obvious. Of course, the Afghan people shouldn't feel too cheated. They now have handsome and sympathetic Canadian soldiers to gawk (target) at. Sounds like a fair tradeoff. :roll:
Actually, the whole country benefitted from the US's assistance in driving out the Russians as well, where's the love for that?
I doubt that. My rudimentary research indicates that the CIA knew very little of Osama Bin Laden. Al Qaeda is a relatively recent thing. Al Qaeda itself is less than 20 years old.
Ummm, Osama was the go between the CIA and the Mushahadeen, the militia that drove the Russians out of Afghanistan.
That's a fact.
Have you missed all of the kidnappings of innocent Muslims? Guantanamo ring a bell?
I'ld hardly call confessed asshats like Omar Kahdar, innocent.
You're not wanted there. They want you to help by leaving. Don't you see their perspective? They hate you because you've been interfering in their country's affairs for decades. You've caused nothing but chaos, turmoil, and grief. They want you out. You're just not listening. So they resort to tactics that you view criminal and inhumane. They want you out! They don't want your help. They don't want your assistance. They have a fifty some odd year history of casualties and fatalities that have come as the result of western assistance and aid. Usually because the West incites, encourages, and arms both sides of any conflict in the Middle East. And this has been happening long before the advent of terrorism. Terrorism is a relatively new phenomenon -- a new response to U.S. Foreign Policy.
I'm sure some folk don't want the Forces there, but I think they may be in the immoral minority. The ones that want the old days of terrorist training camps, death done for the highest bidder, destruction of religous antiquaties and wholesale murder over fundamentalist ideology, back at the top of the agenda.
Only if it's worth picking up. ;-)
I think it is.
Stop trying to confuse the issue with facts here Warrior!
Facts like Osama is a new player?
Osama and the CIA didn't play a huge part in ridding Afghanistan of the Red Menace?
Ya, thems good facts Mikey...:roll:
Simply accept that Saddam Hussein and Iraq had/have weapons of mass destruction....
Just accept the fact that those who resist the armies of Canadians and Americans who invade their nation and accuse them of criminal conspiracy and "harboring terrorists" are guilty. And in case you're tempted to look at Pakistan where the bulk of the "terrorists"come from and is as yet secure from being held accountable for "harboring terrorists"...just remember that Harper and the sheeple of Canada yap like little dogs at the heels of their American masters....
Funny how you always bring this back to Iraq. This is about Afghanistan.
No need to think beyond the propaganda and the bull....just swallow down that "Walk softly but carry a Big Stick" mentality... after allthis enlightened philosophy has brought so much peace to the Middle East and all over the world...it must be true.........
You now Mikey, for someone so well read, you seem to live by a blind ideology.
Cdn Bear you are RIGHT ON!!! If the "cuffs" were removed from the Forces, and not just the Canadian Forces, we'd likely make a lot more headway. PC has made it difficult for any army to go out and get the job done. Look at the European forces that are in Afghanistan - they're there but are they in the front? No, because the public perception of why they are even there and, as you state, the "arm chair generals' would raise holy hell. Unfortunately, the "terrorists" KNOW that and use it against us. Geneva Convention? Hell, they don't even know what that is and even if they did, they sure the heck wouldn't (and don't) follow it. Either go there and do the job or come home and hope the hell the fanatics don't decide to bring their brand of "politics" to our shores. As my daddy used to say, either shyte or get off the pot!!
JMO
I'll take a bow and thank you kindly.
It won't bring peace to the middle east, and I'm not so sure it is meant to bring peace to the middle east. For half a century or so, it has been U.S. foreign policy to incite conflict in the middle east. I can't imagine what would have changed in recent history to change that. Although, I do acknowledge that I am ignorant of all of the facts, and I offer this in my defense: No one appears willing to offer all of the facts. That's a red flag in my book.
Ask and ye shall recieve...such things as checked journalism, accredited documentaion, historically proven accounts.
I blow no hot wind and I do not live and breath by an ideology, as do some.
Like I said earlier, even if the coalition is successful in quashing the active resistance, the remaining peoples' of the middle east will be left with countries that aren't theres. I don't mean that they'll lose ownership to their lands -- although it's certainly possible that they could. I mean that they'll lose their sense of identity and place in the world. Everything that had identified themselves with and valued will be lost. They will essentially become USA #2.
I disagree.
Will a second America bring peace? I hardly think so! But I do stress the fact that I am in total ignorance of the facts, and that this is only the OPINION of an uninformed and quite probably misinformed observer.
You are now officially head and shoulders above the majority of bleaters and blow hards on either side of the equation.
I wish you had been the spokesperson for President Bush when he was seeking allies for his coalition. There never would have been a war if you were. No congressman, senator, or leader of any country in the world would have supported that view. :lol:
That's the point. And that is why Iraq will stay ugly and Afghanistan will drag on and on.
Amazing that no one has mentioned the elephant in this Middle East room,Islam. This is not so much a territorial conflict or economic as it is a battle between idealogies. Please,if you believe that 9/11 was an inside job,you do not have sufficient intelligence to debate this issue.There are more than a few factors that have made the ME a powderkeg for the last century,but first and foremost is that elephant named Islam.
I didn't miss it wally, I tiptoe around it so as not to wake the sleeping bleating Dragons.
It failed anyways, so lets get it on!!!
Islamic fundementalism was invented by Americans and bankers WallyJ, everybody knows that except you. You should be worried about the christian fundys Walley, they actually live in your niegbourhood and they already have nuclear weapons, lots of them and they have to be turned over for new stock you know.
Blind ideology and nothing more. Someday, DB will get to work backing up his claims. Until then, put him and his delusions of Red Run Society on the back burn, if not in the back of the shed. If for no other reason, then to bring out when friends gather and have a good giggle...How's that car comin' DB, your union buddies drop their wages from the price for ya yet.
Ask Buzz, I'm sure he'll hook ya up right away.
Yes,yes,You are right,now run along back to the kiddie table, the grown-ups are going to talk, AND keep your finger out of it and it won't bleed.... Anyways,sorry about that,he really is quite precocious....... An apology to the 9/11 believers: You may be intelligent but your critical and analytical reasoning is a bit out of kilter. Read my last two posts on the current 9/11 thread and smarten up. If one believes that the U.S. murdered 3,000 plus of it's own citizens so they could attack Iraq,well,that belief will tarnish any further rational views of the situation..... We are fighting over there because the Taliban were harbouring terrorists that want ,quite simply,to eradicate any culture that does not support their view of 'civilization',read Islam. I know that the west has been in bed with a few undesirables,currently Saudi is a good example,but in the interest of everyone's freedom,we have to make difficult choices. This thread was about Harper's contradictions with treatment of the troops.I agree that there have been cases that make me shake my head in wonder. In every case though ,the right thing was done,eventually.Cheers and Mery Christmas.
Hear hear!!!
