Why is there no "consumer" free trade?

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
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Florida, Hurricane Central
Spoken like the average (just had to throw that in. :D )person who is ignorant of statistics. There are three types of averages: mean, median, and mode.

:lol::lol:

The median is the middle number if there is an odd number of observations and the average of the two middle if there is an even number of observations.

:tongue9:
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
3,460
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Leiden, the Netherlands
Average is an ill posed definition.

With the addition of one extra data point, I can make the mean whatever value I wish. The same cannot be claimed of the mode or median. Away from asymptotics, statistical transformations and the normal distribution one will probably be less interested in the mean as an 'average' description of your distribution it is prone to outliers. Of course, talking about one number to represent 30 million is a bad idea.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
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Pointy Rocks
Your own links kinda prove his point.

Talk about more workers, but not about median wage.

Average wage is going up, but thats likely due to vast increases on the extremes. Median income (ie, what most people make) is shrinking in real terms. Either lower or stagnant (with inflation ,is lower in real purchasing power)

You need to provide some proof if you are going to say something like this. Many people say this but where is the evidence.
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
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www.cynicsunlimited.com
Being able to buy cars in the USA would force the automakers to be more productive and reduce their exploitation of consumers. When they say in the media that Microsoft makes more money than many countries' GDP, doesn't that mean consumers and citizens need protection from these behemoths?

The key today is equality because it lowers prices, it's always about the money, all the time today.

There is talk of environmental and labour provisions in free trade agreements, why not consumer provisions? Clear, simple rules and language that ensures free trade for the public?
 

jwmcq625

Nominee Member
Sep 14, 2007
95
1
8
People on fixed incomes certainly are not experiences these increases we hear about on the news all the time. They talk about the average wage went up this or that percentage, but the reality for many workers and those on pensions is that their incomes have not increased anywhere close to what the statisticians are talking about. In fact my wife is in middle management and this year she got a $.50 per hour increase in her wages, and that represented the first raise in over 7 years. The was not cost of living increase, nothing. The fact is the minimum wage has gone up a couple of time, while her wages have stayed the same. As for me, I live on a CPP Disability Pension and if you call an $18.00 per month a raise, I have news for you, especially when everything we need to purchase including food, cloting, gasoline, electricity, telephone, cable have gone up far more. Any little increase I get in January will again be eaten up when everyting increases again. It seems that whenever a general increase in pensions is announced it sends a signal to all those I have mentioned to raise prices, and in the province I live the first thing the new government did was to raise every tax and fee they could think of, in fact they thought up a few new ones.
 

jimshort19

Electoral Member
Nov 24, 2007
476
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Just say 'No' to everything!

Said1, cool poem.

Said some unnumbered left wing scholar, "Free trade agreements take away soveranty from the people and give that power to unelected foreign bodies."

We nearly went naked when we were forced to make space arms instead of sneakers. Taco Bell drove the chipwagon out of town. But I lost my sovereign nation and now pay tax to the foreign devils? There is no end of real evil that trade can do, but if it's free, then we're not?

You need to stop reading the leftist funnies. You wake up in the undisputed greatest trading nation on Earth (per capita and maybe 70 years in a row), as free and sovereign as in any nation on Earth, and you come up with this vacant drivel?

What power did I once have that a foreign body possesses now? What sovereignty did I enjoy that a foreign body possesses now? One of us is not living in Canada.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
Said1, cool poem.

Said some unnumbered left wing scholar, "Free trade agreements take away soveranty from the people and give that power to unelected foreign bodies."

We nearly went naked when we were forced to make space arms instead of sneakers. Taco Bell drove the chipwagon out of town. But I lost my sovereign nation and now pay tax to the foreign devils? There is no end of real evil that trade can do, but if it's free, then we're not?

You need to stop reading the leftist funnies. You wake up in the undisputed greatest trading nation on Earth (per capita and maybe 70 years in a row), as free and sovereign as in any nation on Earth, and you come up with this vacant drivel?

What power did I once have that a foreign body possesses now? What sovereignty did I enjoy that a foreign body possesses now? One of us is not living in Canada.

How about this:

Chapter 11

Another contentious issue is the impact of the investment obligations contained in Chapter 11 of the NAFTA.[28] Chapter 11 allows corporations or individuals to sue Mexico, Canada, or the United States for compensation when actions taken by those governments (or by those for whom they are responsible at international law, such as provincial, state, or municipal governments) have adversely affected their investments.
This chapter has been invoked in cases where governments have passed laws or regulations with intent to protect their constituents and their resident businesses' profits. Language in the chapter defining its scope states that it cannot be used to "prevent a Party from providing a service or performing a function such as law enforcement, correctional services, income security or insurance, social security or insurance, social welfare, public education, public training, health, and child care, in a manner that is not inconsistent with this Chapter.[29]"
This also accounts for the high volume of debt which is increased in the Mexican environments throughout the country and the various manifestos that implement themselves on this particular view.
This chapter has been criticized by groups in the U.S.[30]", Mexico[31] and Canada[32] for a variety of reasons, including not taking into account important social and environmental considerations. In Canada, several groups, including the Council of Canadians, challenged the constitutionality of Chapter 11. They lost at the trial level,[33] and have subsequently appealed.
Methanex, a Canadian corporation, filed a US$970 million suit against the United States, claiming that a California ban on MTBE, a substance that had found its way into many wells in the state, was hurtful to the corporation's sales of methanol. However, the claim was rejected, and the company was ordered to pay US$3 million to the U.S. government in costs.[34]
In another case Metalclad, an American corporation, was awarded US$15.6 million from Mexico after a Mexican municipality refused a construction permit for the hazardous waste landfill it intended to construct in El Llano, Aguascalientes. The construction had already been approved by the federal government with various environmental requirements imposed (see paragraph 48 of the tribunal decision). The NAFTA panel found that the municipality did not have the authority to ban construction on the basis of the alleged environmental concerns[35]
Further, it has been argued that the chapter benefits the interests of Canadian and American corporations disproportionately more than Mexican businesses, which often lack the resources to pursue a suit against the much wealthier states.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
 

jimshort19

Electoral Member
Nov 24, 2007
476
11
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Zurich
Thank goodness for recourse

"Chapter 11 allows corporations or individuals to sue..."

Excellent. There is justice. And so far you show one case where the suit was properly rejected (California) and another where it was justified and won (Mexico). Now, a Canadian company cannot poison Californians under the ageement, and a mexican town can't use corruption to favour the local contractor. Why do you pick examples that are bad for your case?

I have lost my power to pollute to foreigners? Who is poisoning the Californians in my place? Mexicans have usurped my sovereign ability to be be beaten by bribes? Who is being beaten by bribes in my place?

You hate free trade, but why? What do you think it stands for? What do you fear that is remotely real?
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
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Das Kapital
Said1, cool poem.

Said some unnumbered left wing scholar, "Free trade agreements take away soveranty from the people and give that power to unelected foreign bodies."

We nearly went naked when we were forced to make space arms instead of sneakers. Taco Bell drove the chipwagon out of town. But I lost my sovereign nation and now pay tax to the foreign devils? There is no end of real evil that trade can do, but if it's free, then we're not?

You need to stop reading the leftist funnies. You wake up in the undisputed greatest trading nation on Earth (per capita and maybe 70 years in a row), as free and sovereign as in any nation on Earth, and you come up with this vacant drivel?

What power did I once have that a foreign body possesses now? What sovereignty did I enjoy that a foreign body possesses now? One of us is not living in Canada.

What poem? :toothy4:
 

jimshort19

Electoral Member
Nov 24, 2007
476
11
18
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Zurich
Said1 disowns own poem

'This morning I work up
feeling brand new and I jumped up
feeling my highs, and lows
In my soul, and my goals
Just to stop smoking, and stop drinking
And I've been thinkin - I've got my reasons
Just to get by' -
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
53
Das Kapital
'This morning I work up
feeling brand new and I jumped up
feeling my highs, and lows
In my soul, and my goals
Just to stop smoking, and stop drinking
And I've been thinkin - I've got my reasons
Just to get by' -

Opps. They're song lyrics - sung by a bunch of rappers. I forget who wrote it originally.
 

jimshort19

Electoral Member
Nov 24, 2007
476
11
18
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Zurich
Spellcheck Please

You didn't write Said1's poem? You don't write cool poetry? Where am i going wrong here? Bad taste? I must be losing it. What are we on about now? This has nothing to do with the Captalism vs Nothing arguement does it? Can we move on to a feminist interpretation of the poem?

Admittedly, I cannot spell, but I mean well.
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
1,352
15
38
Calgary
"Chapter 11 allows corporations or individuals to sue..."

Excellent. There is justice. And so far you show one case where the suit was properly rejected (California) and another where it was justified and won (Mexico). Now, a Canadian company cannot poison Californians under the ageement, and a mexican town can't use corruption to favour the local contractor. Why do you pick examples that are bad for your case?

I have lost my power to pollute to foreigners? Who is poisoning the Californians in my place? Mexicans have usurped my sovereign ability to be be beaten by bribes? Who is being beaten by bribes in my place?

You hate free trade, but why? What do you think it stands for? What do you fear that is remotely real?

I'm not trying to prove anything. I was just answering your question of how decisions under trade agreements become further remove power from the individual. We cannot overrule these decisions in foreign courts though our electoral process without scrapping the agreement completely. I never said these courts make bad decisions it is just that these courts further disempower the individual.

On another point someone asked if we can scrap NAFTA. I think we can. Why do we need trade agreements to trade freely? That is the position of the libertarian party of Canada. There position is just to allow people to trade with who every they want and forget about trade agreements.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
You didn't write Said1's poem? You don't write cool poetry? Where am i going wrong here? Bad taste? I must be losing it. What are we on about now? This has nothing to do with the Captalism vs Nothing arguement does it? Can we move on to a feminist interpretation of the poem?

Admittedly, I cannot spell, but I mean well.


Don't worry about the spelling man just guess that's what I do. All the really usefull words are spelled the same way any how watch----****, ****, piss, ***** etc, see what I mean you can construct a sentence out of them.
 

jimshort19

Electoral Member
Nov 24, 2007
476
11
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Zurich
Said1 Song Theif

So we've pretty much established that Said1 the imposter poet is in fact a rap lyrics theif. I knew that guy belonged in jail, I knew it.

"On another point someone asked if we can scrap NAFTA. I think we can. Why do we need trade agreements to trade freely? That is the position of the libertarian party of Canada."

When we do get real free trade, worldwide, full and final, UN regulated perhaps, agreements may be scrapped. The agreement that we have can then be looked at as limiting, an anti-free trade agreeement, and the leftists would have to turn their jargon all around.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
So we've pretty much established that Said1 the imposter poet is in fact a rap lyrics theif. I knew that guy belonged in jail, I knew it.

"On another point someone asked if we can scrap NAFTA. I think we can. Why do we need trade agreements to trade freely? That is the position of the libertarian party of Canada."

When we do get real free trade, worldwide, full and final, UN regulated perhaps, agreements may be scrapped. The agreement that we have can then be looked at as limiting, an anti-free trade agreeement, and the leftists would have to turn their jargon all around.

Yeah, ya got to wonder what the free part is what?