AVRO Arrow. One of the saddest Canadian Aviation tales

[Cobalt_Kid]

Cancelling the Arrow was a massive gift to the US Aerospace industry, 35,000 of the highest qualified scientist and workers went south to jobs in the private and public sector. Thousands of Canadians helped put men on the moon at NASA and their knowledge was valuable in a whole host of aviation advancements in private US industry.

The Arrow 2 itself was just the first step in a whole line of aircraft being planned, the Arrow 3 might have been capable of Mach 3 dash. While the weapons system was the biggest roadblock, cancelling the entire program to buy ineffective SAMs and obsolecent CF-101 interceptors was a betrayal of Canadian industry and workers.

 

[#juan]

And I agree, my only assertion was that as it was, it could 1) Over take its own ordinance of the day, 2) It was not built to withstand the g-forces produced by the ordinance that would eventually come from its own existance. So as i was trying to say, it was shooting itself out of the sky in its day.

Hence it would require a complete rebuild, right off the table. That in and of itself would like prove costly, benefitial and well worth the effort, but I don't think even Liberal Gov't of that time would have been willing to spend that kind of money.

What you don't understand, is that even the newest fighters are not supersonic with bombs or tanks under the wings. The Arrow could have had a couple Sidewinder rails, or Sparrow pylons without a big speed penalty.
Re-read Jan Zurakowski's interview

 

[CDNBear]

Cancelling the Arrow was a massive gift to the US Aerospace industry, 35,000 of the highest qualified scientist and workers went south to jobs in the private and public sector. Thousands of Canadians helped put men on the moon at NASA and their knowledge was valuable in a whole host of aviation advancements in private US industry.

The Arrow 2 itself was just the first step in a whole line of aircraft being planned, the Arrow 3 might have been capable of Mach 3 dash. While the weapons system was the biggest roadblock, cancelling the entire program to buy ineffective SAMs and obsolecent CF-101 interceptors was a betrayal of Canadian industry and workers.

Can't argue with that...

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

What you don't understand, is that even the newest fighters are not supersonic with bombs or tanks under the wings. The Arrow could have had a couple Sidewinder rails, or Sparrow pylons without a big speed penalty.
Re-read Jan Zurakowski's interview

I'm with you, the Arrow was years ahead of it's rivals, it introduced automatic flight control systems and long range interception ability that was unparalleled. The closest US aircraft at the time, the F-106, wasn't even close in capabilities.

 

[CDNBear]

What you don't understand, is that even the newest fighters are not supersonic with bombs or tanks under the wings. The Arrow could have had a couple Sidewinder rails, or Sparrow pylons without a big speed penalty.
Re-read Jan Zurakowski's interview

With the munitions of the day, on or off the Arrow, she over shot her all contemporary weapons systems. That's a fact.

Her advancements and her capablities paved the way for the weapons systems we see today. That too is a fact.

Had she not existed when she did, we would like not be where we are today with regards to air to air weapons systems.

So yes I do understand, my only point was that you gave her a lil to much praise, not that she isn't deserving of a great deal. But as she sat, she was not going to last that long. She was breaking ground in to may areas to be so.

So lets agree to disagree, you won't convince me otherwise, and visa versa.

 

[lone wolf]

And I agree, my only assertion was that as it was, it could 1) Over take its own ordinance of the day, 2) It was not built to withstand the g-forces produced by the ordinance that would eventually come from its own existance. So as i was trying to say, it was shooting itself out of the sky in its day.

Hence it would require a complete rebuild, right off the table. That in and of itself would like prove costly, benefitial and well worth the effort, but I don't think even Liberal Gov't of that time would have been willing to spend that kind of money.

Hell, the CF 100 overtook its own ordinance. As an interceptor, Arrow had failings - teething pains. But the platform she provided was leaps and bounds ahead of anything in its day.

Ironic to know Avro had a jet transport in the air long before the Yanks - just a week behind another Brit - DeHavilland - yet, with the exception of the Clunk, the American-footed products of Canadair - North Star and CF 86 - were the ones our Government took seriously.

Wolf

 

[CDNBear]

Hell, the CF 100 overtook its own ordinance. As an interceptor, Arrow had failings - teething pains. But the platform she provided was leaps and bounds ahead of anything in its day.

Yes, I stated that way on back...But that does not equate into the Arrow still being a viable weapons platform. I'm not arguing the fact that she was well...well...well...ahead of her time, she was like alien technology at that time, hell she set precident.

But as far as weapons platforms go, she was on her way out a decade ago, not that I expect all to agree, some people still think the civilian Sea Kings we operate are good enough...Most of the aeronautical technology that is still in use in both the US and Canada as well as abroad, is obsolete, but they beat the competion hands down, so it only seems to be top-knotch...

 

[#juan]

Hell, the CF 100 overtook its own ordinance. As an interceptor, Arrow had failings - teething pains. But the platform she provided was leaps and bounds ahead of anything in its day.

Ironic to know Avro had a jet transport in the air long before the Yanks - just a week behind another Brit - DeHavilland - yet, with the exception of the Clunk, the American-footed products of Canadair - North Star and CF 86 - were the ones our Government took seriously.

Wolf

I once read that what helped kill the Arrow was it's enclosed weapons bay and the cold war. The Arrow was designed as an interceptor but there was nothing stopping us from using it as a supersonic bomber. That weapons bay could easily have carried a couple of nuclear devices. The Arrow would have replaced the CF-100s on the four fighter wings in France and Germany. It had a range of over 800 miles on internal fuel only and I think it made quite a few countries a bit nervous. Why else would they have destroyed all the completed aircraft and all the engines and components?

 

[CDNBear]

I once read that what helped kill the Arrow was it's enclosed weapons bay and the cold war. The Arrow was designed as an interceptor but there was nothing stopping us from using it as a supersonic bomber. That weapons bay could easily have carried a couple of nuclear devices. The Arrow would have replaced the CF-100s on the four fighter wings in France and Germany. It had a range of over 800 miles on internal fuel only and I think it made quite a few countries a bit nervous.

Neat thought...

Why else would they have destroyed all the completed aircraft and all the engines and components?

Because some asshat in Ottawa was pocketed by some corporate asshat in Washington?

 

[gerryh]

Why else would they have destroyed all the completed aircraft and all the engines and components?

and we know this happened because the gov. says so? Has anyone talked to someone that worked on the project? Was there when the hammer was lowered? I have. I know someone that helped build those engines. Someone who was there when those engines and parts were "destroyed". Take a wild guess as to what I was told.

 

[CDNBear]

and we know this happened because the gov. says so? Has anyone talked to someone that worked on the project? Was there when the hammer was lowered? I have. I know someone that helped build those engines. Someone who was there when those engines and parts were "destroyed". Take a wild guess as to what I was told.

They were created and labelled..."SHIP TO: JPL"...Ya I'ld buy that.

 

[gerryh]

They were created and labelled..."SHIP TO: JPL"...Ya I'ld buy that.

Weren't labeled as "parts".....didn't go straight to JPL, but were shipped south as well as Britain. The government would have us believe that EVERYTHING was scrapped and destroyed. There are also "rumors" that at least 2 complete airframes were also shipped out of country. For that I don't have an "eye witness".

 

[lone wolf]

and we know this happened because the gov. says so? Has anyone talked to someone that worked on the project? Was there when the hammer was lowered? I have. I know someone that helped build those engines. Someone who was there when those engines and parts were "destroyed". Take a wild guess as to what I was told.

I'm all ears.... I know in every aerial photo I've seen of the line-up in various stages of destruction, 205 was missing.

Wolf

 

[gerryh]

"rumour" is that 105 was flown out at night. My "source" states that he heard her take off one night but he didn't actually see her leave. But, he did see the engines etc. crated and shipped out.

 

[Curiosity]

Shipped out in the dead of night - sounds a bit blackmarkety....

Aren't obsolete aircraft parted out and sold to other interested people rather than kept as storage and waste?

I thought that is what most equipment including aircraft were handled - if there were interested groups willing to purchase in order to replicate or improve.

Thing is either you are going to commit to a well-equipped military (which includes purchasing or rebuilding new) or you are downsizing and selling off what you do not intend to use.

It has nothing to do with the abilities of the Avro at all. I would rather see a craft reused and restored and rebuilt or modified than to see it rot in some hangar.

 

[lone wolf]

Wizardry of some sort. It was as if these planes didn't exist at all. Plans, jigs - everything just ceased to be. Whomever pulled the strings didn't want Arrow out there.

Wolf

 

[#juan]

My hubby's going through there on Monday... I'll see if I can get him to do it for #juan. LOL. I think he'd gladly help.

I somehow missed your post....sorry

If your hubby did the heroic deed, I will cheer loud enough for you to hear at home.....:lol:

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Why else would they have destroyed all the completed aircraft and all the engines and components?

Destroying all the prototypes, tools, jigs and most blueprints meant there would be no possibility of a succeeding government ressurecting the program. Not only did Deif want to kill the Arrow, he wanted to make sure it stayed dead.

 

[#juan]

Yes, I stated that way on back...But that does not equate into the Arrow still being a viable weapons platform. I'm not arguing the fact that she was well...well...well...ahead of her time, she was like alien technology at that time, hell she set precident.

But as far as weapons platforms go, she was on her way out a decade ago, not that I expect all to agree, some people still think the civilian Sea Kings we operate are good enough...Most of the aeronautical technology that is still in use in both the US and Canada as well as abroad, is obsolete, but they beat the competion hands down, so it only seems to be top-knotch...

I somehow missed this post. You say "she was well on her way out a decade ago". The Arrow was designed and built fifty years ago so for her to last forty years was pretty damn special.. Twenty years would have been merely great.

 

[CDNBear]

I somehow missed this post. You say "she was well on her way out a decade ago". The Arrow was designed and built fifty years ago so for her to last forty years was pretty damn special.. Twenty years would have been merely great.

I never disputed that fact...