Panhandlers

[Twila]

And fetal alcohol syndrome is caused by what?

Well I'm sure your trying to lead me to something, but I'll follow none the less...

by alcohol use during pregnancy. So if a mother with FAS drinks while pregnant they'll have a child with FAS too. And since the comprehension is missing...it's a sad sad tale.
Wanna try what brings on Schizophrenia? Or how about Aspergers syndrome, or dissociative disorder? Will that help you somehow prove it's their fault?

 

[Unforgiven]

Giving people more access to heroin only creates more heroin addicts. Heroin addicts don't get along fine. None of them do.

No it doesn't. And yes some do.

 

[Kreskin]

No it doesn't. And yes some do.

Baloney. Name one.

 

[Twila]

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.ht

 

[Kreskin]

You see, you know nothing about addiction.
Why do you think that addiction is just someone choosing to do something?
It is as much that as it would be your choice to drink a glass of water every half hour with two BC Lions offensive tackle linesmen standing behind you putting the hurt on you every thirty one minutes until you drank the water.

Why do you think you can't get away from that stuff? Do you think that the two junkies have never been arrested? Chances are the've been through the "system" any number of times. Hence why I am saying that the current system doesn't and will not work.

I understand how addiction works. I've also seen firsthand the difference between someone who drinks a few pints of beer a day and someone who smokes crack once or twice a day. I've had a family member steal from their parents, practically financially ruining their entire family, in an effort to feed a drug habit. If they could manage work and do that it wouldn't be a problem. They could get the crap for next to nothing, but the more they did the more useless they became. They didn't show up for work, were often fired from deadend jobs. It wasn't a bad marketing problem it was a drug problem. No amount of condoning their use would have made them more effective in their daily lives. They were never arrested or given criminal records but they now do have little or no education as a result of their endeavours to live hour to hour on drugs and not make a future for themselves. And statistically their dysfunctional lives will create families that continue the cycle. No amount of legalization will create the conditions where a heroin addict will become a productive member of the workforce. Thus, legalization is not the issue. Stopping the supply that starts the cycle is.

 

[Unforgiven]

I understand how addiction works. I've also seen firsthand the difference between someone who drinks a few pints of beer a day and someone who smokes crack once or twice a day. I've had a family member steal from their parents, practically financially ruining their entire family, in an effort to feed a drug habit. If they could manage work and do that it wouldn't be a problem. They could get the crap for next to nothing, but the more they did the more useless they became. They didn't show up for work, were often fired from deadend jobs. It wasn't a bad marketing problem it was a drug problem. No amount of condoning their use would have made them more effective in their daily lives. They were never arrested or given criminal records but they now do have little or no education as a result of their endeavours to live hour to hour on drugs and not make a future for themselves. And statistically their dysfunctional lives will create families that continue the cycle. No amount of legalization will create the conditions where a heroin addict will become a productive member of the workforce. Thus, legalization is not the issue. Stopping the supply that starts the cycle is.

I don't want to talk about specific family members as it is a very sensitive spot and there is no information for me to point to.

But I'd like to hear how you are going to stop the supply. I'd like to point out the record crop of poppies in Afghanistan this year despite military efforts to eradicate the crop.

 

[#juan]

I have to admit that those people I've known who've had a drug problem have all but destroyed their families. Parents, children, siblings, have all suffered because of a God damned addiction that literally all were warned about before hand. Institutionalizing these people is the only thing that will work If the relief is only temporary for some, so be it,....do it again.....better than ruining the whole family.

 

[Kreskin]

I don't want to talk about specific family members as it is a very sensitive spot and there is no information for me to point to.

But I'd like to hear how you are going to stop the supply. I'd like to point out the record crop of poppies in Afghanistan this year despite military efforts to eradicate the crop.

Why do people sell it? The return outweighs the risk. Too many bleeding heart excuses for their behavior. If you don't succeed the first time wait a couple of years and do it again; 3 strikes your out temporarily. We need to make it clear the risk outweighs the return. One strike, you're out. Selling drugs should be treated in the same light as murder and rape because the consequences of those actions aren't much different.

 

[Cosmo]

You seem to have the time to talk to them (which I have volenteering at a soup kitchen and running a program at Christmas time for poor families) running your errands but no time to help? I'm not suggesting you literally pick them up yourself but pressure all levels of government to lend them a hand up instead of your handout.

Most people on the street have some severe issue menatlly or addictiction so the lazy ones are few but they are out there, my nephew is one of them. He just refuses to work and has ended up on the street when he comes from a strong family with many success stories....I don't feel sorry for him one bit.

No, I am not the other Avro, the only other forum I've really been to is CKA. I'm not sure how anyone has the time for more than one with running errands and all.

Ok, Avro -- since we haven't interacted before, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to assume your post was presented in good fun, tongue in cheek in places and not being an a$$hole. FYI ... I don't suffer attitude gladly. I have enough of my own, thanks.

What makes you think I don't do more than drop a dollar here and there? You assume too much, Kemosabe.

As for your nephew, well, my heartfelt sympathies on that. No matter what the back story, having one of our "own" out there is tough. My nephew, as well, is one of our disenfranchised thanks to FAS. I can do absolutely nothing for the kid. Very sad.

Unforgiven ...

You see, you know nothing about addiction.

You seem to not want to follow along here.

Okay ... I don't know you from a sack of rice, Unforgiven, but I must say that the way you express yourself is often patronizing and condescending. You have some good points and valid thoughts, but geez, man, do you have to be so superior about them? We'd be more likely to listen and give them due consideration if you found ways to express yourself without the pit bull attitude. Just sayin.

I do agree with you, though, that "The only way to stop that is to take control of the market." Not so easy to do, but certainly the only way to make a dint in the problem.

Here's some interesting reading in support of legalizing it.

Legalized Drugs Light the Way

Success of ...

WorldandNation article


Kreskin ...

People with mental health and disability issues can often find programs where they can rent social housing based on a % of their income - generally 30%.

In theory this is a good thing. In practice it's not that simple. I'm on disability and have looked into the low cost housing issue. There are huge waiting lists for the few available places. There are restrictions on pets -- I have a Jack Russell that is not only part of my family, but that also contributes to my health regime by forcing me to exercise even when I really, really don't want to. Giving her up is not an option. And I'm relatively mentally stable (got the paperwork!). The folks who are less than mentally healthy would have a tough time jumping through the government hoops to access this option.

All in all, this is a great debate! I'm enjoying the various opinions.

 

[Avro]

Ok, Avro -- since we haven't interacted before, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to assume your post was presented in good fun, tongue in cheek in places and not being an a$$hole. FYI ... I don't suffer attitude gladly. I have enough of my own, thanks.

What makes you think I don't do more than drop a dollar here and there? You assume too much, Kemosabe.

As for your nephew, well, my heartfelt sympathies on that. No matter what the back story, having one of our "own" out there is tough. My nephew, as well, is one of our disenfranchised thanks to FAS. I can do absolutely nothing for the kid. Very sad.

You just said you had no time other than to throw them a few bucks due to errands, what am I suppose to assume? If you do more perhaps you should enlighten me on your good deeds.

It still does not address the fact that some people are just plain lazy, running a buisness as I have gives you good insight to this.

 

[Cosmo]

You just said you had no time other than to throw them a few bucks due to errands, what am I suppose to assume? If you do more perhaps you should enlighten me on your good deeds.

It still does not address the fact that some people are just plain lazy, running a buisness as I have gives you good insight to this.

My exact words were, "Unfortunately, I don't have the time, influence or power to 'get the mentally ill off the streets' while I'm running my errands." What that means, Avro, is that I do what I can where I can. Your comments make it sound like I feel I'm doing some great service by an offhand gesture. Not true at all. I don't really feel the need to list my support activities here. ~shrug~ Your opinion on my efforts are not all that important to me. I sleep okay at night.

You are right. Some people are just plain lazy. Some people with jobs are just plain lazy! Ever work for the government? I have. Yi. Talk about dead wood.

In my experience, though, the people on the streets have a whole lot bigger issues than laziness. If it were that simple, I'd be a happy camper. Like you, I've run my own business and know what it takes. That's kinda the extreme opposite end of the scale, I'd say. As mentioned in the rest of this thread, the greater issues are addition, mental illness and plain old bad judgement. Once you're on the streets, it isn't so easy to get back off. That's why it's up to folks like you and me to lobby for them. When you are existing in a survival mode you don't have a lot of time or energy to put into social reform.

 

[Unforgiven]

I have to admit that those people I've known who've had a drug problem have all but destroyed their families. Parents, children, siblings, have all suffered because of a God damned addiction that literally all were warned about before hand. Institutionalizing these people is the only thing that will work If the relief is only temporary for some, so be it,....do it again.....better than ruining the whole family.

The same can be said for alcoholics. We have plenty living on the streets of Toronto. Everyone is tired of looking at homeless but few if any want to get to finding out what the problem is.

 

[Avro]

In other words you do nothing other than flipping them a loonie or two. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself for it.

Oh, and yes I have worked for the government and found no difference in the private sector.

 

[Unforgiven]

Why do people sell it? The return outweighs the risk. Too many bleeding heart excuses for their behavior. If you don't succeed the first time wait a couple of years and do it again; 3 strikes your out temporarily. We need to make it clear the risk outweighs the return. One strike, you're out. Selling drugs should be treated in the same light as murder and rape because the consequences of those actions aren't much different.

People sell it for a few reasons. Mostly because it's a job they can do and they make enough money to support their habit. There is so much money in it.

Well if you really want to make sure there is an end to drugs in Canada, all you need to do is suspend the Charter, put paramilitary in the streets and check every member of the public five or ten times a day. And you should really have a few special units to handle the on going open warfare in the streets. You could probably consider Gaza or any of the Palestinian occupied areas as a vision for your utopia.

Of course you aren't going to get the manufactures of the drug, they are for the most part elsewhere. You may if you are lucky, find a cook now and again who makes Crystal Meth and plenty of people growing pot. But if you really want to get the guys who are sending multi- ton shipments into the country, then you need to take a military over to Afghanistan and fight the Taliban. Of course they are the innocent people we are killing now so go figure.

We can put all sorts of things into the same light as murder and rape but that hasn't stopped murder and rape at all. As a matter of fact, in Toronto, the murder rate is climbing. And this right after the politicians thumped many a podium and lectern announcing how they were going to put more police on the streets, and clean this mess up, blah blah blah.

Now that we got tough on that, what is it that has cause exactly the opposite to happen as a result?

 

[Unforgiven]

Okay ... I don't know you from a sack of rice, Unforgiven, but I must say that the way you express yourself is often patronizing and condescending. You have some good points and valid thoughts, but geez, man, do you have to be so superior about them? We'd be more likely to listen and give them due consideration if you found ways to express yourself without the pit bull attitude. Just sayin

Exactly you don't know me.

 

[Cosmo]

Maybe that's not a bad thing, Unforgiven. Perhaps we should simply side step one another. You and Avro seem to be peas in a pod so I'll just stay outta that particular section of the garden and save myself some aggravation. I'll just read ya when I come here in my occasional snarly moods.

 

[#juan]

The same can be said for alcoholics. We have plenty living on the streets of Toronto. Everyone is tired of looking at homeless but few if any want to get to finding out what the problem is.

Hang on a minute. We pay good money in taxes to handle this sort of thing. I don't care if the addiction is drugs or alcohol. Panhandlers hurt a lot of other businesses. Tourism for one, suffers because of panhandlers We can call them homeless but I'm not going to feel guilty because I didn't put them there. Most of them put themselves there. The honestly down and out should be in an institution. If we need to pay a bit more in taxes I will gladly pay them.

 

[Unforgiven]

Hang on a minute. We pay good money in taxes to handle this sort of thing. I don't care if the addiction is drugs or alcohol. Panhandlers hurt a lot of other businesses. Tourism for one, suffers because of panhandlers We can call them homeless but I'm not going to feel guilty because I didn't put them there. Most of them put themselves there. The honestly down and out should be in an institution. If we need to pay a bit more in taxes I will gladly pay them.

It's not about blame. Find someone to blame and it changes nothing. They are there and we're not dealing with them. You're right it does hurt tourism especially aggressive panhandling. But we have to separate those in crisis from those on the make. Both require a specific remedy.

The problem with insitutions is that they end up as a away to hide the problem rather than deal with it. While they always start out with the best intentions, they get cut back and cut back because no one ever moblizes people to stop them. And if it is private sector no one can afford the place that needs the place.

While it's a direction to go in, I don't think it's the answer.

 

[#juan]

We have to get them off the street. We have to give them a name and we have to give them an address. The street is no place for anyone. Hell, they fight each other over their beggings.

 

[Kreskin]

People sell it for a few reasons. Mostly because it's a job they can do and they make enough money to support their habit. There is so much money in it.

Well if you really want to make sure there is an end to drugs in Canada, all you need to do is suspend the Charter, put paramilitary in the streets and check every member of the public five or ten times a day. And you should really have a few special units to handle the on going open warfare in the streets. You could probably consider Gaza or any of the Palestinian occupied areas as a vision for your utopia.

Of course you aren't going to get the manufactures of the drug, they are for the most part elsewhere. You may if you are lucky, find a cook now and again who makes Crystal Meth and plenty of people growing pot. But if you really want to get the guys who are sending multi- ton shipments into the country, then you need to take a military over to Afghanistan and fight the Taliban. Of course they are the innocent people we are killing now so go figure.

We can put all sorts of things into the same light as murder and rape but that hasn't stopped murder and rape at all. As a matter of fact, in Toronto, the murder rate is climbing. And this right after the politicians thumped many a podium and lectern announcing how they were going to put more police on the streets, and clean this mess up, blah blah blah.

Now that we got tough on that, what is it that has cause exactly the opposite to happen as a result?

I suppose using the same logic as the drug issue you might want to legalize murder and rape, however you'll have a far bigger murder and rape problem than there is now.

People aren't living in the streets because of marijuana. What has caused places like the downtown eastside of Vancouver to disintegrate is meth, cocaine and heroin, and the unofficial, and at times even official, condoned possession and use of them (shooting galleries). The lack of penalty for producing and pushing death products in our streets; methampetamines included (a maximum 10 year sentence under the CDSA). When was the last time anyone served a maximum sentence? Sellers know that the return far exceeds the risk. The present-day do-nothing approach has not worked. Anyone caught producing meth should be gone for life, no parole for 25. We wouldn't treat a terrorist building explosives any different, even though terrorists don't cause the degree of problems that drug traffickers do. The intent of traffickers is to get people hopelessly addicted to life and family-ruining drugs for material gain. It's utter nonsense that we don't prosecute them like we would any other terrorists.