Is there a God ?
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That implies that there's an absolute good and an absolute evil, which isn't true. Here's how:look3467 said:
Say you see a man being chased by another man in a street. Let's say that maybe the man had stolen something. So you'd jump in front of him and the man chasing him would apprehend him. You'd have helped end the robbery, and you've done the chaser a great deal of good. But what about the thief? You've done him some evil, haven't you? He needs money just like everyone else. Perhaps he grew up in poverty. Perhaps he's applied for numerous jobs and hasn't been accepted, so his only remaining source of income is through illicit means. To him, you are evil, to a degree.
And if you do the opposite, and help the man chasing the other, then maybe you have saved the chased man from being attacked for the wrong reason. You've done the chased a measure of good, but again, you've gone the chaser a measure of evil.
And if you do nothing and let the two resolve their differences, your ignorance would be a measure of evil, while not having interfered may be a measure of good to yourself. The only way for you to be universally good here is if, say, the thief had stolen a lamp, and you introduced another lamp, so that they both had a lamp. But then, there are other factors surrounding the second lamp. For example, you've resolidified the lust for material in them both, or corrupted the idea of fairness by removing the consequences of theft. If the chaser had lost a lamp, yet offering him another lamp quenched his need and he was happy with simply having a lamp, then he most certainly would not have given the lamp to the thief - he would remain instilled with the idea that people need material, and that material is sacred and should not change hands without due compensation, which is why poverty exists. So even in bringing in a second lamp, you've done a measure of evil.
Thus, for every good, there is evil, and vice versa. So God or Satan are not needed to have good or evil. As long as one exists, there is the opposite.
One could say this of any species. Species other than humans exhibit learned or unusual behavior. For example, elephants use the suction of their trunks to bathe themselves rather than submerging themselves in the water like other species. And what about all those stories of things like a pig sitting on eggs because the hen could not? Besides, natural selection explains mankind's behaviors. Clothes due to the ice age, speech due to the communication of reasoning, construction due to the need to adapt, etc.
What about apes? There've been observations of apes using tools. This means they must have the ability to organize and to choose. If that's true, then God must have given this gift to other beings as well.
That part has never made sense to me. Why, if we were in the presence of God before being born, did He send us down here with no memories of Him at all, and tell us to believe in Him, until 70 or 80 years later (a tiny amount of time when compared to everlasting life) when we die? What's the point of testing our faith (if that's why He did it) if our faith is unshaken in heaven regardless of Earth, due to directly being in his presence? If God knows all things, then why would He feel the need to test our faith, since He would know its extent prior even to our creation?
Not necessarily. Through the eyes of the flesh, we can consider astrology, which holds a near-perfect allegorical explanation of the Bible and its events. For example, from December 22 to 24 (a three-day period), the sun reaches its lowest point in the sky, and rests within the Crux ("the Cross") constellation. Then, on December 25, the three brightest stars in Orion's Belt (even now referred to as the "Three Kings") line up with the brightest star in the sky, the Eastern Star (Sirius Alpha) in a line that leads directly to the exact point at which the sun (or son, in the Bible) rises the next day, Christmas Day. That explains perfectly the story of the conception, the discovery by the Three Kings, the Eastern Star, and even the son's death on a cross and resurrection after three days (which isn't celebrated until the spring equinox, when the days become longer than the nights - or light overpowers dark - which is also known as Easter), etc.
As well, the sun entered into the "head" of the Virgo (the Virgin) constellation - explaining the immaculate conception. Not to mention that the day of worship on a given week in Christianity is Sunday.
Twelve disciples traveling about with Jesus - the Sun passing through the twelve signs of the zodiac. Being born again, dispelling the darkness and arriving through the clouds - the sunrise each day. Moses' reception of the Ten Commandments just as the people are worshiping a false idol - the procession of the equinoxes from Tauros the Bull, to Aries the Ram (and then, from Aries, to Pisces the Fish as Jesus is born, which lends itself to Jesus feeding a crowd with loaves of bread and two fish, as well as his meeting and befriending two fishermen, etc.) Jesus saying to follow a man, after his resurrection, who bears water and enters a house - the procession from Pisces the Fish to Aquarius the Waterbearer.
There are many such explanations for the Bible...but perhaps all the religions were worshipping the same God, and the stars are made by God such that they form an allegory of this story. Maybe. Although there's a lot of rivalry between religions - so maybe that's not true. It's not for me to say, either way.
But the grass returns to life in the next season. And man requires the other species of the Earth to survive - so how is man better than any other species? As I've mentioned earlier, apes have shown intelligence. So much so that they have actually had wars with each other, in which they had actually manufactured weapons out of sticks.
Unless you believe in reincarnation or, in fact, any separation between the body and the soul, which is as good an explanation of the afterlife as any in my opinion - and would also explain things like ghosts, recurring history, and other phenomena.
I've known how to walk for as long as I can remember...but I have seen video of me taking my first steps with the aid of my parents.
Please don't take this as anti-Christian...but I just feel that it's necessary to make a stance in the argument. Indeed, almost all of the mainstream religions have parallel holy stories, but this by itself may hint at one common God creating mankind, wouldn't it? On the other hand, the astrological things may be a coincidence - indeed, it's a known fact that those who conceived of the constellations were very biased in their conception. For instance, when you look at the Ursa Major, can you see a bear? Neither can I. Maybe the constellations come from the holy stories.
Either way, in the interest of continuing a logical debate, I've rebutted what I can with evidence, ignoring the ad hominem and downright disrespectful posts. Maybe we can save this thread from a certain flaming death, without simply disavowing it.
I would rather ask "my" God as you put it, that He strike the core of your heart by touching it with His Spirit of love and create you into a new creature fit for the kingdom of God.
Have I ignored anyone so far? Quite the opposite I would say.
Forgiveness is a Godly attitude of which there is no enemy.
If I have this forgiveness, then I have no enemies.
If I have no enemies, than who's beliefs would I fear?
Wouldn't you say that to be like Christ is total forgiveness?
Christ has no enemies, for He consumed them all in love.
I'm telling you, how can any mind turn down what is good and healthy thinking when forgiveness is at the core of one's words and actions?
If you, an unbeliever in God, did good to your neighbors, lived just, what wrong would I have to say about it?
I would compliment you for I would know that the goodness you would display is God's goodness and not your own.
If a Muslim, a Catholic, a protestant or an unbeliever in God did good deeds, works, than all good done is the goodness of the Lord demonstrated in all doer-er, though it may not be seen as such.
But since I came on this forum, I have not put one individual down for what they believe, but rather encouraged them to see a different view of God by my actions and comments.
Have I brought shame to my God? Have I not represented Him most highly to all posters?
I am a friend to all, but not all would consider me their friend.
And finally, fables won't hurt you, only you can hurt yourself.
Peace>>>AJ
Without intelligence, there can be no exercise of any good or any evil.
God is the intelligence and Satan is the world.
God is the Adam in spirit, while Eve is the flesh.
Both are one flesh, a marriage of spirit and flesh.
We did not exist prior to this existence, but being born of the flesh we have the opportunity to be born of the spirit of life, for ever more.
Being born of the flesh and given the gift of reason, God placed us in a condition by where we can test our reasoning power and hopefully, choose the good rather than the evil.
Of course there had to be some reference points as standards by which we could learn to discriminate.
In other words, suffer through them to learn what is good and right.
Animals have no reasoning power (intelligence) to discriminate good from evil.
All that you mentioned is beautifully created and denote the existence of an intelligent source.
That source has made itself known to mankind who knew not who it was.
And now through the bible we have that revelation of which can only be taken in faith.
Mankind is better because it is made after the image of God. Image of God is not the shape of the body, but the ability to discern like God, good from evil.
I don’t believe in reincarnation because I believe we pass through this world once only.
As I understand it, Jesus died once and for all.
Absolutely!
I fully respect your views and joyfully debate with you as you show a desire to learn something new which might be beneficial.
If I can share anything I know with you I will most gladly do it.
Peace>>>AJ
ya talloola yer definatly got my attention with that too.....
Made me think along:
i never wanted my daughter to be lesser than a man....how was it back in the day male parents enforced this on their daughters.....too weird for me to imagine...
Why was it women forcing their right to vote and not men forcing the right of their daughters to live as equals......
Made me think along:
i never wanted my daughter to be lesser than a man....how was it back in the day male parents enforced this on their daughters.....too weird for me to imagine...
Why was it women forcing their right to vote and not men forcing the right of their daughters to live as equals......
Men aided it in their own way. It wouldn't have gotten anywhere if men hadn't backed their wives up. It wouldn't have gotten anywhere if the collective male world had just said 'Ah, shuddup.'
yeah ok...but what about the ones that had daughters and like no way no way you can't vote thats not your place and be a good lil wife crapolla...i mean where does this thinking come from 0_o
Look3467:
Just so this is clear between you and me:
You utterly misread/misrepresented what I wrote and what you wrote. This is a common tactic for you, and is part of the reason you are unworthy of dialogue.
I am writing this so you don't think your (dishonest) logic cowed me into silence.
Pangloss
Just so this is clear between you and me:
You utterly misread/misrepresented what I wrote and what you wrote. This is a common tactic for you, and is part of the reason you are unworthy of dialogue.
I am writing this so you don't think your (dishonest) logic cowed me into silence.
Pangloss
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Look3467 - AJ
You wrote earlier to Pangloss:
I would like to point out to you - even in your announcing of firmly entrenched faith (nonnegotiable as you write) you deny others' beliefs with your rhetorical preaching.
I wonder why you adopt this method of communicating only what you find acceptable in your belief system, without acknowledging others?
Could this rigid thinking occur out of fear that you might hear new words of enlightenment or perhaps that your own closed doors may be opened and the old information questioned.
I challenge you sir to spend some time listening to others who do question - or are you incapable?
Each human of sound mind is unique and finds worship either a part of his/her life or not.
Your attempt at judging others through your own belief is unChristlike - as the passed down accounts tell us Christ himself accepted and welcomed all.
You wrote earlier to Pangloss:
I would like to point out to you - even in your announcing of firmly entrenched faith (nonnegotiable as you write) you deny others' beliefs with your rhetorical preaching.
I wonder why you adopt this method of communicating only what you find acceptable in your belief system, without acknowledging others?
Could this rigid thinking occur out of fear that you might hear new words of enlightenment or perhaps that your own closed doors may be opened and the old information questioned.
I challenge you sir to spend some time listening to others who do question - or are you incapable?
Each human of sound mind is unique and finds worship either a part of his/her life or not.
Your attempt at judging others through your own belief is unChristlike - as the passed down accounts tell us Christ himself accepted and welcomed all.
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies. - Nietzsche
Great quote Curiosity.
Also convictions like opinions tend be our best pets, pets we refuse to lose. Why we are so married to them I don't know. Is it that we need something solid, unchangeable, indestructible ???
Is there a "change index" to describe the ability of a person to change or accept change ?
We hold with an iron grip our beliefs and anger is right behind it all if changing and challenging come along.
Evangelising is a sonar echo, a mirror, a way of wanting everyone to be like ourselves.
Great quote Curiosity.
Also convictions like opinions tend be our best pets, pets we refuse to lose. Why we are so married to them I don't know. Is it that we need something solid, unchangeable, indestructible ???
Is there a "change index" to describe the ability of a person to change or accept change ?
We hold with an iron grip our beliefs and anger is right behind it all if changing and challenging come along.
Evangelising is a sonar echo, a mirror, a way of wanting everyone to be like ourselves.
Is there a God ,how are you going to find out? Are you going to accept somebody else's information? Or are you going to try to discover for yourself what God is? It is easy to ask questions, but to experience the truth requires a great deal of inquiry and search.
So the first question is: Are you going to accept what another says about God? It does not matter who it is, Krishna, Buddha, or Christ, because they may all be mistaken - and so may your own particular priest be mistaken. Surely, to find out what is true, your mind must be free to inquire, which means that it cannot merely accept or believe. I can give you a description of the truth, but it will not be the same thing as your experiencing the truth for yourself. All the sacred books describe what God is, but those descriptions are not God. The word God is not God, is it?To find out what is true you must never accept, you must never be influenced by what the books, the teachers, or what anyone else might say. If you are influenced by them, you will find only what they want you to find. And you must know that your own mind can create the image of what it wants; it can imagine God with a beard, or with one eye; it can make Him blue or purple. So you have to be aware of your desires and not be deceived by the projections of your own wants and longings. If you long to see God in a certain form, the image you see will be according to your wishes, and that image will not be God, will it? If you are in sorrow and want to be comforted, or if you feel sentimental and romantic in your religious aspirations, eventually you will create a God who will supply what you want, but it will still not be God. So your mind must be completely free, and only then can you find out what is true - not by the acceptance of some superstition, nor by the reading of the so-called sacred books, nor by following some guru. Only when you have this freedom, this real freedom from external influences as well as from your own desires and longings so that your mind is very clear - only then is it possible to find out what God is. But if you merely sit down and speculate, then your guess is as good as your priest's, and equally illusory.Is there / what is God?
So the first question is: Are you going to accept what another says about God? It does not matter who it is, Krishna, Buddha, or Christ, because they may all be mistaken - and so may your own particular priest be mistaken. Surely, to find out what is true, your mind must be free to inquire, which means that it cannot merely accept or believe. I can give you a description of the truth, but it will not be the same thing as your experiencing the truth for yourself. All the sacred books describe what God is, but those descriptions are not God. The word God is not God, is it?To find out what is true you must never accept, you must never be influenced by what the books, the teachers, or what anyone else might say. If you are influenced by them, you will find only what they want you to find. And you must know that your own mind can create the image of what it wants; it can imagine God with a beard, or with one eye; it can make Him blue or purple. So you have to be aware of your desires and not be deceived by the projections of your own wants and longings. If you long to see God in a certain form, the image you see will be according to your wishes, and that image will not be God, will it? If you are in sorrow and want to be comforted, or if you feel sentimental and romantic in your religious aspirations, eventually you will create a God who will supply what you want, but it will still not be God. So your mind must be completely free, and only then can you find out what is true - not by the acceptance of some superstition, nor by the reading of the so-called sacred books, nor by following some guru. Only when you have this freedom, this real freedom from external influences as well as from your own desires and longings so that your mind is very clear - only then is it possible to find out what God is. But if you merely sit down and speculate, then your guess is as good as your priest's, and equally illusory.Is there / what is God?
Ta Jim - for your words
I have made 180s much of my life - as I have spent the last 20 years in a learning mode - primarily learning about myself.
I have found that with me - convictions are absolutely fine as long as they can be regarded as temporary residents - easily moved on, out or reversed.
Nothing wrong with feeling strongly about a subject - it's the giving it up which tests its importance in our lives.
Sometimes convictions deny us growth.
I have made 180s much of my life - as I have spent the last 20 years in a learning mode - primarily learning about myself.
I have found that with me - convictions are absolutely fine as long as they can be regarded as temporary residents - easily moved on, out or reversed.
Nothing wrong with feeling strongly about a subject - it's the giving it up which tests its importance in our lives.
Sometimes convictions deny us growth.
Buddha was a man who taught us a way to live. He never once said there was a God or denied one. Even though he lived a society where everyone believed in God the creator.
In all sects of Buddhism a few of the Buddhas edicts if you will are taught.
Do not believe that any god or demon or me can help you.
Question authority.
There was a great japannese Buddhist sage Nichiren, a reformer as such and he Said "Heaven and Hell are contained in your 5 foot body."
The one aspect of Buddhists teaching i really am inclined to agree with is it is all up to the individual. Looking for outside help is always in vain.
I am also a great believer that there is a great inner power to be tapped if you will.
I also believe that spirituality is Love and Compassion. Any labeled spiritual practise that is not focused on generating this in oneself is not spirtual.
It's all about the here and now. Sitting round waiting for rewards in the afterlife is the work of evil men come to disalusion you.
In all sects of Buddhism a few of the Buddhas edicts if you will are taught.
Do not believe that any god or demon or me can help you.
Question authority.
There was a great japannese Buddhist sage Nichiren, a reformer as such and he Said "Heaven and Hell are contained in your 5 foot body."
The one aspect of Buddhists teaching i really am inclined to agree with is it is all up to the individual. Looking for outside help is always in vain.
I am also a great believer that there is a great inner power to be tapped if you will.
I also believe that spirituality is Love and Compassion. Any labeled spiritual practise that is not focused on generating this in oneself is not spirtual.
It's all about the here and now. Sitting round waiting for rewards in the afterlife is the work of evil men come to disalusion you.
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Both theists and non- live and see phenomena, like stars and life and the Earth, as they are, but explain their creation in different ways. Maybe the Bible was created to reflect this. The stars, in Shakespearean times, were fate. So maybe the fate of the world and the stars are the same, and so the links between astrology and the Christ story exist.
Atheists sometimes hold huge grudges against theists, as though atheism is a religion in and of itself. The vice is versa here as well. Meanwhile, many religious people have no problem with atheism, knowing that each person has their own right to believe what they want. All this despite the fact that every point of view is backable by either faith, its moral code, and logic.
The bottom line is, whatever works. God explains many things about the universe, and so does science and pantheism and nihilism and everything else.
God was a very early concept (because life is such a beautiful thing to most people, and a beautiful thing must have a creator, since beauty is rarely an accident), and so it is resonant in our society. Perhaps it's what stopped us from killing each other so long ago. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter any more except to those who believe, and so it does no harm and certainly does its believers a deal of good. That speaks for itself.
Atheists sometimes hold huge grudges against theists, as though atheism is a religion in and of itself. The vice is versa here as well. Meanwhile, many religious people have no problem with atheism, knowing that each person has their own right to believe what they want. All this despite the fact that every point of view is backable by either faith, its moral code, and logic.
The bottom line is, whatever works. God explains many things about the universe, and so does science and pantheism and nihilism and everything else.
God was a very early concept (because life is such a beautiful thing to most people, and a beautiful thing must have a creator, since beauty is rarely an accident), and so it is resonant in our society. Perhaps it's what stopped us from killing each other so long ago. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter any more except to those who believe, and so it does no harm and certainly does its believers a deal of good. That speaks for itself.
Jim:
I'm going to try to remember what I've read on "fixed ideas" from some evolutionary biologists - forgive me if I muddle this all up.
The theory says that when we were poorly-armed hunter-gatherers, we had to make decisions pretty fast about what is a threat, what is food, and what do do about either. Indecision would quite literally kill us.
Also, we had to come up with ways of improving on our hunting, etcetera practices, and if we tried every possible way of doing something, instead of picking one way and improving on it, we would have wasted time and energy that we couldn't afford, and we would have died of starvation or exposure or whatever.
Also, our intelligence as a species is dependent not on instinct, but on passed down knowledge. So, children that unquestioningly believe what they parents say ("Don't touch that hot thing" or "Don't eat that red berry") are the ones that will live to reproductive age. They, in turn, will indoctrinate their children in how to survive.
The connection to the persistence of opinions, including foolish religious belief is self-evident.
Pangloss
I'm going to try to remember what I've read on "fixed ideas" from some evolutionary biologists - forgive me if I muddle this all up.
The theory says that when we were poorly-armed hunter-gatherers, we had to make decisions pretty fast about what is a threat, what is food, and what do do about either. Indecision would quite literally kill us.
Also, we had to come up with ways of improving on our hunting, etcetera practices, and if we tried every possible way of doing something, instead of picking one way and improving on it, we would have wasted time and energy that we couldn't afford, and we would have died of starvation or exposure or whatever.
Also, our intelligence as a species is dependent not on instinct, but on passed down knowledge. So, children that unquestioningly believe what they parents say ("Don't touch that hot thing" or "Don't eat that red berry") are the ones that will live to reproductive age. They, in turn, will indoctrinate their children in how to survive.
The connection to the persistence of opinions, including foolish religious belief is self-evident.
Pangloss
I'm an aetheist.... but I'm not arrogant enough to say that I absolutely know or don't know whether God (gods?) exist. Even the most devoutly religious only has faith to go by... they don't know.
<img>JoeSchmoe ,
I like that.
What is the state of the mind that says, "I do not know whether there is God, whether there is no God, that is, when there is no response of memory? The mind that is capable of saying, "I do not know," is in the only state in which anything can be discovered. But the man who says, "I know," the man who has studied infinitely the varieties of human experience and whose mind is burdened with information, with encyclopedic knowledge, can he ever experience something which is not to be accumulated? He will find it extremely hard. When the mind totally puts aside all the knowledge that it has acquired, when for it there are no Buddhas, no Christs, no Masters, no teachers, no religions, no quotations; when the mind is completely alone, uncontaminated, which means that the movement of the known has come to an end - it is only then that there is a possibility of a tremendous revolution, a fundamental change , for him the blessing of the sacred comes into being.
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I like that.
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Forgive me for being the only dissenting voice, but China, one day I'm gonna spend a few hours reading your posts and figuring out why they all sound like such, well, unthought-out twaddle.
New age emptyheadedness. Falun Gong dropout pish-tosh.
I know I've offended you - but your posts really put my teeth on edge.
Pangloss
New age emptyheadedness. Falun Gong dropout pish-tosh.
I know I've offended you - but your posts really put my teeth on edge.
Pangloss
