Six days that shook the world

[iARTthere4iam]

Was the movie "Exodus" accurate? If you watch it you see that it was British occupied Palestine. The Jews had these underground organizations Urgun and Hagana, not sure of spelling.Anywho they went around blowing up things like the King David Hotel and the local prison and stuff like that. The Brits caved in and made Israel...Wonder what they would call those gurella orgs. today...hmmmmmm If it is true then this is a case of a country born from what we would call terroism...I dunno...maybe i read the movie all wrong...gonna watch it again.

In any case too many people dying, some say it's just machivalian tactics like Iraq and congo and nigeria and and and ...so the west, which we are,can rape the profit under mass confusion....i dunno .....

I haven't seen the film but I can tell you that the Irgun (radical anti-british group led by future PM Begin) and Hagana did exist as well as other groups such as the even more radical Stern group. The Hagana eventually became the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) and they did a great deal of underground activity. However the British did not establish Israel. The british recommended the establishment of a Jewish homeland in a part of Palestine (the Balfour declaration) which was under British Mandate since the end of WWI and the collapse of the Ottoman empire and the League of Nations made endorsed the plan. The United Nations voted to partition Palestine west of the Jordan River in 1947. Palestine was to be divided between the Jews and the Arabs. In 1948 the British withdrew from Palestine the next day Ben-Gurion announced the establishment of the state of Israel.
There had been fighting between the Jews and Arabs and British for decades before the establishment of Israel due in large part to Jewish immigration.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

The United Nations voted to partition Palestine west of the Jordan River in 1947. Palestine was to be divided between the Jews and the Arabs.

Does the area of land you are talking about resemble modern day Israel.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Does the area of land you are talking about resemble modern day Israel.

There is resemblance to the partition plan, but of course the West Bank (west bank of the Jordan River) the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights, which were captured during the Israeli victory of 1967 (the Six Day War) which saw Israel utterly destroy the Egyptian Air Force, are not included in the partition plan. The Golan heights aren't a part of Israel, Israel captured this area to stop Syria from shelling Jewish farms.

There are other differences between the partition plan and Israel today such as the Gaza strip also included a longer strip along the Egyptian border and the West Bank part of the Arab portion extended farther west toward the Mediteranian (and, of course, did not include Jewish settlements), furthermore an area of the north was to be Arab and Jerusalem was to be split among the two sides. You can likely find maps (mine are too large to post here and I don't have the time right now to alter the files).

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

You know this may be off topic but here goes.Oh hey thanks for your input iart.
I believe if Jerusalem were not owned or included in anyone's country the world would be a lot better for it. It is such a holy site for so many and three definte different religions, it makes sense for it to be of heaven and not of earth rule if you will.I don't know about the whole city of Jerusalem,if there is such a thing, but the ancient part should not be owned by anyone.
A vested interest by all would evolve in the area to remain sacred.

 

[earth_as_one]

Now that conquered territory is home to about 400,000 people living in Jewish only colonies, Jewish only highways with security buffer zones connecting them, an apartheid wall which separates the previous inhabitants from their property (which is then declared abandoned and seized by the state), sources of water, arable land...

Today, the original inhabitants, most of whom have never committed a violent act, find themselves surrounded by walls with guard towers under continuous bombardment. Each day the portion of the land Israel allows them to live on shrinks as their homes are demolished and property confiscated. Today the Palestinian portions of the West Bank and Gaza resemble a series of concentration camps...

Here is what part of the West Bank looks like:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

Detailed maps at the same website.

Even though Jewish only colonies make up only 1.7% of territory of the West Bank, together with Jewish only roads and security barriers... the result is that 41.9% of the West Bank has been ethnically cleansed of non-Jews.

ISRAEL'S APPROVED ETHNIC CLEANSING
PART 1, MAKING "FACTS ON THE GROUND"
Edward S. Herman
​

Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has always presented a moral problem to the West, as that treatment has violated every law and moral standard on the books. Some 750,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in 1948-1949, and since then scores of thousands more have been pushed out by force, their houses demolished or taken over by Israeli Jews (not Israeli Arabs). Under the supposed "peace process" following the signing of the Oslo Agreement in September 1993, a UN Special Report of November 13, 2000, says that "In the past seven years...Israel's confiscation of Palestinian land and construction of settlements and bypass roads for Jewish settlers has accelerated dramatically in breach of Security Council Resolution 242 and of provisions of the Oslo agreements requiring both parties to respect 'the territorial integrity and unity of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.' Since 1993 the settler population in the West Bank and Gaza has doubled to 200,000 and increased to 170,000 in East Jerusalem." The report also describes and condemns the demolitions of Palestinian houses, the diversion of water to Israeli cities and settlements, the policy of closures that has damaged Palestinian social and economic life, and the "widespread violation of their [Palestinian] economic, social and cultural rights" both within Israel and in the occupied territories. It also assails Israel's use of excessive force against Palestinians and hundreds of Intifada killings, "most of them unarmed demonstrators."...
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm

The six day war never ended in six days. It was just a battle in a war that's been going on since the late 1940's.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Now that conquered territory is home to about 400,000 people living in Jewish only colonies, Jewish only highways with security buffer zones connecting them, an apartheid wall which separates the previous inhabitants from their property (which is then declared abandoned and seized by the state), sources of water, arable land...

Today, the original inhabitants, most of whom have never committed a violent act, find themselves surrounded by walls with guard towers under continuous bombardment. Each day the portion of the land Israel allows them to live on shrinks as their homes are demolished and property confiscated. Today the Palestinian portions of the West Bank and Gaza resemble a series of concentration camps...

Here is what part of the West Bank looks like:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

Detailed maps at the same website.

Even though Jewish only colonies make up only 1.7% of territory of the West Bank, together with Jewish only roads and security barriers... the result is that 41.9% of the West Bank has been ethnically cleansed of non-Jews.

[/font]
The six day war never ended in six days. It was just a battle in a war that's been going on since the late 1940's.

Land is at a premium in the region. Two hostile peoples with a violent and troubled past forced to live in close proximity is difficult and creates a bad environment.

Your point about jewish occupation in the west bank is well noted, there are those who want this land to be part of Israel proper. However it should be pointed out that The entire Sinai was returned to Egypt after military conquest Twice. Recently the Israelis unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. Unilaterally, with no concession, with nothing in return, only to have that land again the base for rocket attacks against Israel and the kidnapping of soldiers. If the Palestinians ever want the West Bank back
they should show that the Israelis can return the land without having it turned int a massive base for attack against Israel. There is nothing currently happening that would make me or anyone assume that such a withdrawl by Israel would result in a functioning Palestinian state. Gaza has shown that to be a wrong-headed assumption.

I would like Israel to withdraw fromthe West Bank, sever ties and formally announce that Gaza and the West Bank are on their own, build a wall separating Israel from the two regions and from then on treat the areas as foreign states. Foreign hostility would then be treated as would hostility from any foreign nation. Palestinian refugees could return to these lands and the Palestinian leadership (or lack thereof) saw fit. Israel should never have taken Gaza or the West Bank and the continued occupation of them is the source of too much bloodshed and human tradgedy.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Well I gotta say this. I grew up in Montreal had a few jewish friends for I lived near a jewish area.I'm not anti semetic at all.
When i first saw Arrafat with his guns and bandalirros on telly he frightened me.I did not think of him as anything good for anything.
Then he took of the guns and we watched as Israeli soldiers shot rock throwing kids...My attitude shifted to a more pro palestinian and anti I Israeli govt. stance...then the suicide bombs and I shifted again to the Israeli point of view of protecting themselves against a horror....Now last summer and the complete devastation of Lebenon. The power to kill a un soldier and destroy a well marked well known un station without reprisal.

When they leave the occupied territories they destroy the infastructure they created leaving a mess to be cleaned up.

I dunno..maybe if a new Israeli took power and did a few things like.

Ok we are not going to retaliate to your horrors for awhile.
We are going to use our money to help create a decent place for you live in.
We will try to educate our people not employ you as a secound class citizen but give you the same pay as the rest.
We are going to recognise your right as a free people and not interfere with your society and govt.

After this lets see what else we can do to help you people...


watcha think?

 

[earth_as_one]

It's not anti-Semitic to be against injustice and oppression. Israeli apologists when attempting to justify the unjustifiable, often play the anti-Semitic card in an attempt to make critics of Israel feel guilty or second guess themselves. Since some criticism of Israel is really just anti-Semitism, that's a fair tactic in some cases.

But many of Israel's most outspoken critics are Jews and Israelis. For example I think its pretty safe to safe that Jews Against The Occupation, and B'tselem (an Israeli Human rights group) are not anti-Semitic.

JATO:

Jews Against the Occupation

Our Mission

Jews Against the Occupation is an organization of progressive, secular and religious Jews of all ages throughout the New York City area advocating peace through justice for Palestine and Israel. Our points of unity are as follows:

NO OCCUPATION IN OUR NAME

We as American Jews reject the Israeli government assertion that it is "necessary" to subjugate Palestinians for the sake of keeping Jews safe. We assert that security can only come from mutual respect, and that the occupation of Palestine is only worsening the position of Jews in the Middle East and around the world.

RESTORE HUMAN & CIVIL RIGHTS

The Israeli military fires bone-crushing rubber bullets and live ammunition at unarmed Palestinian civilians engaged in peaceful protest, failing to distinguish between peaceful and violent resistance. The Israeli government has been demolishing Palestinian houses and crops in the Occupied Territories, while allowing Jewish settlers -- many of them American -- to illegally occupy the same land.

END U.S. AID TO ISRAEL

The U.S. government provides more aid to Israel than to any other country—the vast majority of this is for military purposes. Billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars have propped up the occupation and fueled the Israeli government’s war machine (as well as disguising the occupation’s true cost). This aid must end.

STOP ECONOMIC ATTACKS ON PALESTINE

The Israeli government has attacked the Palestinian economy by: closing Palestinian banks; imposing extreme taxes on business; withdrawing operating licenses; destroying industrial equipment; bulldozing farmland and banning fishing; restricting workers' movement; controlling the export of Palestinian goods; closing the borders of the Occupied Territories; and refusing to fund infrastructure like water and electricity -- even in Arab villages within Israel.

LET PALESTINIANS RETURN HOME

Thousands of Palestinians were driven out of their houses and off of their farms during and after the creation of Israel. They must be allowed to return to their homeland.

ANTI-SEMITISM VS. CRITIQUES OF ISRAEL

Jews Against the Occupation stands firmly against anti-Semitism and racism in all its forms. We see our historical struggle against anti- Semitism--a cornerstone of European white supremacist ideology--as inherently linked to all struggles against oppression. We therefore stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggle for freedom.

Judaism is a cultural and religious identity, which must not be equated with Zionism, a political movement. Criticism of the state of Israel, its policies, or the idea of a Jewish state does not by itself constitute anti-Semitism. Dismissing critics of Israel or of Zionism as "anti-Semitic" is a means of stifling debate and masking the impact of the occupation....
from:

http://www.jatonyc.org/

B'TSELEM

B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

B'Tselem in Hebrew literally means "in the image of," and is also used as a synonym for human dignity. The word is taken from Genesis 1:27 "And God created humans in his image. In the image of God did He create him." It is in this spirit that the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "All human beings are born equal in dignity and rights."

As an Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem acts primarily to change Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories and ensure that its government, which rules the Occupied Territories, protects the human rights of residents there and complies with its obligations under international law.

B'Tselem is independent and is funded by contributions from foundations in Europe and North America that support human rights activity worldwide, and by private individuals in Israel and abroad.

B'Tselem has attained a prominent place among human rights organizations. In December, 1989 it received the Carter-Menil Award for Human Rights. Its reports have gained B'Tselem a reputation for accuracy, and the Israeli authorities relate to them seriously. B'Tselem ensures the reliability of information it publishes by conducting its own fieldwork and research, the results of which are thoroughly cross-checked with relevant documents, official government sources, and information from other sources, among them Israeli, Palestinian, and other human rights organizations....

http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Jewish and Israeli historians are also clearly not anti-Semitic:

Benny Morris:

Survival of the Fittest?
An Interview with Benny Morris
By ARI SHAVIT

Note: Benny Morris is the dean of Israeli 'new historians', who have done so much to create a critical vision of Zionism--its expulsion and continuing oppression of the Palestinians, its pressing need for moral and political atonement. His 1987 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, chronicled the Zionist murders, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing that drove 600,000-750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948, thus refuting the myth that they fled under the orders of Arab leaders. A second edition of this book is due out this month, chronicling even more massacres, and a previously unsuspected number of rapes and murders of Palestinian women. Thus Morris continues to provide crucial documentation for Palestinians fighting the heritage of Al-Nakba, "The Catastrophe."

But in an astonishing recent Ha'aretz interview, after summarizing his new research, Morris proceeds to argue for the necessity of ethnic cleansing in 1948. He faults David Ben-Gurion for failing to expel all Arab Israelis, and hints that it may be necessary to finish the job in the future....

http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

Ilan Pappe:

Power and History in the Middle East: A Conversation with Ilan Pappe

Q: What is your background and how do you see your own development as a historian?

Pappe: I was born in 1954 to a German Jewish family in Haifa where I lived in blissful ignorance about the world beyond the comfortable and safe mount Carmel until I reached the age of 18. At that age I began my military service which introduced me to other groups and to the host of social problems facing Israeli society. But it was only in the 1970s, at Hebrew University, that I was exposed to the plight of the Palestinians in Israel as an undergraduate in the department of Middle Eastern History. It was then and there that I found my love for history and developed my belief that the present cannot be understood and the future changed without first trying to decipher its historical dimensions.

It was clear that this could not be done freely inside Israel-especially if its own history was to be my subject matter. This is how I found myself at Oxford in 1984 as a D. Phil student under the supervision of two great supervisors, the late Albert Hourani and Roger Owen. The thesis was on the 1948 war in Palestine, a subject that has engaged me ever since my career as a professional historian began. This is still a subject that haunts me and I regard the events of that year as the key to understanding the present conflict in Palestine as well as the gate through which peace has to pass on the way to a comprehensive and lasting settlement in Palestine and Israel. Intimate and strong friendships with Palestinians and the newly declassified material in the archives produced my new look at the 1948 war. I challenged many of the foundational Israeli myths associated with the war and I described what happened in Palestine in that year essentially as a Jewish ethnic cleansing operation against the indigenous population. This conviction informed not only my work as a historian but also affected significantly my political views and activity....

http://www.logosjournal.com/pappe.htm

Follow those links above especially the ones by Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe, read what they have to say and you will soon realize how misinformed most people are regarding Israel's creation, its longterm goals and what is going on right now.

But you don't have to be Jewish or Israeli to be able to call it like it is. For example:

Desmond Tutu, former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission.

Apartheid in the Holy Land

Desmond Tutu
Monday April 29, 2002
The Guardian

In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

On one of my visits to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes?

I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: "Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews."

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say: "I am not pro- this people or that. I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression."

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic, as if the Palestinians were not semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?

People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.

We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.

Desmond Tutu is the former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission. This address was given at a conference on Ending the Occupation held in Boston, Massachusetts, earlier this month. A longer version appears in the current edition of Church Times...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,706911,00.html

Part of the reason why so many people are misinformed is that most of what we know about this conflict comes from the Israeli government or is filtered by people with pro-Israel agendas. As a result most people have a misperception of this conflict based on selective truths and outright fabrications. If people heard all sides, their viewpoint would be much different and more balanced.

If you are willing to consider the Palestinian viewpoint here is a good starting point:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

If you want a quick guide to the scale of oppression and injusticed suffered by Palestinians, I recommend this website:

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.
Below are charts of nine little-known statistics.
Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.
Statistics Last Updated: May 31, 2007

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Just keep in mind, I haven't posted any links to the Zionist pro-oppression, pro-injustice viewpoint. That information is easy to get... just watch or read the news.

Much better sources of information regarding this conflict are human rights organizations like Human Rights Watch:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/isrlpa9806.htm

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

and Amnesty International:
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Re...th-Africa/Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/isr-summary-eng

Does any of the above give a different perspective on this conflict?

 

[iARTthere4iam]

The issue of right of return is one that is often mentioned and poses a problem for a Jewish nation wishing to retain it's cultural identity. The very reason the state of Israel was created was to give a homeland for the jewish people. According to human rights watch and if americans knew the very essence of Israel as a jewish state, it's very purpose and reason is racist and evil. If Palestinian Arabs from refugee camps far and wide flood into Israel the Jewishness of the state will be lost and the Israelis will lose control of their democracy, and the entire reason for the existence of Israel will disapear. Why everyone thinks that the right of return is a starting point is beyond me, under no amount of pressure will the Israelis agree to this though the refugees could possibly "return" to Gaza and the West Bank, many refugees living in camps in surrounding nations must be assimilated by those countries. The original partitian plan is long since gone, the best that can be hoped for is a Palestine made up of Gaza and the West Bank.

As far as the if americans knew site I just have to say that the vast majority of the stats posted can be easily explained. The Israelis won the wars and hold all the guns, the power, the money. Israel is a technologically advanced modern democracy (albeit one with serious internal problems) with functioning social systems and stable government and the Palestinians are living in a war remnant, captured territory, a subjugated people. To expect Israel to forget the wars and hostility brought about by the Arabs since before state was established is unrealistic.

 

[Zzarchov]

Right of return does not apply, as those entitlted to return are for the most part , dead.

Same reason the Jewish people displaced in the same time frame don't get to go home. They are forced to stay in Israel now, and those from Israel are forced to stay out. You make your bed, then you lie in it.

Palestine was on the road to getting everything it wanted, then it decided bombing would be better. You can't just go back and declare a mulligan.

 

[earth_as_one]

Z is right. But justice or doing what's right is more than laws.

Reality often also induces pragmaticism. But Israel hasn't finished their rolling annexation of Palestine yet. While Israel's fluid undefined unrecognized border continues to shift in favor of Israel and against the nationless what is Israel's motivation for peace?

But a new reality may have dawned. Israel's adversaries now possess munitions which can destroy tanks, low flying aircraft, walls and fortifications. Battles are becoming more evenly matched because of technological change. That shift was evident last summer in Lebanon.

This sixty year war isn't over or stopped evolving.

RPG-29: The Great Equalizer

At the beginning of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, the main Israeli concern was a report that Hezbollah possessed Russian Kornet antitank missiles. However, it has been the RPG-29 that is stolen the show. These man-portable lightweight weapons are powerful enough to destroy the Merkava tank, which is reputed to be the most thoroughly armored tank in the world. According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Hezbollah acquired significant numbers of the RPG-29 from Syria, and the weapon has been a major source of Israeli casualties in the conflict.
The RPG-29 Vampir with the tandem HEAT (high explosive anti-tank) PG-29V tandem charge warhead was developed by Russia in the late 1980s in response to the development of tanks having explosive reactive armor. The weapon is designed to actuate explosive armor with a first shaped charge, while a second charge is reserved to penetrate the tank's hull. The Soviet army received the RPG-29 in 1989. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, these weapons could be found in almost all of the former Warsaw Pact nations.
The strategic importance of the dramatic battlefield effectiveness of the RPG-29 cannot be underestimated. The Iraqi resistance has not had access to significant quantities of RPG-29s because they were not readily available in the international weapons market until after post-Gulf War sanctions were applied to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. However, Syria and Iran possess large inventories of these weapons. Certainly, the Pentagon must be taking note of the effectiveness of these weapons against the Israeli forces in south Lebanon when considering the possibility of a military confrontation with Iran or Syria. In fact, the calculus of occupying any potentially hostile country has been significantly shifted. If the occupying forces can no longer rely on armored vehicles to engage militants or to travel, the price of occupation in terms of casualties will be much greater. This necessarily impacts countries like the United States and Israel more than it would countries that place a lesser value on the lives of their soldiers. In other words, the unexpected effectiveness of the RPG-29 is a severe blow to the West. It is the great equalizer. For $500 per launcher and $250 per missile round, a militant group can purchase a light, mobile weapon that is easy to conceal and that can reliably destroy a main battle tank that costs millions of dollars.
The long-term implications for Israel are even more significant...

http://searchingforthetruth.typepad.com/searching_for_the_truth/2006/08/index.html

From a USMC site:

...

b. Weapon Penetration.

ATGMs can penetrate and destroy heavily armored tanks. They​

have large warheads that contain shaped charges. Because of their size, these warheads can

achieve significant penetration against typical urban targets. Penetration, however, does not

mean a concurrent destruction of the structural integrity of a position. The shaped-charge
warhead produces relatively little spall. Enemy personnel not standing directly behind or near
the point of impact of an ATGM may escape injury.
(1) Standard TOW Missiles. ​

The basic TOW missile can penetrate 8 feet of packed

earth, 4 feet of reinforced concrete, or 16 inches of steel plate. The improved TOW

(ITOW), the TOW 2, and the TOW 2A have all been modified to improve their
penetration. They all penetrate better than the basic TOW. All TOW missiles can defeat
triple sandbag walls, double layers of earth-filled 55-gallon drums, and 18-inch log walls.
(2) TOW 2B. ​

The TOW 2B uses a different method of defeating enemy armor. It flies

over the target and fires an explosively formed penetrator down onto the top armor, which

is thinner. Because of this design feature, the TOW 2B missile cannot be used to attack
nonmetallic structural targets. When using the TOW 2B missile against enemy armor,
gunners must avoid firing directly over other friendly vehicles, disabled vehicles, or large
metal objects such as water or oil tanks.
(3) Dragon Missile. ​

The Dragon missile can penetrate 8 feet of packed earth, 4 feet of

concrete, or 13 inches of steel plate. It can attain effective short-range fire from upper

stories or from the rear or flanks of a vehicle. These engagements are targeted against the
most vulnerable parts of tanks and can entrap tanks in situations where they are unable to
counterfire. Elevated firing positions increase the first-round hit probability. Firing down
at an angle of 20 degrees increases the chance of a hit by 67 percent at 200 meters. A
45-degree downward angle doubles the first-round hit probability, compared to a
ground-level shot.
c. Breaching Structural Walls. ​

Firing ATGMs is the least efficient means to defeat

structures. Because of their small basic load and high cost, ATGMs are better used against

tanks or enemy-fortified firing positions. They can be effective against bunkers or other
identified enemy firing positions...​

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/doctrine/mcwp3353.pdf​

​

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Right of return does not apply, as those entitlted to return are for the most part , dead.

Same reason the Jewish people displaced in the same time frame don't get to go home. They are forced to stay in Israel now, and those from Israel are forced to stay out. You make your bed, then you lie in it.

Palestine was on the road to getting everything it wanted, then it decided bombing would be better. You can't just go back and declare a mulligan.

Exactly. So how do they now go on? If the Palestinians are going to go on fighting for impossible rights and the Israelis are going to go on adding settlements in the West Bank and lording over the Palestinians is there a way forward out of the mess? I think that Israeli should disengage from the occupied territories (Gaza and the West Bank). Israel should then treat the palestine as a foreign state. The Palestinians need to be forced to work on their own nation.

 

[Zzarchov]

lets say you treat them as a foriegn state.

Then they shoot at you with missiles (as happened when they pulled out of Gaza) what do you do? You end up in the same mess only you give them more time to arm and prepare.

If they won't stop shooting at you, what can you do?

 

[iARTthere4iam]

As a foreign state Palestine would have the right to allow Palestinian refugeen in countries like Jordan and Lebanon to "return" ("return" because those that fled in the first place may have come from land inside Israel and as you pointed out most are now dead). This would expose the lie that the Palestinian refugees could be given the so called "right of return" and would show that the nations with refugees have been exacerbating the situation by keeping generations of refugees penned up. Also, if Palestine was an independent state there would be no arbitrary incursions, the Palestinians would have access to fishing off their shores, would have responsibility for their own infrastructure and would ultimately be responsible if hostile actions against Israel resulted in war. Israel should recognise the benefit that would result from an independent Palestine. The "occupation" would be over, the settlements gone, the Palestinian refugee problem would no longer be Israel's problem, and the Palestinians would have a chance to at least attempt their own nation.

 

[Just the Facts]

The "occupation" would be over, the settlements gone, the Palestinian refugee problem would no longer be Israel's problem, and the Palestinians would have a chance to at least attempt their own nation.

I think there is a move in that direction, but there is still a fair bit of opposition to abandoning the settlements in Judea. A lot of Israeli's believe they have a right to that land. If it were possible for those settlements to live as communities in a Palestinian state, much as the Arabs in Israel today, then there might be more hope for a peaceful future.

Call me a pessimist, but I don't think it will happen. The settlements may be abondoned anyway out of desperation, but then we'll have ongoing war between Israel and Palestine. I have no reason to believe the Arab world would settle for anything less than the elimination of Israel.

 

[earth_as_one]

The Gaza settlements weren't just morally indefensible... they were also physically undefendable.

Israel's Jewish only colonies in Gaza were inhabitated by about 8,000 people and took up about 30% of the Gaza's few square miles. 1,300,000 Palestinians were crammed into the remainder. If those Jewish only colonies were still there, Palestinian militants would have been shelling them.

Israel's decision to abandon its Gaza colnies was based more on pragmatism than goodwill. If it was goodwill, Israel would have left the homes and supporting infrastructure intact. Instead Israel razed everything to rubble before pulling out.

http://wwwnotes.reliefweb.int/w/rwb...470495ce47be9e76c125706600451d5e?OpenDocument

 

[Zzarchov]

As a foreign state Palestine would have the right to allow Palestinian refugeen in countries like Jordan and Lebanon to "return" ("return" because those that fled in the first place may have come from land inside Israel and as you pointed out most are now dead). This would expose the lie that the Palestinian refugees could be given the so called "right of return" and would show that the nations with refugees have been exacerbating the situation by keeping generations of refugees penned up. Also, if Palestine was an independent state there would be no arbitrary incursions, the Palestinians would have access to fishing off their shores, would have responsibility for their own infrastructure and would ultimately be responsible if hostile actions against Israel resulted in war. Israel should recognise the benefit that would result from an independent Palestine. The "occupation" would be over, the settlements gone, the Palestinian refugee problem would no longer be Israel's problem, and the Palestinians would have a chance to at least attempt their own nation.

And what happens when they start shooting? You shoot back and blow up their infrastructure. They don't make their own weapons nor pay for them for the most part, so no problem.

Then what? You have to invade, and occupy a country fresh with a new supply of weapons.


When you win a fight and pin the loser to the ground you cannot let him up until he is ready to stop hitting you. Otherwise your just gonna have to fight again and pin him down again (with a few more blows to the lip for your trouble)

 

[iARTthere4iam]

And what happens when they start shooting? You shoot back and blow up their infrastructure. They don't make their own weapons nor pay for them for the most part, so no problem.

Then what? You have to invade, and occupy a country fresh with a new supply of weapons.


When you win a fight and pin the loser to the ground you cannot let him up until he is ready to stop hitting you. Otherwise your just gonna have to fight again and pin him down again (with a few more blows to the lip for your trouble)

So you win the fight, pin the enemy and hold him forever? The Israelis have had the Palestinians pinned for forty years! In 1948 if the Israelis had chased all of the Arabs from the land and kept it it would have been more humane and only temporarily more painful for the Arabs. However that was not done and for some reason it wasn't done in 1967 either. So they are stuck with a ****load of angry Arabs on their hands. The settlements are ridiculous and the Palestinians are incapable of running, let alone establishing, a nation on their own. Israel holds all the muscle and the money. Negotiating with the Palestinians when such negotiations are unlikely to be honoured by all of the various factions in Palestine is useless anyway. Any Palestinian state is likely to be made up of Gaza and the West Bank, so if the Israelis unilaterally withdrawl from these areas and give the Palestinians notice that they are on their own negotiations will be over, it will be a fact. Whether or not the Palestinians choose to step up and make it a functioning state will be up to them.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

I think there is a move in that direction, but there is still a fair bit of opposition to abandoning the settlements in Judea. A lot of Israeli's believe they have a right to that land. If it were possible for those settlements to live as communities in a Palestinian state, much as the Arabs in Israel today, then there might be more hope for a peaceful future.

Call me a pessimist, but I don't think it will happen. The settlements may be abondoned anyway out of desperation, but then we'll have ongoing war between Israel and Palestine. I have no reason to believe the Arab world would settle for anything less than the elimination of Israel.

There was a great deal of opposition to the pullout from Gaza, too. Unfortunately, the leader strong enought to make it work is near dead. Olmert is not such a leader, so my plan will need to wait until a more able leader.

You are correct that many do believe that they have a right to a greater Israel comprised of the entire region. However, since there is no plan to expel all the Arabs such a desire will remain fantasy.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

The Gaza settlements weren't just morally indefensible... they were also physically undefendable.

Israel's Jewish only colonies in Gaza were inhabitated by about 8,000 people and took up about 30% of the Gaza's few square miles. 1,300,000 Palestinians were crammed into the remainder. If those Jewish only colonies were still there, Palestinian militants would have been shelling them.

Israel's decision to abandon its Gaza colnies was based more on pragmatism than goodwill. If it was goodwill, Israel would have left the homes and supporting infrastructure intact. Instead Israel razed everything to rubble before pulling out.

http://wwwnotes.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/c7ca0eaf6c79faae852567af003c69ca/470495ce47be9e76c125706600451d5e?OpenDocumenthttp://wwwnotes.reliefweb.int/w/rwb...470495ce47be9e76c125706600451d5e?OpenDocument

Physically undefendable? Odd. The held the area for nearly forty years.

I do think Sharon was being pragmatic, as crusty old generals are want to do.