Stockwell Day Defends Afghanistan Torture

[L Gilbert]

Here's a napkin, Beav. There's a bit of foam working its way down to your chin.
Um, there are several vids available of Afghan people expressing relish over the possibilities opening up for them (education, business opportunities, etc).

 

[Zzarchov]

what are you asking me for?

Because you asked a question along that line.
Asking a question is also a form of making a statement. IF you don't intend it to be, you should take some lessons in communication so you wont imply statements or positions by means of biased questions.

 

[mabudon]

Hey beav, that's about what I meant

And Zzarchov- getting out would mean we weren't PART OF IT anymore, which is how it should have been the whole time (and I KNOW the Liberals got us in and I don't give a damn, whoever was responsible was WRONG period)

Just like we weren't part of it for hundreds of years

 

[BitWhys]

Because you asked a question along that line...

you mean this?

So it won't bother you if its revealed conclusively our troops have been handing captives over to torturers?

what line would that be on?

 

[elevennevele]

Incensed? Thought I smelled something burning. (kidding)

Sorry, I don't find any of this funny.

 

[darkbeaver]

Here's a napkin, Beav. There's a bit of foam working its way down to your chin.
Um, there are several vids available of Afghan people expressing relish over the possibilities opening up for them (education, business opportunities, etc).

Disney makes fine cartoons as well Gil and you can still get copies of Hitler and compny expressing thier fondest wishes and devotion to the ruling order. Education and business oportunitys sponsered by murderous western oil sucking armys may be your idea of community developement but it ain't mine.

 

[L Gilbert]

Disney makes fine cartoons as well Gil and you can still get copies of Hitler and compny expressing thier fondest wishes and devotion to the ruling order. Education and business oportunitys sponsered by murderous western oil sucking armys may be your idea of community developement but it ain't mine.

lol
You prefer the poor bugger (hundreds of millions in that community) spending his short life in the rice paddies so the imperials can live in comfort. I knew that already. You imperials don't like the common people being educated and having businesses not under your control.

 

[elevennevele]

And what exactly do you think getting the hell out now is going to accomplish?

Even if you think we should still be there, this government should lose the right to lead in the face of it. If we permit such leadership of this country, then all of us as Canadians are guilty of allowance to torture as well.

 

[Walter]

Liberalman posted: Stockwell said that since there are no human rights laws in Afghanistan torturing of prisoners is a normal practice in that country.

Was this in the house, during a scrum or in some sort of news conference? If it was in the house I'd like to get the date so I can read it in Hansard.

 

[BitWhys]

...
3.) The Geneva Convention
A great document, but it only applies against others who follow it. The penalty for not following the Geneva convention, is that others are morally obligated not to follow it against you. Thats the punishment for breaching it and its everyones duty to apply it.

nonsense. You do realize this isn't the detention of unlawful combatants at Guantanamo we're talking about, right?

 

[Zzarchov]

Yes, I fully understand. Reread the definition of sovereign and the Geneva convetion. The convention is just that , a convention.
If your enemy takes PoW , you take PoW, if they don't torture, you don't torture. If they don't use gas weapons, you don't use gas weapons.
BitWhys, you really should post something that isn't a question. If you honestly have a question ask it, but trying to pose statements as questions comes off as pretentious and it torpedoes otherwise credible positions.
You could come off alot more eloquently.

 

[Zzarchov]

Even if you think we should still be there, this government should lose the right to lead in the face of it. If we permit such leadership of this country, then all of us as Canadians are guilty of allowance to torture as well.

I agree completely. I am not pro-torture by any means. The only grounds where torture would be legal (assuming it served any point) would be if you concluded that the Taliban was a legitimate military force who was purposefully ignoring the geneva convention, rather than an armed criminal element.
It is giving them too much credibility to treat them as such, holding them as common criminals and sending them to trial through due process would be a better position to take.

 

[BitWhys]

...
If your enemy takes PoW , you take PoW, if they don't torture, you don't torture...

“Under international law, you are prohibited from transferring to torture. You are prohibited from facilitating torture in any way,” said Mr. Byers, who teaches international law and politics at the University of British Columbia.

I don't need lectures on credibility from the likes of you.

Don't tell me.

You don't consider them to be prisoners of war. That's the only way you can square Article 12 to what you're claiming even though you're calling them POWs.

 

[Zzarchov]

I think you need look deeper into the issue. What people take as "International Law" is often "International norms espoused by many, upheld by none".
The very notion of International Law is a polar opposite to the concept of Sovereignty. You can't actually have both.
International Law is international norm. Normally, most fighting forces obey the genevea convention, most fighting forces involved in actual combat these days do not.
Re-read the geneva convention.

 

[BitWhys]

oh my my now I'm the one who's confused. I'm stuck choosing between the opinion of any number of experts in the field whose careers ride on the accuracy of their statements and a screen name with a grudge who's stepped out of his or her hall monitor role long enough to insist that a war crime isn't really a war crime its more of a contravention of guidelines.

tough choice :lol:

 

[mabudon]

So, some anonymous coward chose to hit me with negative rep wit the comment "ridiculous" for something I posted in this very thread- care to come on out and maybe copy and paste rather than hide behind the internets??

I'd like to know what it was that I posted that was so "ridiculous" yet somehow is seemingly irrefutable- why not just quote me and let me have it, chicken???

 

[Zzarchov]

The problem with "Experts" is that "experts" in the field means about jack. You really should look at the basic underlying structure of "international law" and how it coincides with sovereignty.
You should seek to become an "expert" yourself BitWhys, rather than rely upon the hopeful good intentions and advice of others. Seek out knowledge, i am not suggesting you take my word for it, im suggesting you learn for yourself, from the source, not the mouths of others.

 

[BitWhys]

...suggesting you learn for yourself, from the source, not the mouths of others.

great! If you're buying I'm flying. I'd start at the consolate in Kabul and try hook up with the corrections officers Harper has put on the nut for the sum total of Canada's monitoring efforts to date but I think I better stop in at the Hague to get a copy of that request that's been filed with International Criminal Court first.

I can clear my calendar.

 

[Zzarchov]

or start at the basics, read the geneva convention, pick up a basic history book about the evolution of the modern nation state. Total cost is zero (unless they make you pay for library cards where you are)

 

[mabudon]

Still sounds like you're advocating a policy of sinking to the level of the lowest common denominator Zzarchov, unless I'm missing something, whereas it strikes me that BitWhys is against such barbaric stupidity- is that the case??