Atheism and the VT Massacre
- Thread starter Pangloss
- Start date
Sometimes I don't mind the guy but he can get a bit wordy. His reasoning is fine, though.
lol.... this has been my main point all through this thread... people are people first (my theory is a good half of us are a__holes), and religious, atheist, or whatever they choose, second.
I know. I think that folks need clarification when some get overly wordy, so I help by clarifying things and reducing them down to a couple sentences. 
It's an affliction I can't get rid of. Sorry.
A friend once told me I should write pamphlets. I could never write books because, although my vocabulary has plenty of words in it, I portray concepts with a bare minimum of words.
It's an affliction I can't get rid of. Sorry. A friend once told me I should write pamphlets. I could never write books because, although my vocabulary has plenty of words in it, I portray concepts with a bare minimum of words.
Then go to the library and pick up "The God Delusion," by Richard Dawkins. Dawkins is no lightweight nutbar, either - he holds the Charles Simonyi Chair For The Public Understanding Of Science at Oxford University.
Karrie - atheists are smart enough to know that all knowledge is provisional, so they eschew ever trying to prove anything definitively. Theists want certainty (in general). Also, the idea of anyone, ever bowing to another is antithetical to the egalitarian principles of Humanism. Especially in worship.
Other books might be Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation," or "The End Of Faith."
I'll not go into their arguments here, because they are book length rebuttals to thousands of years of finely honed rhetoric, and because they are much better writers than I will ever be.
Pangloss
Yeah, the smilie was there for a reason. I've heard some very brilliant arguments for the reasoning behind atheism from Dex and Gilbert in this forum. I've heard tons of arguments from Dawkins and the like. I've heard arguments from scores of friends and family. Yet, no one can say there is no god with anymore certainty than I have that there IS a god. Gilbert knows I'm not changing my view on it, and there's no risk of me having to bow down and worship him. lol.
You see, it is that very certainty that humanists, rationalists, material positivists, atheists - whatever we choose to call ourselves - that we will never cripple ourselves with. Keeping one's mind open enough to admit we might be wrong is what allows us to advance our knowledge.
It was not the theists who figured out elliptical orbits, the heliocentric solar system or evolution - heck the Roman Catholic Church has a pretty good track record of hindering the pursuit of knowledge - but the Humanists, the Rationalists, etc. Same thing goes for antibiotics, the discovery of the circulation of blood, the germ theory of infection.
It is that very steadfast inflexibility ("I'm not changing my view") that makes debate with the faithful an impossibility by definition. Debate is the reasoned discussion of differing points of view. The key word here is "reason." Reason allows for the possibility of error, allows for change, allows for testability - what Karl Popper calls the "falsification principle."
Pangloss
I am an atheist, a non believer, and I wish everyone to believe in whatever they want, I am not
trying to convince anyone about anything, or compete my atheism against religious beliefs. I am 'just'
content and happy in my existence on this earth, I have no questions for anyone else. I don't
like the butting of heads, I don't even understand why an atheist would be interested in doing
that. I am not wandering around looking for something or preying to anything, I don't think about
such things, I have my own journey happening, and whatever religious people are doing, I wish
them happiness too. There is no reason for me to sit 'in the middle' and be in a position of saying
that 'maybe' there is some god out there somewhere, and I will live my life with an open mind,
leaving room for a god to enter my life, as I would not be telling the truth, I have to be true to
myself.
trying to convince anyone about anything, or compete my atheism against religious beliefs. I am 'just'
content and happy in my existence on this earth, I have no questions for anyone else. I don't
like the butting of heads, I don't even understand why an atheist would be interested in doing
that. I am not wandering around looking for something or preying to anything, I don't think about
such things, I have my own journey happening, and whatever religious people are doing, I wish
them happiness too. There is no reason for me to sit 'in the middle' and be in a position of saying
that 'maybe' there is some god out there somewhere, and I will live my life with an open mind,
leaving room for a god to enter my life, as I would not be telling the truth, I have to be true to
myself.
Once again, no no no Karrie. Here's why:
If you truly believe in the concept of an afterlife and the right way to get there, and you have any compassion for the fate of others, I hope to goodness you will knock on my door and try to save me.
I'm not kidding. Serious as a heart attack here. If this person has knowledge of the afterlife, darn right I want them to convince me. It's just that this former Sunday School teacher has yet to be (re)convinced.
Live and let live works fine is you do not believe in the afterlife and the faithful are not harming you, and they do not seem to be harming themselves (at least too much). Not interfering if I am right does no harm, and if I am wrong, interfering could cause a great deal of harm.
What about non-evangelizing when you are certain in your faith? If you were wrong about the afterlife, no harm done, maybe even a small good. But if you were right? Oh, man - you could have saved so many from a life of eternal torment (or whatever the bad thing might be - maybe stuck in an elevator with me forever), but you never even tried.
This is why I am always friendly to the LDSs and JWs that come to my door. They wish me well - no doubt about that.
Wish I could say the same about all the other true believers who don't bother.
Pangloss
(the above, by the way, was a variation on Pascal's Wager) - p
I truly believe in an afterlife. I truly believe there is a God. I also truly believe that good people go to heaven. If I knew you in real life, I would not only lead by example, but would also do what I could to make sure you know that being a good person is important. Would I try to convert you to Catholicism? No. Because I don't think it is THE key to heaven. Any atheist who leads a good life is as likely to end up there as I am.
Do you really believe that if there's a heaven, you've precluded yourself from entry to it?
Given the assumption that there is a heaven, and it is a christian one - of course I would not get into it. The bible, mostly through Jesus, makes it quite clear what gets a person into his club: belief in him, and several of his otherworldly qualities. Not being a good person, that is most certainly what the book does not say - good works are required of the believer, but belief is required to get in.
Let's be really, really clear on that one.
Bertrand Russel was asked what he'd say to God and St. Peter if he were to face them after his death (attentive readers will remember Russel's famous book, "Why I Am Not A Christian") and they asked the philosopher why he never believed in them. His answer: "Not enough evidence."
I doubt I could come up with much better.
No, I won't get in.
But I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Pangloss
Why would one assume that if there is a heaven it is a christian one?
What does it matter what the bible makes clear? Do you believe the Bible now?
Karrie:
I worked from the Christian bible because we are a western culture, and the bible is the dominant text. Much the same argument could be made along the lines of other religions around the world, even through time.
When Aristotle was executed, the charge against him was, among other things, "Teaching False Gods."
It was a crime not to worship Thor. Deny the perfection of Muhammed, and Muhammed denies you paradise. Trash talk Ra - and you get skinned alive and die forever.
You get the point - the afterlife awaits the faithful, generally independent of the particular type of faith. Punishment awaits the unbeliever - either in this life or in the claimed hereafter.
As for what matters what the bible makes clear - well, since we're talking about the christian faith, it would make sense to the one book the faith is centered on. That would be the source text.
If you wanna be all new age-y and talk crystal energy and the floating godhead and all that stuff - I'll go get some asprin first.
Do I believe in the bible now? I believe it exists, and lots of folks think it's true, and their belief seriously effects a lot of people's lives. Do I believe it's true, or a guide to good behaviour, or generally a force for good? Not so much.
But then, this conversation is really straying from the point of this thread. Perhaps it's running out of steam.
Pangloss
I worked from the Christian bible because we are a western culture, and the bible is the dominant text. Much the same argument could be made along the lines of other religions around the world, even through time.
When Aristotle was executed, the charge against him was, among other things, "Teaching False Gods."
It was a crime not to worship Thor. Deny the perfection of Muhammed, and Muhammed denies you paradise. Trash talk Ra - and you get skinned alive and die forever.
You get the point - the afterlife awaits the faithful, generally independent of the particular type of faith. Punishment awaits the unbeliever - either in this life or in the claimed hereafter.
As for what matters what the bible makes clear - well, since we're talking about the christian faith, it would make sense to the one book the faith is centered on. That would be the source text.
If you wanna be all new age-y and talk crystal energy and the floating godhead and all that stuff - I'll go get some asprin first.
Do I believe in the bible now? I believe it exists, and lots of folks think it's true, and their belief seriously effects a lot of people's lives. Do I believe it's true, or a guide to good behaviour, or generally a force for good? Not so much.
But then, this conversation is really straying from the point of this thread. Perhaps it's running out of steam.
Pangloss
Ah, there's where you lost me. I was not discussing the Christian faith. It does not apply to you, so why discuss it? I have discussed with you before my views on the Bible, and how I do not believe as the church does, that it is without flaw, so basing an argument on a book I feel is inherently flawed says, would be silly of me.
Well, if it ever did I'm afraid our noggins would collide unless we stood back a bit.
I rather like the idea of people bowing to each other out of respect.