Atheism and the VT Massacre

[Pangloss]

Ah, there's where you lost me. I was not discussing the Christian faith. It does not apply to you, so why discuss it? I have discussed with you before my views on the Bible, and how I do not believe as the church does, that it is without flaw, so basing an argument on a book I feel is inherently flawed says, would be silly of me.

Perhaps silly of you (how could that be?) but not silly of me, or silly for this thread. The topic of this thread revolves around what western christians are saying about atheists. D'Sousa is not a Gnostic, Sikh, or a Janist - he is a christian.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Well, if it ever did I'm afraid our noggins would collide unless we stood back a bit.
I rather like the idea of people bowing to each other out of respect.

That actually happened to me with a Korean student staying with me a few years ago.

I thought it was funny. . .not apparently so with her.

Pangloss

 

[L Gilbert]

Pan, what the hell is an LDS? Everyoine knows what a JW is but I don't think I've encountered an LDS. Loopy Delusion Syndrome?

Personally, if I even had a smidgeon of a thought that gods, werewolves, faeries, etc. existed there's no way I'd want to inhabit a "kingdom" that was run by something with Multiple Personality Disorder and was prone to temper tantrums that resulted in thousands of people being killed (as in the in the case of Christianity). Can't see myself doing that: sorry.

 

[Pangloss]

Latter Day Saint. As in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

Not to be confused with the Seventh Day Orthodontists.

Pangloss

 

[karrie]

Perhaps silly of you (how could that be?) but not silly of me, or silly for this thread. The topic of this thread revolves around what western christians are saying about atheists. D'Sousa is not a Gnostic, Sikh, or a Janist - he is a christian.

Pangloss

lol... we've come an awful long way from the point.

I really don't think that running around pushing our beliefs on one another is the answer, and don't feel mandated to by any book, anywhere. Talloola's still living wisely in my books. :smile:

 

[L Gilbert]

Ah. I have heard of them. Tx.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter, what's a belief system without a test? ?

Atheism, as others have ably pointed out, is not a belief system, it's an absence of a particular belief system. Or as somebody once said, atheism is a belief system the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby. (I don't collect stamps either, in case anyone's wondering.)

A belief system without a test in most cases will be the same as a belief system with a test. It won't be affected either way because belief systems by their nature generally aren't testable in any meaningful way. How would anyone test for the existence of god? We don't even know how to test whether assorted human ideologies like liberalism and conservatism are true or correct or whether one's better than the other, they remain matters of belief and personal preference. There is no conceivable test for the existence of god, partly because the usual presumed attributes of god would allow him to diddle the results undetectably to produce any conclusion he wanted us to arrive at. The test isn't controllable. That's why, for example, the statement, "I believe there is no god" is indefensible except as a belief system, while the usual atheist statement "I don't believe there is a god" is eminently defensible on multiple grounds.

 

[L Gilbert]

Or perhaps someone is as assured in their reasoning abilities to be able to conclude that there are no such things. If course, that makes us prone to missing any evidence that may actually pop up. But such is life and we usually assimilate evidence and rearrange theories and hypotheses to accommodate the new evidence anyway, eventually.

 

[gc]

Kind of off topic, but Dawkins will be on O'Reilly's show on monday. I'd kinda like to see that.

Dawkins has some good ideas, but I've seen him debate, and I must say he's not too good at it. Maybe he's better at writing than thinking off the top of his head...or maybe he gets frustrated with people who don't see what to him seems so obvious. I'd hate to see him lose a debate to someone like O'Reilly, who is quite the opposite, no good ideas, but a good debater. I'd like to see Dex take on O'Reilly on the subject of atheism vs. religion ;-)

 

[L Gilbert]

The remedy for tentative debating is simple patience. Unfortunately, it's not readily available when there is a time limit on the debate. But when one has the time to formulate thoughts into words, debate is easy.
And then there's the perception of what is good debate. If someone stutters but presents their ideas with plenty of substantiative evidence and the other party is smooth-speaking but doesn't have a lucid thing to say, I'd think the debate would go to the guy who stutters.
Um, also if someone cannot grasp the contexts of one or more of the debaters, they should be watching tv instead. I have problems sometimes getting it into some of the faithful people's heads that I don't have a belief in non-existence. My world does not hinge on belief so everthing I focus on is not in relation to a belief, whereas theirs is.

 

[karrie]

I have problems sometimes getting it into some of the faithful people's heads that I don't have a belief in non-existence. My world does not hinge on belief so everthing I focus on is not in relation to a belief, whereas theirs is.

LOL. It makes me giggle when you get all worked up over the semantics of your religion Gilbert.
It amounts to the exact same thing. In order to disbelieve, you have to believe there is nothing there to believe in. A belief system exists whether it is based on the negative or positive of the situation. And, you have to admit, we've had atheists on this board who approached it like a religion, complete with one telling me he would convert me. lol.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
a·the·ism

/ˈeɪ

θiˌɪz

əm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-iz-uh

m] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

 

[L Gilbert]

LOL. It makes me giggle when you get all worked up over the semantics of your religion Gilbert.
It amounts to the exact same thing. In order to disbelieve, you have to believe there is nothing there to believe in. A belief system exists whether it is based on the negative or positive of the situation. And, you have to admit, we've had atheists on this board who approached it like a religion, complete with one telling me he would convert me. lol.

No, it doesn't really amount to the same thing. An absence of belief is not the same as not believing. Not believing implies that there is something there in which to not believe. An absence of belief doesn't.
Dictionary definition was probably written by someone whom I was referring to as one whose world is relative to their faith.
Um, I agree that ssome professed atheists treat atheism as a religion. To me they aren't atheists.

 

[L Gilbert]

I might add that if I do get "worked up", it's the frustration. But, at this point, I'm not. At this point, I think I'm just tired.

 

[karrie]

No, it doesn't really amount to the same thing. An absence of belief is not the same as not believing. Not believing implies that there is something there in which to not believe. An absence of belief doesn't.
Dictionary definition was probably written by someone whom I was referring to as one whose world is relative to their faith.

Actually Gilbert, I have never ever, in all my years, heard of belief as something that could be absent. even in disbelief, you are exercising belief of some sort. The definition of belief is 'an opinion or conviction'. So, how can you have a conviction that atheism is right, but have no belief? While I understand you seem to think it lumps you in with the religious some way, it's just basic language.

You believe there is no god. I don't get why that bugs you so much.

Although... I do get why having it called a religion does, and I still think that's a bit fun... heeheehee... *ducks*

 

[L Gilbert]

Actually Gilbert, I have never ever, in all my years, heard of belief as something that could be absent. even in disbelief, you are exercising belief of some sort. The definition of belief is 'an opinion or conviction'. So, how can you have a conviction that atheism is right, but have no belief? While I understand you seem to think it lumps you in with the religious some way, it's just basic language.

You're probably quite right. You haven't heard of an absence of belief. That's what my point was to begin with. I have problems with explaining it.

You believe there is no god. I don't get why that bugs you so much.

Although... I do get why having it called a religion does, and I still think that's a bit fun... heeheehee... *ducks*

Telling me constantly that something gets me "worked up" or "bugs me" does exactly those two things. I think this stuff is fun, but then really heated arguments that stop short of fisticuffs and flinging missiles I think are fun.

BTW, I believe you that you can't grasp the bit about an absence of belief. That's my problem. I have trouble explaining it.

 

[karrie]

Telling me constantly that something gets me "worked up" or "bugs me" does exactly those two things. I think this stuff is fun, but then really heated arguments that stop short of fisticuffs and flinging missiles I think are fun.

Don't get worked up Gilbert. I'll leave you alone. :smile: If you ever have a day where you want to try to explain it to me, you know where to find me.

 

[L Gilbert]

Well, if you are going to keep telling me that I'm worked up, I will be. But, it's like Dex pointed out atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Not believing is not a type of belief.

 

[karrie]

hmm... I just caught your snippet of text in the middle of my quote on that last reply of yours... sorry I missed it the first time round.

you said I'd never heard of an absence of belief before... but I have, and perhaps that's what confuses me about why you classify yourself that way, because to me, it lumps you in with the middle ground of agnosticism.

The spiritual believe there is a god.... the agnostics don't really believe either way.... atheists believe there is no god.

I hope you can see it's honest confusion, and in its own way respect for the strength of your convictions, that makes me want to label it 'belief'.

 

[talloola]

Gilbert:
I am totally in agreement with you. Anyone who believes in anything is doing just that, in the
act of 'believing", but those who don't enter into those beliefs, in my opinion aren't opposite, but
just not included, as they didn't become involved in the first place. There is too much importance
by the ones who believe, that their position is dominant, and you either join 'it' or you form a
new religion, called non believer. The believers did that, on their own, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[karrie]

Well, if you are going to keep telling me that I'm worked up, I will be. But, it's like Dex pointed out atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Not believing is not a type of belief.

Yes, I heard Dex say it, and it seemed a hollow comparison then too.

If you don't have a hobby, then you don't have a hobby. If someone held no belief about the existence of god, then I'm sure you could hold no belief... but, you DO hold a belief about god's existence... therein lies the sticking point. You DO have an opinion, a conviction, about the existence of god.