Would you not agree that the US is the high end of the capitalist spectrum, thus creating much of its own problems?
Socialism Destroying America
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
I would agree that the US is a freer economy, but I'm not sure what you mean by "creating much of its own problems" because of it.
The hunger of the capitalist machine(Sorry, I know how much you hate terms like that), is driving its foriegn policy, its foriegn policy is causing serious damage to the US's security and world image.IMHO.
It seems to be capitalism, run amok. The polar opposite of socialism run amok, ie: Russia.
Is a colapse emminant?
No.
Its not the socio-economic systems that drive the great powers to extend influence around the world, though that has been the ideological battleground. Instead, it is about the extension of power and influence, the acquisition of wealth, and the protection of a country's standing and status. It is one that every great nation has played throughout time, and has become known as The Great Game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game
The reason why the USSR collapsed and America did not is because, amongst other reasons, communism on a grand scale as an economic system does not work whereas capitalism does.
I would agree that capitalism works and socialism does not, but can capitalism cannibalise itself? If left unchecked, could the US not self implode?
Communism does not work for the individual either and capitalism does.
Unless the people of a nation are independently making their own decisions regarding their lifestyle, their worth, their ability to move up the ladder independently, we have nothing but food lines and
bowls and large spoons at every mealtime -
Capitalism has many problems, but nothing like communism would bring - it is the antithesis of living the life all humanity is meant to enjoy - living as individuals - self realized and actualized.
Unless the people of a nation are independently making their own decisions regarding their lifestyle, their worth, their ability to move up the ladder independently, we have nothing but food lines and
bowls and large spoons at every mealtime -
Capitalism has many problems, but nothing like communism would bring - it is the antithesis of living the life all humanity is meant to enjoy - living as individuals - self realized and actualized.
I agree, but my fear is that capitalism will become so corrupt, that it will consume itself and socialism will fill the void.
Socialism is just a type of Capitalism. Used correctly, it increases the gains Capitalism brings. Bean counters just sit down and go over the math.
"Is the lost productivity nationwide due to illness and no health care more expensive than Nationalized healthcare?"
"Is it cheaper to institute welfare or deal with disgruntled masses? (if they can't get a descent job..which by the nature of capitalism everyone can't then trouble brews)"
etc etc etc.
Cost VS Benefit analysis, if you don't think governments don't go over it all the time then your wrong.
"Is the lost productivity nationwide due to illness and no health care more expensive than Nationalized healthcare?"
"Is it cheaper to institute welfare or deal with disgruntled masses? (if they can't get a descent job..which by the nature of capitalism everyone can't then trouble brews)"
etc etc etc.
Cost VS Benefit analysis, if you don't think governments don't go over it all the time then your wrong.
The short answer is "No, it cannot 'cannibalize' itself." However, that doesn't mean it cannot collapse because the system - like any system of wealth - is based on confidence and trust. If confidence and trust collapses, then a capitalist society can collapse, as can any form of socio-economic organization. This, of course, is a monstrous topic, with many possible permutations and combinations.
Of course the United States could implode. It is extremely unlikely it ever will in your or my lifetime though.
That is an issue of governance. If a society allows itself to be corrupted, then whatever system that is in place can collapse, socialism, communism, capitalism, etc.
Communism and/or socialism can become corrupt too Bear
The beauty of capitalism or democracy is the free will and creative genius of humanity. To be allowed to mature and think and develop - becoming the best we can be for the whole of the group - flourishes under capitalism.... it does not under communism or socialism which literally stunts growth.
Capitalism still provides for the weakest and all of these are set in place by a government who is voted in by the people by individual decision.
There are all kinds of flaws as there would be in any group of people - but I have yet to see a model presented which can do better. Which of the models encourages individuals to seek all they can...
Remember if you live in fear - of having thoughts - of having dreams - of having questions - of imagining change - you will never grow - as an individual - or a great nation.
The beauty of capitalism or democracy is the free will and creative genius of humanity. To be allowed to mature and think and develop - becoming the best we can be for the whole of the group - flourishes under capitalism.... it does not under communism or socialism which literally stunts growth.
Capitalism still provides for the weakest and all of these are set in place by a government who is voted in by the people by individual decision.
There are all kinds of flaws as there would be in any group of people - but I have yet to see a model presented which can do better. Which of the models encourages individuals to seek all they can...
Remember if you live in fear - of having thoughts - of having dreams - of having questions - of imagining change - you will never grow - as an individual - or a great nation.
I'm not sure I would buy that Toro. The rifts are wide and multiplying exponentialy. The socialist need only to point to and hilite the excesses of wealth and the unwashed masses swallow the BS that follows, with regards to the benefits of socialism. When there is nothing to lose, walking into a bistro with a vest made of Composition 4 isn't that hard to do.
You're preaching to the choir WC. Socialism holds no power over me, beyond the benefits of the Canadian healthcare system.
But...
There is the communism that my people once embraced fully. The communal benefits of one for all and all for one. No one is more equal then any other, yet it was a democracy, as I have clear proven.
The socialism of the European making, is totally void of the ablity to become anything but a vaccuous mess, with the people suffering in state enforced silence.
That is what causes my problems with US capitalism. The brush used to pain the US is broad and paints all western societies. If the US collapses and is replaced by the European version of socialism, suicide would preferrable.
What you are talking about is what I would think of as "social democracy" similar to what you see in many Social Democratic parties in western Europe. In those countries, there is a greater effort to redistribute income but there is little effort for the government to own large chunks of the economy and it allows the price system, i.e. prices to fluctuate to its clearing level, to work. I would consider socialism to be a society which distributes income and makes a concerted effort to own large chunks of the economy but allows the price system to work. This was more prevalent in the 1960s and 1970s. I would consider communism to be a system where income is redistributed, the government owns pretty much everything, and the pricing system is not allowed to clear and is set by the government.
America is a place, though, where class resentment is virutally non-existent. To me, its one of America's great positives.
Besides, when you look at the distribution of poverty compared to the mean, there isn't much difference between America and Europe.
Bear
Yup like all that wealth from oil in the middle east - and all their unwashed masses too....there is no guarantee a government or dictatorship or royal family isn't going to bite the nutbar once in a while...
I don't see how wealth can turn over a huge nation of intelligent people who have been allowed to think for themselves since birth.
We have to stay on top, educate ourselves and stop becoming hysterical at every turn.... like we were locked in a Star Wars episode...then devote ourselves to earning a satisfactory living for ourselves and our families, and save a bit for those who aren't as lucky.
Yup like all that wealth from oil in the middle east - and all their unwashed masses too....there is no guarantee a government or dictatorship or royal family isn't going to bite the nutbar once in a while...
I don't see how wealth can turn over a huge nation of intelligent people who have been allowed to think for themselves since birth.
We have to stay on top, educate ourselves and stop becoming hysterical at every turn.... like we were locked in a Star Wars episode...then devote ourselves to earning a satisfactory living for ourselves and our families, and save a bit for those who aren't as lucky.
Are we talking the United States here???
What will bring the U.S. to its knees is the constant yammering about "take care of this" - " take care of that" - not only by other nations - but by the U.N. - when we are seeing poverty and mass destruction happening in the lower 48 and we can't devote ourselves to it, support Mexico's government to which the salaries sent home amount to around $2 billion I heard this week....and the new nagging on the tube about Save Darfur.....keep the Koreas friendly, leave Iraq and rebuild Iraq, stop the poppy industry in Afghanistan....and so on.... oh ya Make Israel move and rebuild Palestine....
sigh Why should we?
What will bring the U.S. to its knees is the constant yammering about "take care of this" - " take care of that" - not only by other nations - but by the U.N. - when we are seeing poverty and mass destruction happening in the lower 48 and we can't devote ourselves to it, support Mexico's government to which the salaries sent home amount to around $2 billion I heard this week....and the new nagging on the tube about Save Darfur.....keep the Koreas friendly, leave Iraq and rebuild Iraq, stop the poppy industry in Afghanistan....and so on.... oh ya Make Israel move and rebuild Palestine....
sigh Why should we?
I think you've all got the wrong idea about socialism guys.
It certainly isnt a bad thing, it can, infact be a very good thing. would capitalism provide help for the poor and sick who cannot afford to pay for healthcare?....does capitalism give a rats backside if your too poor to pay your bills and have no safety net?.
I'm sorry, but Ii think capitalism is, for the most part (in concern to a national government) WRONG. Someone mentioned Katrina, why have the capitalists not been back there to sort the place out?...I was down that way a few months ago...it's a mess..why?... because the overwhelming population is BLACK and POOR and there is no profit in there for the capitalists so they rely on charity, and generally the charity of the socialists.
It may be capitalism that makes america what it is, but on that note, if that is the case doesnt it make you think about the morals of a country built on that "pull the ladder up Jack and Sod the rest" mentality?
But then the country was built on those kinds of people, so it doesnt suprise me....just dont think that socialism is a bad thing.
It certainly isnt a bad thing, it can, infact be a very good thing. would capitalism provide help for the poor and sick who cannot afford to pay for healthcare?....does capitalism give a rats backside if your too poor to pay your bills and have no safety net?.
I'm sorry, but Ii think capitalism is, for the most part (in concern to a national government) WRONG. Someone mentioned Katrina, why have the capitalists not been back there to sort the place out?...I was down that way a few months ago...it's a mess..why?... because the overwhelming population is BLACK and POOR and there is no profit in there for the capitalists so they rely on charity, and generally the charity of the socialists.
It may be capitalism that makes america what it is, but on that note, if that is the case doesnt it make you think about the morals of a country built on that "pull the ladder up Jack and Sod the rest" mentality?
But then the country was built on those kinds of people, so it doesnt suprise me....just dont think that socialism is a bad thing.
You'll have to excuse me if I find nothing of any benefit, apart from healthcare and the premice of the social safety net, in socialism.
Far to many countries that have sucome to its woes, have fallen by the way side and suffer greatly. Lets watch Venezuela, for a play by play fall into the abys.
And I think you clearly have the wrong impression of what capitalism is. The argument you are putting forward is a straw man, irrelavent in the modern world, or of anything that exists today. Its like arguing that we shouldn't have any social programs or public education because, if we do, we'll all become godless communists and the state will expropriate your house, your property, your daughters, etc.
Who the heck argues that government should have absolutely no involvement in society? No one. I don't hear many people arguing that the police should be privately run, that the army should be privately run, that the courts should be privately run, that all roads should be privately run, that all education should be privately run, etc.
To say that the US has "no safety net" is an outright fabrication. Over half the US federal budget goes to social programs. Now, you can argue that there should be more social spending, but to use the US as a representative of "capitalism" because there is "no social net" is not a serious argument that should be dismissed out of hand.
As for using Katrina as another example because there is racism towards the poor blacks, well, perhaps you should have also travelled through south Florida when Andrew ripped through this state, devastating Florida, and leaving thousands of white people without homes. It took years for that part of the state to recover. It was worse than New Orleans. To say that New Orleans is a "failure" of capitalism completely misunderstands what capitalism is, and, again, should be dismissed out of hand. New Orleans is a failure of society, not a socio-economic structure.