Bright Sun, Warm Earth: Coincidence?

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Carl Wunsch has a small role in the film, and he talks about the oceans....nothing he says indicates were he stands on the issue of global warming and it's causes from what I can see.




That does appear to be the truth of the matter....

Not true Jay. You have to appreciate the context by which his expertise is used. Heres another letter he has wrote explaining to his colleagues how his contribution was out of context:

I wanted to explain why observing the ocean was so difficult, and why it is so tricky to predict with any degree of confidence such important climate elements as its heat and carbon storage and transports in 10 or 100 years. I am distrustful of prediction scenarios for details of the ocean circulation that rely on extremely complicated coupled models that run out for decades to thousands of years. The science is not sufficiently mature to say which of the many complex elements of such forecasts are skillful. Nonetheless, and contrary to the impression given in the film, I firmly believe there is a great deal to be learned from models. With effort, all of this is explicable in terms the public can understand.

In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.


Many of us feel an obligation to talk to the media---it's part of our role as scientists, citizens, and educators. The subjects are complicated, and it is easy to be misquoted or quoted out context. My experience in the past is that these things do happen, but usually inadvertently --- most reporters really do want to get it right.


Channel 4 now says they were making a film in a series of "polemics". There is nothing in the communication we had (much of it on the telephone or with the film crew on the day they were in Boston) that suggested they were making a film that was one-sided, anti-educational, and misleading. I took them at face value---clearly a great error. I knew I had no control over the actual content, but it never occurred to me that I was dealing with people who already had a reputation for distortion and exaggeration.

The majority of the film is based on the apparent falacy that carbon dioxide is dangerous. They insert his portion rather disingenuously in a way he never intended.
So I assume in the future he will be more cautious before accepting an invitation to appear in any broadcasts.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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Quote Tonnington: They make their money talking it up. In fact that recent show on BBC, the Great Global warming swindle, most of the scientists on there aren't even in the business anymore except as voices on the TV, talk shows, radios, etc.

That's because the active research scientist have to keep their mouths shut to get funding.
 

Tonington

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I'm not sure what you mean by that Eh1. Most active researchers tend to stay away from the rhetoric like that we see, hear and read through the various media outlets.
 

eh1eh

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I'm not sure what you mean by that Eh1. Most active researchers tend to stay away from the rhetoric like that we see, hear and read through the various media outlets.

So where does their money come from? People who beleive in global warming or people who don't? If they go on a TV show to state their opinion and if the people who give their Uni. grants don't like it then maybe no grant. Just a point as to your reference that those guys in the show make their money saying that and why don't currently researching scientist go on those shows?
 

Tonington

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I actually wrote a response to a similar question in another thread. I can't say with 100% certainty where all the money comes from for grants, but I would estimate the majority comes from government, NGO's and public donations. I'll look a little more to see if I can find anything. If you want to read my thoughts they're here.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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I actually wrote a response to a similar question in another thread. I can't say with 100% certainty where all the money comes from for grants, but I would estimate the majority comes from government, NGO's and public donations. I'll look a little more to see if I can find anything. If you want to read my thoughts they're here.

Yep I should have stayed in school. I would have developed my essay skills. You really wrap it up in that post dude.:wave:
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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I was in a Bachelor of Arts before I switched disciplines. Lots of essays. It's a shame there aren't more essays in B.Sc. programs, I enjoy writing much more than the tedious work involved in lab reports. Thanks for the kudos Eh1, very flattering. I'll bet you would have done quite well in university.

I did find some examples of where funding comes from, not much on the national level, and I haven't found any private stuff yet either. Google can be both a curse and a boon...
http://www.brocku.ca/ccovi/index/8/research.htmlindex.html
http://ring.uvic.ca/97feb21/climate_research.html
http://climate.uvic.ca/climate-lab/projects.html
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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I actually wrote a response to a similar question in another thread. I can't say with 100% certainty where all the money comes from for grants, but I would estimate the majority comes from government, NGO's and public donations. I'll look a little more to see if I can find anything. If you want to read my thoughts they're here.

That was a very interesting read.

This topic is the epitomy of party lines. 99.99% of all of us have no idea what we're taking about and latch onto anything to support our political ideology. Stem cell research the same. It easy to hoodwink people with scientific magic shows. I fear getting to the truth might be impossible when we have to wade through media events that often amount to nothing. So far Tonington you are the only person that seems to have a gasp on the big picture, and you present your opinion with integrity. If someone like you entered the political arena your constituents would be lucky.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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That was a very interesting read.

This topic is the epitomy of party lines. 99.99% of all of us have no idea what we're taking about and latch onto anything to support our political ideology. Stem cell research the same. It easy to hoodwink people with scientific magic shows. I fear getting to the truth might be impossible when we have to wade through media events that often amount to nothing. So far Tonington you are the only person that seems to have a gasp on the big picture, and you present your opinion with integrity. If someone like you entered the political arena your constituents would be lucky.


I agree with you completely Kreskin. I don't know if global warming is real or not. I have been assaulted with MEDIA reports for years that contradict, each by each. Until we all get degrees we'll never know. And I'm not sure those people educated in the disciplnes know either. One thing pointed out in that vid I posted was that there are so many variables a climate model can say whatever you want. So if things are that variable then both sides are blowing smoke.:wave:
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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I agree with you completely Kreskin. I don't know if global warming is real or not. I have been assaulted with MEDIA reports for years that contradict, each by each. Until we all get degrees we'll never know. And I'm not sure those people educated in the disciplnes know either. One thing pointed out in that vid I posted was that there are so many variables a climate model can say whatever you want. So if things are that variable then both sides are blowing smoke.:wave:

It's unfortunate though that most don't want to know, and all that will come of this is a political smokescreen.
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
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How do scientists make money from global warming? Unless of course they can convince other scientists that they are correct.
The more publicity and the more they publish the more funding they get.
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
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The world doesn't care about the world, we care about us while we hear.

Its hard to hear, buts its reality.

We are about $$... $$ makes the world go round (another sad fact), economy in every situation is going to be above enviroment...

We aren't going to make huge changes at the cost of our economy, ever.

What will end up happening, world will go in crisis mode 50-75 years from now, and NASA will launch some technology (which the USA has already been developing since a decade ago), to reflect sunrays in space, to cool down the earth... or at least or continent! lol.

Its March 12 in Manitoba, and the snow is melting and its +12 outside the sun is shining and I walked out today in a t-shirt and jeans.. the grass is peaking through and the water is running.

Go back 10 years from now, it should be cold and lots of snow...
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
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The more publicity and the more they publish the more funding they get.

Who gets funding is determined by scientists, not the general public or politicians. Therefore if they want to get funding, they have to convince other scientists that their research is worth funding. Also, to get published in a peer-reviewed journal, they have to convince other scientists that their research is correct.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
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So where does their money come from? People who beleive in global warming or people who don't? If they go on a TV show to state their opinion and if the people who give their Uni. grants don't like it then maybe no grant. Just a point as to your reference that those guys in the show make their money saying that and why don't currently researching scientist go on those shows?

See my post above :wave:
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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The economic aspect, that's the standard answer when all else fails. All these years spent debating this, how much money has actually been spent on meaningful technology? Scrubbers for the smoke stacks, energy companies instead of raising rates because the cost of dirty fuel goes up maybe they could build some wind generators, government vehicle fleets consisting of hybrids rather than large gas guzzling SUV's? Zilch.

Instead efforts are aimed at denying, denouncing and defamation. Or the eco-terrorist is painted as the standard environmentalist, out to destroy our society, a gross misrepresentation. The solution is easy, if pre-concieved notions are tossed aside. Think of the last year spent discussing this in Canada. Think of the ridiculous $4.5 Billion cut to government funds(GST), which could be the snowball that gets the whole thing moving. Not $4.5 Billion on programs which are inflated beurocratic bull sh!t, but investments by our government in our industry, which guess what, will spur growth at no cost to our Economy. Sounds so easy doesn't it, if only it weren't for the cost to a politicians political power base...

Cutting the GST makes for great gains in politics. What do you suppose meaningful investment in trully cleaner air would have done for Harper? I'll tell you one thing, people would care less about what Dion says.

West, the mirror in space is hogwash. Roughly half the earth is covered by darkness at all times, where are we going to deploy the mirrors without disrupting plants and animals etc? I certainly don't want that shade anywhere near me. The fact that these ideas are even given credence should be an indicator that things might not be so copasetic.
 
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s243a

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Mar 9, 2007
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I'm truly disgusted by some of the attitudes people have. Even if our own actions aren't causing global warming (and I know that none of us truly knows what is) doesnt mean we should go ahead and poison our Earth like we did in previous years. No, I think the campaign to reduce pollution is a good one, even if it is for the wrong reasons.
I’d rather live in a dirtier world then one controlled by thought police. The end doesn’t justify the means. You think things are bad today. At one time the air pollution was so bad that the buildings were black from soot.

There's so much crap we're putting into our air and soil, so much crap we're teaching our children to ingest and live with. Even if it doesn't contribute to the Earth's warming, it may contribute to some nasty illnesses in our species, as I think Karrie touched on in a previous thread.
The body is much more resilient and adaptive then people admit. No matter how healthy we eat we won’t live for ever.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
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I’d rather live in a dirtier world then one controlled by thought police. The end doesn’t justify the means. You think things are bad today. At one time the air pollution was so bad that the buildings were black from soot.


The body is much more resilient and adaptive then people admit. No matter how healthy we eat we won’t live for ever.

well ideally we'd have a word controlled by its inhabitants and their reasoning, but since we have people capable of dreaming up things like scientology it's probably good we have some people telling the dumb ones what to think.

it's true that the soot is longer there and that's a good step. Although there are still places which use coal and hence have the same trouble on a larger scale. Just because you don't see the black gunk it doesnt mean to say it isnt still around. Also there are very dangerous pollutants we cant see. Did you know hydrogen cyanide is invisible?
 

s243a

Council Member
Mar 9, 2007
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well ideally we'd have a word controlled by its inhabitants and their reasoning, but since we have people capable of dreaming up things like scientology it's probably good we have some people telling the dumb ones what to think.
Education is about learning how to think not what to think. Telling the dumb ones what to think doesn’t get us further ahead especially if what we are telling them is propaganda.
 

hermanntrude

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jun 23, 2006
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very true. But there are always going to be those who cannot be educated beyond a certain point, and there will ALWAYS be those who will never learn. Maybe we should have a huxley-ish world where the alphas control the decisions and the epsilons do the dirty work.
 

L Gilbert

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Nov 30, 2006
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I'm truly disgusted by some of the attitudes people have. Even if our own actions aren't causing global warming (and I know that none of us truly knows what is) doesnt mean we should go ahead and poison our Earth like we did in previous years. No, I think the campaign to reduce pollution is a good one, even if it is for the wrong reasons. There's so much crap we're putting into our air and soil, so much crap we're teaching our children to ingest and live with. Even if it doesn't contribute to the Earth's warming, it may contribute to some nasty illnesses in our species, as I think Karrie touched on in a previous thread.
Ditto that.
Maybe now is a good time to post the GHGs again: carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, hydrogen, VOCs (volatile organic compounds like vaporizing fuel, incomplete combustion of fuel, alcohols, aldehydes, organic acids, biomass burning, carbon tetrachloride, carbon tetrafluoride, oarbon monoxide, etc.) ozone, methyl chloroform, perfluoroethane, sulfur hexafluoride, trifluoromethyl sulfur pentafluoride, and there are more. Perhaps only a half dozen of these are naturally occuring.