As evidenced by this post, there is condesention on both sides of the isle. Atheists feel the need to defend themselves.
How to debate: A person of faiths struggle - please, PLEASE, people of faith only....
- Thread starter westmanguy
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As evidenced by this post, there is condesention on both sides of the isle. Atheists feel the need to defend themselves.
Here’s my take if it is of any interest to you.
Learning is a trying experience. The more we are tried the better we will learn. What I mean is this: if we don’t learn it right the first time, there will be a second round, a third and so on until we will have learned it right.
To debate or argue a point, we first have to argue by what we already know. We may be dead wrong in our thinking, but by discussion it, we may learn something new and better. (Progression)
This is a process we all go through in our spiritual journey in life.
It is as like a child, who has to grow in the midst of evil of an evil world and learn what good to take out of it and apply it to their own lives.
When a child matures to and adult spiritually he will have experienced learning the good ways to believe and than be able to cope with all the evil that can arise against him.
I am 60 years old, and if I live another 20, I will have done well. But in those 60 years I have learned what Jesus meant by “loving thy neighbor”.
I can take any insult that can be hurled at me and render kindness in return, because I know from what I’ve learned, as God has thought me, that I am to love them that despitefully use me as a targets of abuse.
But you see, that’s where it’s at! The idea is to exhaust the evil intentions in people’s hearts so that room may be made to replace it with kindness.(evil can be in degrees of cruelty)
For if we can aid in changing the enemies heart (evil heart), there will be a transformation of that heart, and we will see our rejoicing.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Learning is a trying experience. The more we are tried the better we will learn. What I mean is this: if we don’t learn it right the first time, there will be a second round, a third and so on until we will have learned it right.
To debate or argue a point, we first have to argue by what we already know. We may be dead wrong in our thinking, but by discussion it, we may learn something new and better. (Progression)
This is a process we all go through in our spiritual journey in life.
It is as like a child, who has to grow in the midst of evil of an evil world and learn what good to take out of it and apply it to their own lives.
When a child matures to and adult spiritually he will have experienced learning the good ways to believe and than be able to cope with all the evil that can arise against him.
I am 60 years old, and if I live another 20, I will have done well. But in those 60 years I have learned what Jesus meant by “loving thy neighbor”.
I can take any insult that can be hurled at me and render kindness in return, because I know from what I’ve learned, as God has thought me, that I am to love them that despitefully use me as a targets of abuse.
But you see, that’s where it’s at! The idea is to exhaust the evil intentions in people’s hearts so that room may be made to replace it with kindness.(evil can be in degrees of cruelty)
For if we can aid in changing the enemies heart (evil heart), there will be a transformation of that heart, and we will see our rejoicing.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhhahhahhaahhahh
"Turning thr other cheek" and "loving thy neighbor" isn't debating anymore than is quoting scripture.
"Turning thr other cheek" and "loving thy neighbor" isn't debating anymore than is quoting scripture.
I don't think she is being understood, or she is not indicating clearly what she means. No one of faith is objecting to a good debate. What is being objected to by us is the insulting and ridiculing from SOME of the members who jump into these threads. Making a point on an issue, religious or otherwise, does not require one to insult, or ridicule, either the person being replied to or the Christian belief system. To my knoweldge, for example, not one of the Christian people have called atheists the names that might come to our minds when replying to their posts-such as "fool", "heretic", etc.etc. Debate is also about respect for the point of view of others. Mocking the faith or God or the person is not debate, it is insulting and annoying, and goes beyond the pale for some people. At least this is my take on the situation. Serious comments, questions, disagreements are fine, but having to contend with the same 3 or 4 people who always pop up in these threads making almost always the same comments, comments which are not to the point of the theme of the thread but rather are directed at ridiculing the faith itself, are not productive in a debate. Threads get, if you will, hijacked away from their original point as the various Christians on the list must defend the very faith itself. Let's be honest, turn the tables around,do you think someone constantly popping up to tell us how the church is corrupt in every Christian thread is necessary, or that God is made up?? How many times must these people write it before it just gets redundant and un-necessary to the topic under discussion?Does that make it clearer what she is saying?
westmanguy:
A few things about Christian forums. In Christian religious forums one should keep in mind that there is an underlying agenda. Those advancing it's cause are so to speak e-Jehovas and that is because it is a requirement in their religion. I don't know if this is so in other religions. In Catholic forums the magisterium is always correct, which pretty well puts a clincher on any attempt to win a debate. If you enter a debate, you hope to win, but you are also open to being persuaded. I see the people who simply advance the dogma of their church as librarians. They will look up the Rolodex of their minds forinformation to counter your argument and advance that material, but it should never be expected they will combine this knowledge to formulate an original idea. These people would better serve as a referal service, and I think they really have no place in debates. I am a member of another forum and there is one person that is all she/he does. Her ideas are never hers and she spends her time quoting and cutting and pasting. I usually avoid a debate of such topics and simply express an opinion. If you debate someone else's quote then you are debating an abstract opponent.
Usually in a Catholic forum advancing a positive in favor of the magisterium will gain you points, advancing a negative sets you off as a prime target who could be labelled for "punishment" for having the audacity to venture off the beaten path and advance your own theories. Here you could risk being labelled as many not so nice things (which ironically is against the precepts of Christianity). I had one person on a forum who stated in a e-letter that he picks platforms just so he can see what mettle or resolve and confidence the other person has in himself. So the former attitude is rediculous to say the least.
The key thing to remember is to keep the subject of the thread in focus at all times and that is what is being debated, and when the going really gets tough and unable to counter the opponent, it is difficult for him to remain focused and there is a tendancy to grasp at straws. One "straw" is attacking the person, rather than the idea.
One should never get caught up in being taken off guard in this and he should focus and always use reasoning and logic. That is difficult in mystical and phylosophical debates such as religious debates, and one should expect a good part of the data being value data based on common knowledge, sense and reasoning rather than concrete evidence such as statistics.
Basically a debate forum starts from a proposition which is an arguable statement. A good proposition:
- can be argued on both sides
- contains a single idea
- is relevant and significant
- is controversial
There are many aspects to a successful debate forum. The E-forum usually doesn't have a judge and time keepers for limiters but that is common. Here are a couple of sites on the subject:
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=324134
http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml
www.newadvent.org
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/ (works of St. Thomas Aquinas)
and if your Catholic, the Catechism in layman's language, very easy and light reading
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
AndyF
A few things about Christian forums. In Christian religious forums one should keep in mind that there is an underlying agenda. Those advancing it's cause are so to speak e-Jehovas and that is because it is a requirement in their religion. I don't know if this is so in other religions. In Catholic forums the magisterium is always correct, which pretty well puts a clincher on any attempt to win a debate. If you enter a debate, you hope to win, but you are also open to being persuaded. I see the people who simply advance the dogma of their church as librarians. They will look up the Rolodex of their minds forinformation to counter your argument and advance that material, but it should never be expected they will combine this knowledge to formulate an original idea. These people would better serve as a referal service, and I think they really have no place in debates. I am a member of another forum and there is one person that is all she/he does. Her ideas are never hers and she spends her time quoting and cutting and pasting. I usually avoid a debate of such topics and simply express an opinion. If you debate someone else's quote then you are debating an abstract opponent.
Usually in a Catholic forum advancing a positive in favor of the magisterium will gain you points, advancing a negative sets you off as a prime target who could be labelled for "punishment" for having the audacity to venture off the beaten path and advance your own theories. Here you could risk being labelled as many not so nice things (which ironically is against the precepts of Christianity). I had one person on a forum who stated in a e-letter that he picks platforms just so he can see what mettle or resolve and confidence the other person has in himself. So the former attitude is rediculous to say the least.
The key thing to remember is to keep the subject of the thread in focus at all times and that is what is being debated, and when the going really gets tough and unable to counter the opponent, it is difficult for him to remain focused and there is a tendancy to grasp at straws. One "straw" is attacking the person, rather than the idea.
One should never get caught up in being taken off guard in this and he should focus and always use reasoning and logic. That is difficult in mystical and phylosophical debates such as religious debates, and one should expect a good part of the data being value data based on common knowledge, sense and reasoning rather than concrete evidence such as statistics.
Basically a debate forum starts from a proposition which is an arguable statement. A good proposition:
- can be argued on both sides
- contains a single idea
- is relevant and significant
- is controversial
There are many aspects to a successful debate forum. The E-forum usually doesn't have a judge and time keepers for limiters but that is common. Here are a couple of sites on the subject:
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=324134
http://www.truthtree.com/debates.shtml
I don't think so, but if you realize he is not up to your capabilities, it's best to slack off a bit to give him room to maneuver. All cases are a challenge and healthy and always an opportunity to learn and teach. Even if one doesn't win an argument, one learned how to deal with this particular situation. Every person is a potential convert(religion), even the hostile. But one should research first before advancing an argument. And one should admit not knowing if that is the case. This way he may get to learn something new. Good sites are:
www.newadvent.org
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/ (works of St. Thomas Aquinas)
and if your Catholic, the Catechism in layman's language, very easy and light reading
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
AndyF
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All good points. However, since joining this forum I've finally realized it is futile to discuss this topic with some of the people here. Their sole intention in joining these threads are to ridicule and mock. They have no interest in discussing the theme of the thread. Therefore, I strongly advise to just skip over these people's posts. Most have an agenda that they make very clear from the onset. The thread could be about the role of Mary in the Church and person A jumps in with complaints about the Church's position on homosexual behaviour. Person B adds comments about God being a myth. Person C feels it must be mentioned that the Church has done this or that terrible thing at some point in its long history, and on it goes. The topic gets forgotten as the Christians attempt, once again, to defend the whole of their faith.
The point is, its best to identify these people in order to skip over their posts. Replying to them only feeds their fires.
The best thing really, is to find a Christian centred forum."Catholic Answers" is a very good one!
I quite agree with you sanctus! Except that one has to wonder if you're in denial of what is really going on here! I Have read, in these forums, from Christians/Catholics, and aimed at non believers, such insults as; "Non Christians, and non believers are" 'inferior souls," "Whining brats," "The enemies heart, (evil heart)" "..can't be taken seriously, and are empty inside," "Not of sound quality to debate," and "Jealous of Christ!" to mention but a few of the less hurtful ones! You, as Christians/Catholics don't have the monopoly on feeling hurt, ridiculed, slighted, or having your philosophies rubbished! What does amaze me, is that someone of whom is in the unique position that you are, appears to encourage your own followers to insult and mock non Christian/believers, but, moreover, counsell them to ignore those which do not fit into your clique! In other words segregate and divide! Love thy neighbour? That's a laugh... I almost left CC this week due to a feeling of being a 'pariah,' for being a non believer, because I felt that the forum had too many tunnel visioned followers of Christianity/Catholicism of whom were resolute in their determination to oust all who didn't follow 'the faith!' Had it not been for two people who made me see that this was not the case, I would have dusted my shoes off and departed from a very good forum, because there seemed no alternative! It's my belief that you are failing in your job as a man of the cloth, by allowing this segregation to continue, when you could so easily do so much more than you are to smooth the issue! Shame on you!
I deeply regret your discomfort as you expressed it, and if in any way you feel I have contributed to this feeling, forgive me. You over-estimate my influence over people who, for the most part, I do not know outside of this online forum.
I assume I am part of your discomfort, and as such, I will withdraw from this forum in order to avoid causing you any more upset.
Of course I heartily forgive you sanctus... it is not in my nature to do otherwise. However, I do think that you underestimate your influence; Catholic people do look up to you, as is only right. Please do something to alleviate the hatred, that is coming from both sides. :wave:
marygaspe, I named no names.. that would have been unforgivable of me; and, moreover, I have stated in another thread that I like you! This can only be a form of emotional blackmail by stating that you are leaving, and you are worth far more than that!
Being superior and talking down to people is what I object to about religious zealotry, you cannot successfully make a condemnation of a position you support.It looks silly.:wave:
Sanctus/Mary/Westmanguy
If I missed some of the faithful in my address - I apologize I am too lazy to go back to the beginning, but if you start up a topic on How To Debate - putting in who can and who cannot post - would defeat the purpose of the query would it not?
If you are willing to put out your faith for people to read and understand (I have learned much from you Sanctus and I appreciate it ), people don't have to fall all over themselves trying to please you and convert on the spot - I think that is not the intention here...
What I do like is to read those who are deeply rooted in faith... not only the R.C. Church but of other faiths as well ... for understanding not derision.
If we all agreed with what is put out daily for us to read and nobody challenged the literature .... we would soon find boredom....and learning would quickly take a back seat to a pie throwing contest ....
There will always be naysayers....any faithful person knows this to be true...... it doesn't demean the faithful in any way.
If I missed some of the faithful in my address - I apologize I am too lazy to go back to the beginning, but if you start up a topic on How To Debate - putting in who can and who cannot post - would defeat the purpose of the query would it not?
If you are willing to put out your faith for people to read and understand (I have learned much from you Sanctus and I appreciate it ), people don't have to fall all over themselves trying to please you and convert on the spot - I think that is not the intention here...
What I do like is to read those who are deeply rooted in faith... not only the R.C. Church but of other faiths as well ... for understanding not derision.
If we all agreed with what is put out daily for us to read and nobody challenged the literature .... we would soon find boredom....and learning would quickly take a back seat to a pie throwing contest ....
There will always be naysayers....any faithful person knows this to be true...... it doesn't demean the faithful in any way.
Yes, I entirely agree darkbeaver, and I would never surrender my ideals to anyone. However, I never belabor a point. I don't like to rock the boat too drastically; that would defeat the object, which is to try to stop the divide widening. Also, I would hate for anyone to leave on my account. It's entirely unecessary, and deep down, marygaspe knows that. :wave:
Religion is always a hot topic. At the beginning I also got hot under the collar because I do have some hang-ups with the RC religion. I voiced a few (?) at the beginning but with a lot of patience Sanctus has erased some. My Mother, God rest her soul, would be very happy.
Sometimes we can read a post and become so upset that we just want to right what we think is a wrong. If it is an insult, it is not worth responding, ignore. If it is an opposite view, always remember either the person is asking a question or they really believe in what they are saying just like you.
Discussion and debating is something we learn. Insulting is neither. This forum and CC are interesting because of the diversity of opinions and ideas but you have to choose what subjects decide to join.
Religion divides man because each believes he has the right beliefs. Some beliefs are good, some are no so good, and some we just don't understant but that does not mean anyone is stupid or deverves to be insulted. Here we have an opportunity to show people of all beliefs that no matter what religion or belief we have we are still brother and sisters.
There is an expression I think applies: "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". If words hurt us it is because we allow it and we give that person the power to hurt us.
Sometimes we can read a post and become so upset that we just want to right what we think is a wrong. If it is an insult, it is not worth responding, ignore. If it is an opposite view, always remember either the person is asking a question or they really believe in what they are saying just like you.
Discussion and debating is something we learn. Insulting is neither. This forum and CC are interesting because of the diversity of opinions and ideas but you have to choose what subjects decide to join.
Religion divides man because each believes he has the right beliefs. Some beliefs are good, some are no so good, and some we just don't understant but that does not mean anyone is stupid or deverves to be insulted. Here we have an opportunity to show people of all beliefs that no matter what religion or belief we have we are still brother and sisters.
There is an expression I think applies: "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". If words hurt us it is because we allow it and we give that person the power to hurt us.
Religion divides you know why? Because religion is man made. Every form of religion is someones ideals that found an audience of followers.
Because of that then, religion becomes grounds for a fight.
Instead of loving thy neighbor, it is I am right and you are wrong, so get out of here you @#$%. Whatever superlatives are expressed from the heart.
I believe as a non-denominational entity, separate from all religious thoughts and adhere to the one individual of whom the whole bible is centered on. Jesus Christ.
He tells me why I am here, and why He saved me, and how I should live justly in the flesh.
Of all the rules regulations and plus the Ten Commandments, Jesus condensed them all into two:
1. Love God with all thy mind, heart and soul
2. Love thy neighbor as thy self.
That means that if I love God, I should desire and want to love my neighbor as my self, holding no ill will for crimes done against me and forgiving as Jesus forgave.
No derogatory remarks, no condemnations but to just demonstrate to mankind what God is all about.
This has to be a learned experience, an on the job training through suffering. No body can learn how to be right unless first he is introduced to the wrong and allowed to come to a conclusion.
Whether right or wrong, allowances have be implemented by God in the word: forgiveness.
If one was to die right now, all that you feel about life, pride, envies, hate will all cease.
But love on the other hand is of God, and anything done in love here will not go unrewarded plus it will never die.
Love will go on to eternity and you, me will know who we are by our own personalities modified.
Transformed the bible says into a new body awaiting us in heaven.
Now if that is not something to look forward to, than what is?
This life offers nothing but suffering and pain.
If this life is all there is as some espouse, then where is the hope? The hope for our children and children's children?
Do we want to leave them the same old life without hope to them?
Absolutely not I 'd say! I want my children to learn what I have learned and improve on that learning for their own kids.
One day, if all would do that, then that utopia, of peace amongst all mankind can be achieved.
That is why, I can not level any accusations of condemnation to non-believers for I am as one forgiven. If I am forgiven, what should I not forgive?
LOOK! That is my handle, signature or stage name, and that is what I want people to do.
Look at all the options presented on these forums and make up your own minds as to what is good and what is not.
Everybody does not experience life the same way, so that means that one rule does not fit every situation. (That rule as referring to religion.)
But love does fit every situation and is universally,transcending all cultural barriers, languages and religious beliefs.
My home base is love, a foundation laid down by Christ, of which no evil can penetrate to destroy or injure me.
That may sound arrogant to some, but I am truly grounded on love and hope that I may demonstrate it in all my posts.
If I should fail ( unwillingly)at some point, I will seek resolution to remedy it immediately, of which I have the confidence of forgiveness.
Sparrow is a bird mentioned in the bible as having God watching over it, and declaring that we being much better than it, having more love extended to us.
Interesting don't you think?
Peace>>>AJ
Interesting thoughts guys.
Thank you for all the constructive opinions, with the exclusion of 1 or 2.
I have added 3-4 people to my ignore list in my ControlPanel, so I will never be tempted to reply to people I think are "hurters"
people like, gc, sparrow, L. Gilbert, and others, that are rational people on the other side of the fence I respect and like to debate with.
But I think all of us rational people on both sides need to unite and learn to ignore and stray away from posts that are insulting, hurtful, and off-topic, in any type of debate.
Thanks to everyone.
And in my emotional defenses in religious threads, if I hurt anyone, I am deeply sorry, and need to learn to debate with a clear head.
Thank you for all the constructive opinions, with the exclusion of 1 or 2.
I have added 3-4 people to my ignore list in my ControlPanel, so I will never be tempted to reply to people I think are "hurters"
people like, gc, sparrow, L. Gilbert, and others, that are rational people on the other side of the fence I respect and like to debate with.
But I think all of us rational people on both sides need to unite and learn to ignore and stray away from posts that are insulting, hurtful, and off-topic, in any type of debate.
Thanks to everyone.
And in my emotional defenses in religious threads, if I hurt anyone, I am deeply sorry, and need to learn to debate with a clear head.
I agree with you, I even got tired of myself, so I backed off, but, I do think she is reactive to
anything which is slightly controversial, I guess she wants "just" a catholic discussion with no interference (in her mind) from anyone who disagrees, and she also doesn't mind labelling others
constantly as well, so, what goes around comes around. And, atheists have to defend their
position as well. Atheists are "just" the other side of your belief, not sickheaded, or bad people.
We have a position too, no different than "believers".
But, again, I am seeing what you are saying, it gets tiring after awhile, I will go and talk hockey for awhile, take care, and have a good day.
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It isn't just religion that divides. Look at the dispariy between your interpretation of the bible and that of the Catholic interpretation or that of Jehovah's Witness, or even my interpretation. It is faith itself that causes the disparity.
.........
Whether the rest of the planet wants it or not.
Faiths refuse to just comment that people should find their way through troubles and tribulations and instead impose their faiths on people insisting that faith is the only way through things. Sorry, but I found my own way through the vast majority of difficulties without the "help" of faith. So it ISN'T the only way.
.........
So love enables you to remember who all the grandmothers of grandmothers on your mother's side were, for instance?
love is love. It is a human condition and nothing more, nothing less. There is no evidence that shows this god's love that cannot be countered by evidence of this god's indifference or rage.
.............
For you maybe. Mine's pretty happy around here. Even when I escape here and stick my face in CC or even go into town I can usually find some happiness.
?????
lmao. You think that hope is strictly limited to the domain of faith? Nuts. I hope my kids will have lives as good or better as my wife's and mine. I hope my kids' kids will have good lives. If they need to feel that life itself isn't enough and therefore have to believe in lives after death and all that nonsense, it will sadden me a bit but it's up to them. My life is enough for me.
If pigs only had wings, maybe they could fly, too. Or if we didn't have to eat then we wouldn't have to kill.
That's bearing false witness. You've told or in the least implied that we atheists have evil hearts because they are empty, we have inferior souls, etc.
And the Catholic faith isn't for everyone, nor is Buddhism, nor is Paganism, nor is atheism, yet you insist on foisting yours on everyone here.