76,000$ study to sell Afghan "war"
- Thread starter mabudon
- Start date
No I suspect he didn't, but what exactly does that have to do with it? I'm not sure what it is you are elluding to here.
It wasn't illegal or unethical, it is an action taken by regional, provincial and federal governments across the country all the time.
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this all seems like one big disscussion on 'the bad Conservative gov't' but i think everyone tends to forget when these things started..and that was five years ago..Paul Martin was big on the whole pro American thing and he sent the Canadian troops into war...hes was just better on selling it as peacekeeping...look at what the conservatives are doing strengthening our ties with the united states and getting back some of our money the the rotten liberals spent form our hard earned cash...them @%# holes put canada into debt....also good on 'harpo'...without the United States where would Canada be now.
The difference here is that with this spending by the conservative government you know exactly where the money went and what value you got for the money. The left is upset because they don't agree with the what the money was spent on. When it was the Liberals and a 'few million dollars went missing' there was no problem because the left agreed with what the money was intended for - the fact that it ended up in the Liberal party coffers is still ok to them.
What the concervatives did ensures that they are accountable for their actions to the country. Whether you agree with the study you know where the money went.
What the Liberals did is called theft.
What the concervatives did ensures that they are accountable for their actions to the country. Whether you agree with the study you know where the money went.
What the Liberals did is called theft.
"Value" for the money??
Man, with roughly a dozen words costing 75 GRAND, that's around 8 THOUSAND DOLLARS per word- it would have cost me nothin to go look in a thesaurus for weasel words and euphemisms and I bet my list would have been better
And to everyone posting here who is saying this is ""Liberals attacking the good conservatives" and that "they can shut up since THEY sent troops in the first place"... you can all kind of shut up, I am NO Liberal, I didn't support the "mission" from the outset but grudgingly accepted it with a kind of "oh well, wait and see I suppose" attitude, and as each day passes and the "light at the end of the tunnel" gets more elusive I see NO reason for continuing it
Doesn't matter WHO started it, they were wrong, and simply smugly trying to suggest that this current government is doing what "everyone wanted all along" is patently ridiculous
So yeah, here's hoping Harper at least uses these words a little, it'll be black humour but even that can be funny sometimes I guess
And WHY oh WHY does EVERYTHING have to be SO partisan?? To suggest that I can't have an opinion on this because of what someone else did in the past is also pretty small-minded, I am no part supporter and feel I have the right to evaluate whatever I want- I figure it makes more sense watching what is happening NOW and what could be just around the corner than to waste my time decrying administrations gone by- when are folks participating in this thread gonna dredge up "Taliban Jack" or maybe "Rae Days" as some sort of idiotic, obfusticatory tangent to this actual discussion??
If you want to rip on the sponsorship scandal, there'a threads for that already- this thread is about the current government wasting money selling a whitewashed piece of cold-war era garbage
Man, with roughly a dozen words costing 75 GRAND, that's around 8 THOUSAND DOLLARS per word- it would have cost me nothin to go look in a thesaurus for weasel words and euphemisms and I bet my list would have been better
And to everyone posting here who is saying this is ""Liberals attacking the good conservatives" and that "they can shut up since THEY sent troops in the first place"... you can all kind of shut up, I am NO Liberal, I didn't support the "mission" from the outset but grudgingly accepted it with a kind of "oh well, wait and see I suppose" attitude, and as each day passes and the "light at the end of the tunnel" gets more elusive I see NO reason for continuing it
Doesn't matter WHO started it, they were wrong, and simply smugly trying to suggest that this current government is doing what "everyone wanted all along" is patently ridiculous
So yeah, here's hoping Harper at least uses these words a little, it'll be black humour but even that can be funny sometimes I guess
And WHY oh WHY does EVERYTHING have to be SO partisan?? To suggest that I can't have an opinion on this because of what someone else did in the past is also pretty small-minded, I am no part supporter and feel I have the right to evaluate whatever I want- I figure it makes more sense watching what is happening NOW and what could be just around the corner than to waste my time decrying administrations gone by- when are folks participating in this thread gonna dredge up "Taliban Jack" or maybe "Rae Days" as some sort of idiotic, obfusticatory tangent to this actual discussion??
If you want to rip on the sponsorship scandal, there'a threads for that already- this thread is about the current government wasting money selling a whitewashed piece of cold-war era garbage
Right mabudon
I hate to see any government spend good money to dress up what could be a largely unpopular policy. I didn't like it when the liberals did it and I don't like it now. Spending money to get some wordsmith to supply cover up phrases to make a policy more palatable smacks of dishonesty.
I hate to see any government spend good money to dress up what could be a largely unpopular policy. I didn't like it when the liberals did it and I don't like it now. Spending money to get some wordsmith to supply cover up phrases to make a policy more palatable smacks of dishonesty.
It's a common mission statement, it became fashionable sometime ago to hire the spinning machines to determine the apropriate language to motivate the masses behind the mission. This is dishonest right down to the core, if the partys in power can't articulate thier positions without the use of corporate hacks they shouldn't be in power.I'll agree with the others on this thread who object to the constant reference to the corruption of the last government as somehow spilling any light on this discussion, it adds nothing, this New Government of Canada is a poor quality knockoff of the ruling organ in the United States, the previous liberal government had it stayed in power would be involved in the same crap just a whole lot more sophisticated and polished than the cowboy clowns now in power, the problem is not particular to any party it's mainly to do with the system within which all of them are forced to perform, that being the corporate security complex which rules every aspect of our lives. The NDP performs no better, it has to bow and scrape to the Holy Western Economy same as the rest of us.:wave:
Yep, if it was Wayne Gretzky leading the Government right now, I'd have posted this thread and made the SAME COMMENTS.
Both of you made excellent points that somehow escaped me until now, the notion that it is kinda odd that the Government with the "Big Plans" needs help making their "Big Plans" look worthy of any popular support...
In the article, I found it kind of funny how the "negative media coverage" was shown as a problem facing Harper, and that the reason there was negative media coverage is because Harper and his gang have NOTHING to say, leaving a huge void where actual coverage should be... even tho the article is pretty mild, there is an echo of the US admin in there (something that a LOT of the cheerleaders enjoy trotting out as well) as far as somehow the media ignores "the good news" and that the media are somehow bending over backwards to avoid all the geat news that's out there.. THAT is sophism at work, I would have to think, seeing as the media is basically state controlled, what possible interest could there be in making the government and its efforts look bad??
WHY would the corporate media do such a thing?? I still can't grasp the logic behind that oft-repeated charge, so hopefully someone here could illuminate it.....
Why doesn't the media cover Japanese people who have multiple limbs and wings very much?? I'll tell ya, it's not because of any conspiracy, tho from the "media hiding the good news in Afghanistan" line of logic, I think maybe the media should be FORCED to show the "other side" of that story too- I wanna see 8-legged flying Japanese people get the coverage they've been denied for so long, right there next to the "GREAT NEWS from Afghanistan" daily feature
Both of you made excellent points that somehow escaped me until now, the notion that it is kinda odd that the Government with the "Big Plans" needs help making their "Big Plans" look worthy of any popular support...
In the article, I found it kind of funny how the "negative media coverage" was shown as a problem facing Harper, and that the reason there was negative media coverage is because Harper and his gang have NOTHING to say, leaving a huge void where actual coverage should be... even tho the article is pretty mild, there is an echo of the US admin in there (something that a LOT of the cheerleaders enjoy trotting out as well) as far as somehow the media ignores "the good news" and that the media are somehow bending over backwards to avoid all the geat news that's out there.. THAT is sophism at work, I would have to think, seeing as the media is basically state controlled, what possible interest could there be in making the government and its efforts look bad??
WHY would the corporate media do such a thing?? I still can't grasp the logic behind that oft-repeated charge, so hopefully someone here could illuminate it.....
Why doesn't the media cover Japanese people who have multiple limbs and wings very much?? I'll tell ya, it's not because of any conspiracy, tho from the "media hiding the good news in Afghanistan" line of logic, I think maybe the media should be FORCED to show the "other side" of that story too- I wanna see 8-legged flying Japanese people get the coverage they've been denied for so long, right there next to the "GREAT NEWS from Afghanistan" daily feature
Steve didn't "continue" anything. He created a whole new mandate.
Bill Graham at the Nov 2005 take note...
10 more sleeps and the next year's commitment is ALL Harper. Only in the year after that does he get to share the responsibility with a few dozen Liberals. Good luck with that.
lmao, Calvin and Hobs, that's where I got my "Heaven don't want and hells afraid I'll take over" sigy from at this forum I used to Mod at.
Last time I checked my city wasn't at war with anybody. It is pertinent, however, that the last time it was one of the first things to be siezed was the printing press.
Not necessarily, but in the case of something like this, I would say it was a waste of money, alls you have to do is read the article to see what the idea behind the study is- it says to me, at least, that folks by and large think the "mission" is totally pointless and the "victory" we're lookin for is not going to happen- and seriously, I have NOT been tricked into this line of thinking by people who use studies to sway my opinion....
So what the article basically is saying is that MANY of the actual "objectives" as stated by HArper and his gang are at least malleable and at worst totally fictitious- the study suggests totally re-branding the "mission"..
So looking at it in plain terms, it shows
1) that the way the "war" was being sold in the past was not in fact the actual reasons for anything, just a set of talking points to lay on the people who should have been so thankful that WE were being "saved from terrorists" that we'd swallow anything
and that 2) rather than come up with any REAL answers, the packaging needs to be changed as people are not as gullible as they initially hoped
I think THAT is the problem many of us have
And laugh it up, for those of you who have nothing to say, it's fools like that this stuff is designed for in the first place so I am not surprised that you think this whole deal is funny
So what the article basically is saying is that MANY of the actual "objectives" as stated by HArper and his gang are at least malleable and at worst totally fictitious- the study suggests totally re-branding the "mission"..
So looking at it in plain terms, it shows
1) that the way the "war" was being sold in the past was not in fact the actual reasons for anything, just a set of talking points to lay on the people who should have been so thankful that WE were being "saved from terrorists" that we'd swallow anything
and that 2) rather than come up with any REAL answers, the packaging needs to be changed as people are not as gullible as they initially hoped
I think THAT is the problem many of us have
And laugh it up, for those of you who have nothing to say, it's fools like that this stuff is designed for in the first place so I am not surprised that you think this whole deal is funny
I do not know any soldiers that spent time in this war but I don't like the idea that our gov. trying to sell us on the war like Bush sold the people on the Iraq war. If the British and the Russians were unable to win in Afghanistan why should we think that we will win. Instead of trying to sell this war give us reasonable proof that we are succeeding. This back and forth between NATO and Taliban fighting repeatedly over the same areas is proof that nothing is being accomplished. Maybe if the media informed of the postive aspects as well as the fighting we might see this war differently. As it is today the Afghan war mirrors the Iraq war and many Canadians are uneasy.
NATO was asked to go to Afghanistan by their government, that was put in by a foreign government after the Russians were ejected. Who says this was the wish of the people, were they ever asked for their opinion. NO! It is true that compared to our standards these people were and in some parts of the country are miserable, but by what right do we say that we know what is right or wrong from them.
I have no objection to trying to bring peace to the area and I also realize that in this circumstance there will be fighting. However instead of fighting their war enable them to fight themselves. Help the people in the villages fight the Taliban, if that is what they want, even if it means our soldiers fighting along with them. Not just training a so called Afghan army but give the ordinary people help to stand up for themselves. We are beginning to get echos that the people are getting fed up with the fighting (just like in Iraq where the people say they had more security with Saddam) and will soon turn against our soldiers.
We entered this war with the best of intentions but that never helped win a war.
The Liberals got us into this and the Conservative are prolonging this, now they say into 2011. That is much too long. There is a point that we have to ask what are we doing and what are we accomplishing because it is our loved ones who are sacrifice their lives. It is of them that we must now think, it is not reasonable to ask them to put their lives on the line without giving them a conclusion date.
NATO was asked to go to Afghanistan by their government, that was put in by a foreign government after the Russians were ejected. Who says this was the wish of the people, were they ever asked for their opinion. NO! It is true that compared to our standards these people were and in some parts of the country are miserable, but by what right do we say that we know what is right or wrong from them.
I have no objection to trying to bring peace to the area and I also realize that in this circumstance there will be fighting. However instead of fighting their war enable them to fight themselves. Help the people in the villages fight the Taliban, if that is what they want, even if it means our soldiers fighting along with them. Not just training a so called Afghan army but give the ordinary people help to stand up for themselves. We are beginning to get echos that the people are getting fed up with the fighting (just like in Iraq where the people say they had more security with Saddam) and will soon turn against our soldiers.
We entered this war with the best of intentions but that never helped win a war.
The Liberals got us into this and the Conservative are prolonging this, now they say into 2011. That is much too long. There is a point that we have to ask what are we doing and what are we accomplishing because it is our loved ones who are sacrifice their lives. It is of them that we must now think, it is not reasonable to ask them to put their lives on the line without giving them a conclusion date.
So it's not the money or the process, it's the purpose that has you all upset?
I guess I can by that, if you are against the whole notion of the war. Are you? Are you upset with the Liberals for sending the Troops there in the first place too?
So like Bit(maybe), you object to the purpose as apposed to the method or the funds?
I know several of the Soldiers there, here waiting to go back there, here training to go there, been there, got the T-shirt and came back to do other things, Sparrow. I will admit some of them were not happy with what they saw, did, but they still stand behind the mission. That's the Army way.
Just out of curiousity, for those of you upset about the amount of money spent on the "re-branding"(I like that mabudon), you missed this in the process. Harpo started a commitee, to find ways to cut costs, to the tune of 1.7 million, it has since ballooned to 24 million. Now that is ridiculous. Now the outrage over that would be warranted.
CDNBear
know several of the Soldiers there, here waiting to go back there, here training to go there, been there, got the T-shirt and came back to do other things, Sparrow. I will admit some of them were not happy with what they saw, did, but they still stand behind the mission. That's the Army way
I understant this is the Army way and I would be disappointed if it was not, I admire the courage and support our men. However they were send there by men behind desks who have never been to war and I am sure haven't the foggiest idea what is going on any better than I do. You I am sure know what they are going through and what a waste it will be when they do leave and nothing has been changed.
Has anyone asked the people of Afghanstin what they want? How much do you want to bet that after our troops leave their government will become a dictatorship with a well trained police,army and armed by us that will treat the people like s*** and the warlords on the way back, or even worse the Taliban back.
I realize we are trying to help the country and the people in our own way and all the good intentions are there, but history shows us that if the population do not want outsiders in their country nor do they join in the figiting to oust a faction, outsiders do not win.
I will try and see if I can find something on how the Afghan people feel about all this, a report or a link.
know several of the Soldiers there, here waiting to go back there, here training to go there, been there, got the T-shirt and came back to do other things, Sparrow. I will admit some of them were not happy with what they saw, did, but they still stand behind the mission. That's the Army way
I understant this is the Army way and I would be disappointed if it was not, I admire the courage and support our men. However they were send there by men behind desks who have never been to war and I am sure haven't the foggiest idea what is going on any better than I do. You I am sure know what they are going through and what a waste it will be when they do leave and nothing has been changed.
Has anyone asked the people of Afghanstin what they want? How much do you want to bet that after our troops leave their government will become a dictatorship with a well trained police,army and armed by us that will treat the people like s*** and the warlords on the way back, or even worse the Taliban back.
I realize we are trying to help the country and the people in our own way and all the good intentions are there, but history shows us that if the population do not want outsiders in their country nor do they join in the figiting to oust a faction, outsiders do not win.
I will try and see if I can find something on how the Afghan people feel about all this, a report or a link.