How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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TNow as for your observations on the tilt of the earth, in my book makes no difference whether it is real or not, because I look at the message behind the story to extract the intended spiritual message.

What is the spiritual message? I'm glad you asked.
Well, I didn't ask, really, and I wasn't talking about the tilt of the earth either, that was about its rotation, but since you've answered anyway, I'll feel free to comment on it.

You are doing what all believers do. We find a description of an event in scripture that we know now cannot possibly be literally true, and there are many such tales. You feel compelled to find meaning in it, so you assign metaphorical roles and meanings to the players and circumstances in it and extract some significance that way, but the explanation is convoluted and arbitrary. It never occurs to you that it might just be a dramatic embellishment of no particular significance beyond being an attempt to impress the credulous.

There are also many tales that if literally true would be deeply repugnant, like the story in 2 Kings where god sends a couple of bears to maul to death 42 children for the hideous crime of making fun of Elishu's baldness. Sanctus tried to explain that in allegorical terms too--unsuccessfully I thought--when I challenged him on it. You probably read that.

Yet at the same time, it's clear from your many biblical citations that you'd claim many things in scripture are to be taken literally. Things we now know to be impossible and things that contemporary morality finds repulsive are interpreted metaphorically, other things are taken at face value, and that shifts with the times. And can you, or sanctus, or m_levesque, or any other of the Christians on this board, explain Solomon's Song to me? I've been told it's an allegory about Christ's love for his church, and other such things, but just read the thing. It's a frankly erotic love poem. It talks about the woman's breasts and belly in very explicit terms. You're never going to convince me that's purely an allegory, it's a dirty book and a very good one. "Thy belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lily flowers..." Yeah, been there. I'd show you a nude photo of my wife--if I had one-- to prove the point, and thought you deserved to see it. I'm surprised Solomon's Song made it into the canon considering how uptight Christianity seems to be about human sexuality.

You can't have it both ways. Either scripture is the true word of god, or it's not. There's no internal clue in the scriptures about what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken allegorically, those are decisions people make based on contemporary ethics and morality. We pick and choose among the many things the Bible tells us are correct behaviours, and turn the rest into allegories and metaphors. Or ignore them. There can be no clearer indication that ethics and morality don't come from religion, that's just a rationalization after the fact.

In other words, just in case I haven't been clear enough, I think you're just making it up.
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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Northern California
Well, I didn't ask, really, and I wasn't talking about the tilt of the earth either, that was about its rotation, but since you've answered anyway, I'll feel free to comment on it. I know you didn’t ask, but some I know would.

You are doing what all believers do. We find a description of an event in scripture that we know now cannot possibly be literally true, and there are many such tales. You feel compelled to find meaning in it, so you assign metaphorical roles and meanings to the players and circumstances in it and extract some significance that way, but the explanation is convoluted and arbitrary.
The tale or the story, if you will, has to fit the underlying element or the structure with is prevalent throughout the bible as a whole and not as one separate incident.
It never occurs to you that it might just be a dramatic embellishment of no particular significance beyond being an attempt to impress the credulous.
NO! It is all written with a purpose which neatly fits together like a puzzle. These pieces are of various designs, shapes and sizes, but together and if placed correctly will reveal the whole picture of many parts.
The failure of many is not knowing where or how to fit them together in its right place so as to add to the finish of the one single portrait of a loving God.
And the failure is by design, that because of it, we should keep on trying to find the right place for each piece.

There are also many tales that if literally true would be deeply repugnant, like the story in 2 Kings where god sends a couple of bears to maul to death 42 children for the hideous crime of making fun of Elishu's baldness. Sanctus tried to explain that in allegorical terms too--unsuccessfully I thought--when I challenged him on it. You probably read that.

I did, but Sanctus is concerned with the duties of a priest, though honorable and praise worthy, has not the understandings which I have, because I am outside the box of the Catholic beliefs, looking in, from a perspective of the word of God, the bible. While Sanctus’ perspective, is in the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

Yet at the same time, it's clear from your many biblical citations that you'd claim many things in scripture are to be taken literally. Not necessarily so. I mentioned the 7-day creation period as not a literal 7,000 years, but perhaps millions.
The things that I take as literal have to do with the actual process of the salvation of mankind, by the Son of God, who came to us in the flesh. This is the main picture that is being representative of the many stories, whether real or not. They must all fit the puzzle or else must be discarded as useless pieces of information.
But as of yet, truly and honestly, I have found the whole bible to be in harmony with all the words that are between its covers.
It’s all a matter of placing them in the giant puzzle correctly to see the whole picture.

Things we now know to be impossible and things that contemporary morality finds repulsive are interpreted metaphorically, other things are taken at face value, and that shifts with the times. And can you, or sanctus, or m_levesque, or any other of the Christians on this board, explain Solomon's Song to me? I've been told it's an allegory about Christ's love for his church, and other such things, but just read the thing. It's a frankly erotic love poem. It talks about the woman's breasts and belly in very explicit terms. You're never going to convince me that's purely an allegory, it's a dirty book and a very good one. "Thy belly is like a heap of wheat fenced about with lily flowers..." Yeah, been there. I'd show you a nude photo of my wife--if I had one-- to prove the point, and thought you deserved to see it. I'm surprised Solomon's Song made it into the canon considering how uptight Christianity seems to be about human sexuality.

You can't have it both ways. Either scripture is the true word of god, or it's not. There's no internal clue in the scriptures about what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken allegorically, those are decisions people make based on contemporary ethics and morality. We pick and choose among the many things the Bible tells us are correct behaviours, and turn the rest into allegories and metaphors. Or ignore them. There can be no clearer indication that ethics and morality don't come from religion, that's just a rationalization after the fact.

In other words, just in case I haven't been clear enough, I think you're just making it up.

Let me explain about book Song of Salmon on my next reply.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
1,952
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Northern California
Song of Salomon

Remember what I said in my last post that all stories or tales must fit a structure that fits the works of God in the salvation of all mankind? Keep that in mind as you read all my explanations on this and all my correspondences here on this thread.

Examples here given, describe in a picture, the workings of God in Jesus as Jesus takes the sins of the world upon Him self.
In the following verse we have the verse in the Book of Solomon as a piece of the puzzle to fit together with the verse in the book of Job, another piece of the puzzle, to get the meanings of it.,

JOB 15:27 Because he (Similitude for Jesus) covereth his face with his fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks.

The face is covered with the scriptures or his fatness. The face is seen drawn in song of Solomon 4:1, hair as goats, teeth as sheep. His flanks are the men with Judas that surround him.

Son 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Son 4:2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.

This is just one example.
Here the meaning of the breast as cluster of grapes.
Verse: Son 7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

The breasts were likened to clusters of grapes, the clusters of grapes to flocks; the breasts were plucked off, as they are all trodden on as grapes in a winepress. Which is: the day of the cross, when the trodding the winepress makes us all one. God also is trodden on. The wine of the wrath of God is the blood of Christ which makes us all one.

Grapes of various sizes, and colors are all gathered to the wine presses and is described as like two breast. Two because: there is the Jewish nation as one, and the Gentile nation as the other.
Both are trodden under by the wine presses of God, as well as with Jesus, as the life blood is squeezed out of the grapes all together as one blood, one cup, of which the blood wine of Jesus makes the whole lump a pure blood, or good wine as one.

Stories are not all literal, but look for the spiritual message in them.
And you will find compliment verses to give meanings to the words in one book to other verses in other books.
Continually: fitting pieces together to arrive at the whole picture.
There is many, many more examples that give witness to the works of Christ.
About the Lion:
I will give you verses from different books tha fit together to get the meanings:

JOH 4:32 But he (JESUS) said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
HOS 13:7 Therefore I (THE LORD SPEAKING) will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
HOS 13:8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
The lord devours them like a lion. And psalms 22:1 will show he is as a roaring lion. The day of the cross he is seeking whom he may devour. And god gave him all mankind.
PSA 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Understand that the devouring by God is the consuming of all sin, the meat of the Lion which devours and tears them apart.
You see, that in order for God to save all mankind, He must devour (Consume) all sin, in order to present us as chaste virgins, or as a bride to Christ. Christ being God.

So, my friend, don’t be so quick to criticize the works of God as just plain fairy tales. For they are all for our benefit of explanation to those whose really want to know God and His mysteries.
I can tell you, that I delight in finding those precious nuggets of truth hidden as treasures waiting to be discovered.

Peace>>> my friend>>>AJ:love9:


 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
And can you, or sanctus, or m_levesque, or any other of the Christians on this board, explain Solomon's Song to me? I.

you asked:)

One of three books of Solomon, contained in the Hebrew, the Greek, and the Christian Canon of the Scriptures. According to the general interpretation the name signifies "most excellent, best song". (Cf. the similar forms of expression in Exodus 26:33; Ezekiel 16:7; Daniel 8:25, used throughout the Bible to denote the highest and best of its kind.) Some commentators, because they have failed to grasp the homogeneousness of the book, regard it as a series or chain of songs.
CONTENTS AND EXPOSITION

The book describes the love for each other of Solomon and the Sulamitess in lyrico-dramatic scenes and reciprocal songs. One part of the composition (iii, 6 to v, 1) is clearly a description of the wedding-day. Here the two chief personages approach each other in stately processlon, and the day is expressly called the wedding-day. Moreover the bridal wreath and the bridal bed are referred to, and six times in this section of the song, although never before or after, the word spouse is used. All that has preceded is now seen to be preparatory to the marriage, while in what follows the Sulamitess is the queen and her garden is the garden of the king (v, 1-vi, 7 sq.), although such expressions as "friend", "beloved", and "dove", are common. Along with the assurances of love for each other, there is a continually progressive action that represents the development of the warm friendship and affection of the pair, then the bridal union and the married life of the royal couple. The bride, however, is exhibited as a simple shepherdess, consequently, when the king takes her, she has to undergo a training for the position of queen; in the course of this training occur various trials and sorrows (3:1; 5:5 sqq.; 6:11 -- Hebrews 12)
Various meanings have been attributed to the contents of the song. Before the sixteenth century tradition gave an allegorical or symbolical meaning to the love of Solomon for the Sulamitess. The view held by the Jewish Synagogue was expressed by Akiba and Aben Ezra; that held by the Church, by Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Augustine, and Jerome. An opinion opposed to these found only isolated expression. Akiba (first century after Christ) speaks severely of those who would strike the book from the Sacred Canon, while St. Philastrius (fourth century) refers to others who regarded it not as the work of the Holy Ghost but as the Composition of a purely sensuous poet. Theodore of Mopsuestia aroused such indignation by declaring the Canticle of Canticles to be a love-song of Solomon's, and his contemptuous treatment of it gave great offense (Mansi, Coll. Conc., IX, 244 sqq; Migne, P.G., LXVI, 699 sqq.). At the OEcumenical Council of Constantinople (553), Theodore's view was rejected as heretic and his own pupil Theoret, brought forward against him unanimous testimony of the Fathers (Migne, P. G., LXXXI, 62). Theodore's opinion was not revived until the sixteenth century, when the Calvinist Sebastien Castalion (Castalio), and also Johannes Clericus, made use of it. The Anabaptists became partisans of this view; later adherents of the same opinion were Michaelis, Teller, Herder, and Eichhorn. A middle position is taken by the "typical" exposition of the book. For the first and immediate sense the typical interpretation holds firmly to the historical and secular meaning, which has always been regarded by the Church as heretical; this interpretation gives, however, to the "Song of Love", a second and higher sense. As, namely, the figure of Solomon was a type of Christ, so is the actual love of Solomon for a shepherdess or for the daughter of Pharaoh, intended as a symbol of the love of Christ for His Church. Honorius of Autun and Luis of Leon (Aloysius Legionensis) did not actually teach this view, although their method of expression might be misleading (cf . Cornelius a Lapide, Prol. in Canticum, c. i). In earlier times reference was often made to a first and literal meaning of the words of a text, which meaning, however, was not the real sense of the context as intended by the author, but was held to be only its external covering or "husk". Entirely dissimilar to this method is the typical exposition of modern times, which accepts an actual double meaning of the text, the two senses being connected and intended by the author. Bossuet and Calmet may, perhaps, be regarded as holding this view; it is unmistakably held by the Protestant commentators Delitzsch and Zockler as also by Kingsbury (in The Speaker's Commentary) and Kossowicz. A few others hold to this view, but the number does not include Lowth (cf. De sacra poesi Hebr. prael., 31). Grotius makes it evident, not so much in words as in the method of exposition, that he is opposed to a higher interpretation. At the present day most non-Catholics are strongly opposed to such an exposition; on the other hand most Catholics accept the allegorical interpretation of the book.
Exposition of the Allegory
The reasons for this interpretation are to be found not only in tradition and the decision of the Church, but also in the song itself. As long as the effort is made to follow the thread of an ordinary love-song, so long will it be impossible to give a coherent exposition, and many despair of ever obtaining a successful interpretation. In the commentary of the present writer, "Comment. in Eccl. et Canticum Canticorum" (Paris, 1890), a number of examples are given of the typical and of the purely secular interpretations, and besides these, in treating of each of the larger divisions, the varying methods of exposition are carefully investigated. The proper connection of scenes and parts can only be found in the realm of the ideal, in allegory. In no other way can the dignity and sanctity befitting the Scriptures be preserved and the striking title, "Song of Songs", receive a satisfactory explanation. The allegory, however, can be shown as possible and obvious by means of numerous passages in the Old and the New Testament, in which the relation of God to the Synagogue and of Christ to the Church or to the adoring soul is represented under the symbol of marriage or betrothal (Jeremiah 2:2; Psalm 44 - Hebrew 45; Hosea 19 sqq., Ezekiel 16:8 sqq., Matthew 25:1 sqq; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23 sqq.; Revelation 19:7 sq., etc.). A similar manner of speaking occurs frequently in Christian literature, nor does it appear forced or artificial. The testimony of Theodoret to the teaching of the Early Church is very important. He names Eusebius in Palestine, Origen in Egypt, Cyprian in Carthage, and "the Elders who stood close to the Apostles", consequently, Basil, the two Gregorys [of Nyssa and Nazianzen -- Ed.], Diodorus, and Chrysostom, "and all in agreement with one another". To these may be added Ambrose (Migne, P. L., XIII, 1855, 1911), Philastrius (Migne, P. L., XII, 1267), Jerome (Migne, P. L. XXII, 547, 395; XXIII, 263), and Augustine (Migne, P. L., XXXIV, 372, 925; XLI, 556). It follows from this, that the typical interpretation, also, contradicts tradition, even if it does not come within the decree pronounced against Theodore of Mopsuestia. This method of exposition has, moreover, very few adherents, because the typical can only be applied to separate individuals or things, and cannot be used for the interpretation of a connected text which contains only one genuine and proper meaning. The foundation of the typical interpretation is destroyed at once when the historical explanation is held to be indefensible.
In the allegorical interpretation of the song, it makes no essential difference whether the bride is taken as a symbol of the Synagogue, that is, of the congregation of the Old Covenant or of the Church of God of the New Covenant. In truth, the song turns aside from both; by the spouse should be understood human nature as elected (electa elevata, sc. natura humana) and received by God. This is embodied, above all, in the great Church of God upon earth, which God takes to Himself with the love of a bridegroom, makes the crowning point of all His external works, and adorns with the bridal ornament of supernatural grace. In the song the bride is not reproached with sins and guilt but, on the contrary, her good qualities and beauty receive high praise; consequently, the chosen community of God appears here under that form which is according to the Apostle, without spot or blemish (Ephesians 5:27). It is plain that the Canticle of Canticles finds its most evident application to the most holy Humanity of Jesus Christ, which is united in the most intimate bond of love with the Godhead, and is absolutely spotless and essentially sanctified; after this to the most holy Mother of God as the most beautiful flower of the Church of God. (In regard to a twofold sense of this kind of in the Scriptures, cf. "Zeitschrift fur katholische Theologie", 1903, p. 381.) The soul that has been purified by grace is also in a more remote yet real sense a worthly bride of Lord. The actual meaning of Canticles is not, however, to be limited to any one of these applications, but is to be appropriated to the elected "bride of God in her relation of devotion to God".
As a matter of fact, the spiritual interpretation of the song has proved a rich source for mystical theology and asceticism. It is only necessary to call to mind the best of the old commentaries and interpretations of the book. There are still in existence fifteen homilies by St. Gregory of Nyssa on the first six chapters (Migne, P. G., XLI, 755 sqq.). The commentary of Theodoret (Migne, P. G., LXXXI, 27 sqq.) is rich in suggestion. In the eleventh century Psellus compiled a "Catena" from the writings of Nilus, Gregory of Nyssa, and Maximus (Auctar. bibl. Patr., II, 681 sqq.). Among the Latins Ambrose made such frequent use of the Canticle of Canticles that a whole commentary may be developed from the many applications, rich in piety, that he made of it (Migne, P. L., XV, 1851 sqq.). Three commentaries are to be found in the works of Gregory the Great (Migne, P L., LXXIX, 471 sqq., 905; CLXXX, 441 sqq.). Apponius wrote a very comprehensive commentary which, even as late as 1843, was republished at Rome. The Venerable Bede prepared the matter for a number of smaller commentaries. The elaborate exposition by Honorius of Autun of the book in its historical, allegorical, tropological, and anagogical meanings deserves special mention. The eighty-six homilies left by St. Bernard are universally known. Gilbert of Hoyland added to this number forty-eight more. The greatest of the saints enkindled their love for God on the tender expressions of affection of Christ and His bride, the Church, in the Canticle of Canticles. Even in Old Testament times it must have greatly consoled the Hebrews to read of the eternal covenant of love between God and His faithful people.
Within certain limits the application to the relation between God and the individual soul adorned with supernatural grace is self-evident and an aid to virtuous living. The bride is first raised by the bridegroom to a relation of complete affection, afterwards betrothed or married (iii 6-v, 1), and, finally, after a successful activity (vii, 12 sq.; viii, 11 sq.); is received into the heavenly dwellings. A life of contemplation and activity bound up with painful trials is the way there. In the Breviary and Missal the Church has repeatedly applied the song to the Mother of God (see B. Schafer in Komment., p. 255 sqq.). In truth the bride adorned with the beauty of spotless purity and deep affection is a figure most appropriate to the Mother of God. This is the reason why St. Ambrose in his book "De virginibus", so repeatedly and especially quotes Canticles. Finally, the application of the song to the history of the life of Christ and of the Church offers pious thought rich material for contemplation. In doing thus the natural course of the song can, in some measure, be followed. At His entrance into life, and especially at the time of His public activity as a teachers the Saviour sought the Church, His bride and she came lovingly towards Him. He united Himself with her at the Cross (iii, 11), the Church itself makes use of this thought in a number of offices. The affectionate conversations with the bride (to ch. v, 1) take place after the Resurrection. What follows may be referred to the later history of the Church. A distinction should be made in such methods of interpretation, however, between what may be accepted as certain or probable in the context and what pious contemplation has, more or less arbitrarily, added. For this reason, it is important to ascertain more exactly than was done in earlier times the genuine and true sense of the text.
LITERARY FORM OF THE SONG

Both of the traditional poetic accentuation and language used to express the thoughts show the book to be a genuine poem. The attempt has been made in various ways to prove the existence of a definite metre in the Hebrew text. The opinion of the present writer is that a six-syllable trochaic metre may be applied to the original Hebrerw version (De re metrica Hebraeorum, Freiburg, Baden, 1880). e and true sense of the text. The essentially lyrical character of the song is unmistakable. But as various voices and scenes appear, neither should the dramatic character of the poem fail of recognition; it is, however, evident that the development of an external action is not so much the intention as the unfolding of the lyrical expression of feeling under varying circumstances. The cantata form of composition is suggested by the presence of a chorus of the "daughters of Jerusalem" though the text does not indicate clearly how the words are divided among the various characters. This accounts for the theory put forward at times that there are different personages who, as bride and bridegroom, or as lovers, talk with, or of, cach other. Stickel in his commentary assigns three different persons to the role of the bridegroom, and two to that of the bride. But such arbitrary treatment is the result of the attempt to make the Canticle of Canticles into a drama suitable for the stage.
Unity of the Canticle
The commentator just mentioned and other exegetes start from the natural conviction that the poem, simply called the Song of Songs and handed down to posterity as a book, must be regarded as a homogeneous whole. It is evident that the three clearly distinguished roles of bridegroom, bride, and chorus maintain their plainly defined characters from beginning to end; in the same way certain other designations, as "beloved", "friend", etc., and certain refrains keep recurring. Moreover, several parts apparently repeat one another, and a peculiar phraseology is found throughout the book. The attempt has, however, been made to resolve the poem into separate songs (some twenty in all); thus has been tried by Herder, Eichhorn, Goethe, Reuss, Stade, Budde, and Siegfried. But It has been found exceedingly difficult to separate these songs from one another, and to give to each lyric a meaning dlstinctly its own. Goethe believed this impossible, and it is necessary to resort to a working over of the songs by the person who collected them. But in this everything would depend on a vague personal impression. It is true that a mutual dependence of all the parts cannot be maintained in the secular (historical) interpretation. For, even in the historical hypothesis, the attempt to obtain a flawless drama is successful only when arbitrary additions are made which permit the transition from one scene to another, but these interpolations have no foundation in the text itself. Tradition also knows nothing of genuine dramatic poetry among the Hebrews, nor is the Semitic race more than slightly acquainted with this form of poetry. Driven by necessity, Kämpf and others even invent double roles, so that at times other personages appear along with Solomon and the Sulamitess; yet it cannot be said that any one of these hypotheses has produced a probable interpretation of the entire song.
DIFFICULTIES OF INTERPRETATION

Allegorical
All the hypotheses of the above-mentioned kind owe their origin to the prevalent dislike of allegory and symbolism. It is well known how extremely distasteful poetic allegory is to our age. Nevertheless allegory has been employed at times by the greatest poets of all ages. Its use was widespread in the Middle Ages, and it was always a preliminary condition in the interpretation of the Scriptures by the Fathers. There are many passages in the Old and New Testaments which it is simply impossible to understand without allegory. It is true that the allegorical method of Interpretation has been greatly misused. Yet the Canticle of Canticles can be proved to be a flawlessly consecutive poem by the employment of rules for poetical allegory and its interpretation which are fixed and according to the canons of art. The proof of the correctness of the interpretation lies in such a combination of all the parts of the song into a homogeneous whole. The dramatic form, as far as it can be plainly seen in the traditional text, is not destroyed by this method of elucidation; indeed a number (four to seven) of more or less independent scenes must be recognized. In separating these scenes from one another the Jewish or Syrian bridal customs may be taken into consideration, as has been done, especially by Budde and Siegfried, if the result is the simplifying of the explanation and not the distortion of the scenes, or other acts of caprice. An attempt has been made in the commentary (p. 388 sqq.) of the present writer to give in detail the determinative rules for a sound allegorical interpretation.
Historical
According to Wetzstein, whom Budde and others follow, the book should be regarded as a collection of short songs such as are still used by the bedouins of Syria in the "threshing-board". The features of similarity are the appearance of the bridal pair for seven days as king and queen the immoderate praise of the two, and the dance of the queen, during which she swings a sword to the accompaniment of a song by the chorus. Bruston and Rothstein have, however, expressed doubts as to this theory. In Solomon's song the bride, in reality, does not appear as a queen and does not swing a sword; the other traces of similarity are of so general a character that they probably belong to the wedding festivities of many nations. But the worst is that the essential songs avowedly do not stand in the proper order. Consequently it is presupposed that the order. Consequently it is presupposed that the order of succession is accidental. This opens wide once more the door to caprice. Thus, as what is said does not fit this theory it is claimed that a collector, or later redactor who misunderstood various matters, must have made small additions with which it is impossible now to do anything. Others, as Rothstein in Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible, presuppose that the collector, or rather the redactor, or even the author, had a dramatic end in view, as life and motion and action are, taken all together, unmistakable.
It is accepted (at least for the present form of the poem) that the book presents a pastoral poem that the book presents a pastoral poem in dramatis or, at least, melodramatic form. The poem, according to this theory, shows how a beautiful shepherdess keeps her betrothal vow to her lover of the same rank in fife notwithstanding the allurements and acts of violence of a king. But this shepherd has to be interpolated into the text and not much can be said for the imaginary faith kept with the distant lover, as the Sulamitess, in the middle section of the Song of Solomon, gives herself willingly to the king, and no reason is apparent in the text why her boundless praise should not be intended for the present king and not for an absent lover. Stickel overcomes the great difficulties which still remain in a very arbitrary manner. He allows a second pair of lovers to come suddenly forward, these know nothing of the chief personages and are employed by the poet merely as an interlude. Stickel gives this pair three short passages, namely: i, 7 sq.; i, 15-ii, 4; iv, 7-v, 1. Moreover in these hypotheses appears the difficulty which is ever connected with the historical interpretation, that is, the lowering of the song which is so highly prized by the Church. The historical interpretation transforms it into ordinary love-scenes, in various moments of which, moreover, a fiery, sensuous love breaks forth. For the same expressions which, when referred allegoricallly to Christ and the Church, announce the strength of the love of God, are under ordinary conditions the utterances of a repellent passion.
AGE AND AUTHOR OF THE CANTICLE

Tradition, in harmony with the superscription, attributes the song to Solomon. Even in modern times quite a number of exegetes have held this opinion: among Protestants, for example, Hengstenberg, Delitzsch, Zöckler, and Keil. De Wette says: "The entire series of pictures and relationships and the freshness of the life connect these songs with the age of Solomon." The song evidences the love of Solomon for nature (it contains twenty-one names of plants and fifteen of animals), for beauty and art, and for regal splendour; bound up with this latter is an ideal simplicity suitable to the type of character of the royal poet. There is also evident a strain of the most tender feeling and a love of peace which are well in keeping with the reputation of Solomon. The somewhat unusual language in connection with the skilful and brilliant style point to a well-practised writer. If some Aramaic or foreign expressions are to be found in the song, in relation to Solomon, such cannot cause surprise. It is remarkable that in Proverbs the fuller form of the relative is always used, while in Canticles the shorter form is employed, the one used earlier in the song of Debbora. But in the same way Jeremias used the ordinary form in his prophecies, while in the Lamentations he repeatedly employed the shorter. The point is raised that Tirzah (vi, 4 - Heb.) is mentioned along with Jerusalem as the capital of the Kingdom of the Ten Tribes. The comparison, though, is made only as to beauty, and Tirzah had, above all, a reputation for loveliness. Many other commentators, as Bottcher, Ewald, Hitzig, and Kämpf, put the composition of the book in the time directly after Solomon. They assert that the action of the poem takes place in the northern part of Palestine, that the author is especially well acquainted with this section of the country, and writes in the form of the language used there. It is further said that Tirzah could only be compared with Jerusalem at the time when if was the capital of the Kingdom of the Ten Tribes that is after the age of Solomon but before the time when Samaria was the capital of the Northern Kingdom. All these reasons however, have more subjective than objective value. No more convincing, finally, are the reasons that cause others to place the book in post-Exilic times; among such exegetes may be mentioned: Stade, Kautzsch, Cornill, Grätz, Budde, and Siegfried. They support their theory by reference to many peculiarities of language and believe they even find traces of Greek influence in the song; but for all this there is a lack of clear proof.
Condition of the Hebrew Text
Gratz, Bickell, Budde, and Cheyne believe that they have been able to prove the existence of various mistakes and changes in the text. The passages referred to are: vi, 12; vii, 1; iii, 6-11; for alterations of the text see chapters vi and vii.
 

sanctus

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You can't have it both ways. Either scripture is the true word of god, or it's not. There's no internal clue in the scriptures about what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken allegorically, those are decisions people make based on contemporary ethics and morality. We pick and choose among the many things the Bible tells us are correct behaviours, and turn the rest into allegories and metaphors. Or ignore them. There can be no clearer indication that ethics and morality don't come from religion, that's just a rationalization after the fact.

In other words, just in case I haven't been clear enough, I think you're just making it up.

Your comments, believe it or not, support the Catholic definition of Biblical exegesis and support for the magisterium of the Church. These are exactly why the Church's position is that the Bible is not to be open for self-interpretation, but instead should be interpreted in light of context, history and content, not literally. The church has spent 2,000 years carefully studying and comparing the Bible in order to arrive at its determinations on meanings of even the smallest passages. The idea that person A can pick it up, read through the 73 books and know exactly what its meaning and purposes are is, to say the least, self-centred nonsense.
 

marygaspe

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Let me explain about book Song of Salmon on my next reply.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

In a powerful and compelling article entitled, "Sola Scriptura and Private Judgement", author James Akin makes the following statement concerning his own conversion:
"I thus was forced to conclude that the principle of private judgement--an inherent and indispensable part of Protestantism--led inescapably to the formation of multiple competing Magisteriums, which defeat the purpose of having a Magisterium in the first place. Since "God is not a God of confusion, but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33), he cannot be the author of the doctrinal chaos in the Protestant world, and since this chaos is rooted in the very essence of Protestantism itself, due to the principle of private judgement, God cannot be the author of Protestantism."
 

marygaspe

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The discussion on this thread as you say has moved around quite a bit from the main topic.
But, I look at it from the standpoint of the leadings of the Holy Spirit who places thoughts and ideas in our minds.
Those thoughts and ideas are acted out by us for the sole purpose of discussion.
These discussions help many who are interested in all the different views and for some, it helps them decide which way to look at things.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

I think the fundamental problem we have here is one of perception.

When Protestants are asked to define the Word of God they will inevitably answer with "Scripture" or the Bible. While Scripture certainly is the Word of God, it is an incomplete answer. Catholic teaching tells us that the definition to "Word of God" is Jesus. "In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(I don't know the ch./verse, and Im too lazy to look it up).

Catholics believe that the Word of God is a living Word; the Word lives through the teachings of the Church He established. Those teachings exist in three parts: Sacred Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterial teaching. Father Corapi once said that the Word of God is like the Trinity in that one part can not exist independent of the other two. Wherever one part is, the other two parts are also present by the very nature of their being. Protestants don't understand that Catholics do not place Sacred Tradition ABOVE the Word of God...Sacred Tradition is an integral part of the Word of God. Scripture is also an integral part of the same Word, but only one part.

What perplexes me is whether or not this gap can ever be bridged...
 

sanctus

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Lack of faith in God!

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

The phrase "ask Jesus into your heart" is not found in the Bible, but originates in a later, Protestant evangelism campaign. It is not definitive of what a Christian is either according to the Bible or according to Church history. A person is a Christian if he is baptized and professes the Christian faith. All Christians should take their faith seriously and devoutly cultivate his relationship with God and with Jesus, but that is not presented to us in either the Bible or the history of the Church as one of the requirements for being Christian. The New Testament regularly refers to people as Christians even though their walk with the Lord may be very shaky. Once they have been baptized, the New Testament does not deny them the title "Christian." Only by a total repudiation of the Christian faith can one lose this title.
 

sanctus

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I think the fundamental problem we have here is one of perception.

When Protestants are asked to define the Word of God they will inevitably answer with "Scripture" or the Bible. While Scripture certainly is the Word of God, it is an incomplete answer. Catholic teaching tells us that the definition to "Word of God" is Jesus. "In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(I don't know the ch./verse, and Im too lazy to look it up).

Catholics believe that the Word of God is a living Word; the Word lives through the teachings of the Church He established. Those teachings exist in three parts: Sacred Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterial teaching. Father Corapi once said that the Word of God is like the Trinity in that one part can not exist independent of the other two. Wherever one part is, the other two parts are also present by the very nature of their being. Protestants don't understand that Catholics do not place Sacred Tradition ABOVE the Word of God...Sacred Tradition is an integral part of the Word of God. Scripture is also an integral part of the same Word, but only one part.

What perplexes me is whether or not this gap can ever be bridged...

The following scripture verses teach that the authority of the Catholic Church comes directly from Jesus Christ and that the Church – not the Bible – is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 20:21-23
"Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3:15
“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” __________________
 

mapleleafgirl

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To the serious student of the word, all theses things are not silly: silly only to those who take Gods mysteries not serious.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

yeah, okay, whatever. im gonna ask you a question you have been asked but never answered. you say the holy spirit tells you whats in the bible. well, there are like a bizillion different protestant churches and they all say the holy spirit teaches them about the bible, but they all have different takes on everything. how can you all be right if you all disagree? dude, somebodys gotta be wrong if there is no agreement!
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
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yeah, okay, whatever. im gonna ask you a question you have been asked but never answered. you say the holy spirit tells you whats in the bible. well, there are like a bizillion different protestant churches and they all say the holy spirit teaches them about the bible, but they all have different takes on everything. how can you all be right if you all disagree? dude, somebodys gotta be wrong if there is no agreement!

Now THAT, Maple, is the question of all questions! Can't wait to read his response!
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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In a powerful and compelling article entitled, "Sola Scriptura and Private Judgement", author James Akin makes the following statement concerning his own conversion:
"I thus was forced to conclude that the principle of private judgement--an inherent and indispensable part of Protestantism--led inescapably to the formation of multiple competing Magisteriums, which defeat the purpose of having a Magisterium in the first place. Since "God is not a God of confusion, but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33), he cannot be the author of the doctrinal chaos in the Protestant world, and since this chaos is rooted in the very essence of Protestantism itself, due to the principle of private judgement, God cannot be the author of Protestantism."

Your conclusion is based on the limited knowledge of the word, and therefore, forgivable.
The more knowledge God gives us, the more is expected of us. The less knowledge of God we have, it is forgivable.

The reason I quote scripture is because that is the letter from God to us. Apart from that, who would know who God is?
I know by the word (Letter) who and what God is. How He relates to us, and why He even cares for us.
In word (Letter) I find all that is needed for me to find refuge from this world’s trials and tribulations.
I know allot about the bible because I made it a point to learn who my creator is, why He made me on this earth, and what His objective in doing so was, coupled with the experiences of life.

I have absolutely nothing against the Catholic Church or any other religious belief except for this one thing: That if that individual, by reason of the belief structure he or she is in, does not demonstrate the love of God, then that individual’s religion is false.

What is the love of God? Forgiveness!
Only two answers that transcends all languages, religious beliefs, races, countries, and here they are:
As written by mankind and inspired by the Holy Spirit:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. .

If you look at the first five commandments of the Ten Commandments, you will find the. you will find the first one.
If you look at the last five commandments of the Ten Commandments, you will find the second one.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Why is it worded that way? Prior to Jesus, the Ten Commandments was what exacted death in us. Death of: our spirits, and eternal separation from the living God.

I mean who,..... who could meet such a standard and be able to save oneself?
For it also says: Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Looking at it that way, then it was impossible for any human being to have hope of ever getting salvation.

Why then God, (the popular question is) did you make us; just to bring us out here to be destroyed? This translates mankind’s anger towards God because of it.

i.e. Exo 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?

After all that God had done, how ungrateful they were.

But that attitude is forgiven us, for if only we knew (Had proper knowledge of) we would love God rather than to be angry with Him.

After Jesus paid the price for the penalty of death for us, we are therefore made free, to still being able to experience the good and evil of this world without fear of being eternal dead from the creator.

Having said all that, perhaps some may be able to see passed all the little trivial issues that blind us from the truth.

I am a friend to all of you. I hold no preferences to what religion you belong to, or what belief you practice.
I love you regardless because that is what my instructions are as noted in the above two verses, the two commandments.

If I don’t exercise that which I am instructed to comply with, then My religion is a false one.
Now, please note the difference between, having to, and wanting to.

I don’t have to comply with any commandments, but I want to comply with the commandments as given by Jesus.
My desire is to Him, and not to myself.

He is the Captain of my soul. Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

A piece of gold in its raw state is not pure, therefore it must be tried in the furnace to extra all the impurities, refining it into pure gold.

This furnace is life. By it are we tried and tested and refined.
If our works are made of raw gold, it will be refined, and be rewarded.
If our works are made of wood and stubble, it will be burned up and we shall suffer loss.

Read the bible, and let the Holy Spirit speak to you through your spirit. Open up your heart to Him and He will find a place in your heart. He will transform your thinking as the word repentance means.
For today is the day of salvation, believe in the Lord Jesus with your heart and trust and rely on Him for all your needs.

Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Now, the Holy Spirit is speaking to you by His words! Can you hear Him?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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yeah, okay, whatever. im gonna ask you a question you have been asked but never answered. you say the holy spirit tells you whats in the bible. well, there are like a bizillion different protestant churches and they all say the holy spirit teaches them about the bible, but they all have different takes on everything. how can you all be right if you all disagree? dude, somebodys gotta be wrong if there is no agreement!

I know when God speaks to me. If I have a question, He knows it before I even ask. He speaks to me by His word, by thoughts He implants in my mind, by other people and by life's experiences.

His voice to me is not an audible sound, but the ability to discern through all those things the answers to my questions.

Everyone is the owner of their own temple. A priest to their own temple by which can offer spiritual sacrifices to God.
Sacrifices are praises and adulations, loving Him and thy neighbor.

He speaks to us in various manners and ways, not the same to everybody, for everybody lives not in the same conditions in life. So therefore you are going to get a variety of attitudes.
But the bottom line to all of those various attitudes, is whether they have learned to love or not?
If we have not learned love through suffering, what then is the point of suffering? For nothing?
Love is born through suffering.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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The phrase "ask Jesus into your heart" is not found in the Bible, but originates in a later, Protestant evangelism campaign. It is not definitive of what a Christian is either according to the Bible or according to Church history. A person is a Christian if he is baptized and professes the Christian faith. All Christians should take their faith seriously and devoutly cultivate his relationship with God and with Jesus, but that is not presented to us in either the Bible or the history of the Church as one of the requirements for being Christian. The New Testament regularly refers to people as Christians even though their walk with the Lord may be very shaky. Once they have been baptized, the New Testament does not deny them the title "Christian." Only by a total repudiation of the Christian faith can one lose this title.

A person is a Christian when:Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

How does that happen, baptized with the Holy Spirit? Is it a physical exercise? How about "with fire"? Does it mean we have to be burned?

Can you as a priest baptize me with fire? I know you can with water! But with fire you can not, for that is God's Spirit doing it.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
So, you can dunk me in the water a thousand times, and still not be baptized with fire.

For the baptism is of the heart of your spirit, not your physical body.
The baptizing of the body is an outwardly show of the inwardly baptism with fire.
Now, that is the real baptism.
But, one may ask, how do you know when you are inwardly baptized?
First you must know why God baptizes with His Spirit.
That answer is found in His word.
Read it and find out, and when you do, you are ready to make a public profession of faith to that effect.
You maybe 10 years old, 44,66,or even 99 years old and still be able to make that profession of faith and get baptized.
God is in the business of one on one. He and you, He and I, but all together, we are one in Him.
We are bound to each other in brotherly love, and that is unconditionally.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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A
Can you as a priest baptize me with fire? I know you can with water! But with fire you can not, for that is God's Spirit doing it.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized y
Peace>>>AJ:love9:


No, but the Bishop can Confirm you, which is the second stage, in a sense, of Baptism. And during this Rite calls upon the Holy Spirit to come upon the person.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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I to get a variety of attitudes.
But the bottom line to all of those various attitudes, is whether they have learned to love or not?
If we have not learned love through suffering, what then is the point of suffering? For nothing?
Love is born through suffering.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:


Too obvious, too "touchy-feely". If you are in Christ, some things must be constant. The Eucharist for example. Read your Bible. Jesus clearly stated three facts about the Eucharist;

1-It is, in a mystical sense, His actual Body and Blood.

2-It is to be administered by the priests who alone can, through the Holy Spirit, change the bread and wine into The Precious Blood and the Sacred Body.

3-And unless you partake of the Eucharist on a regular basis, you will not be in Christ.

So, if you belong to a faith group that denies these, they are wrong, even if they are all full of love for everybody and every rock on the planet..
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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yeah, okay, whatever. im gonna ask you a question you have been asked but never answered. you say the holy spirit tells you whats in the bible. well, there are like a bizillion different protestant churches and they all say the holy spirit teaches them about the bible, but they all have different takes on everything. how can you all be right if you all disagree? dude, somebodys gotta be wrong if there is no agreement!

It's an answer that they tend to be evasive about, becuase the cold hard truth is too difficult for them to accept.

In reality, if we believe in God, and accept that Christ is the way, as they say, then we must adhere ourselves to all the rules, as it were. We must not deviate one iota from the traditons we have been instructed in. Either Christ, for example, wants something or He dosen't. There is little room for grey areas or opinion in such matters.
 

L Gilbert

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What a "sad sad" thing to say, that life is pointless without god, that's like saying life is pointless
without the easter bunny, or santa clause, if we get too attached to "fantasies" it starts to look kind
of "funneeeeee".!!!!
I can think of so so many wonderful things to live for, but can't think of anything that makes life
"pointless", "just to be alive" is wonderful.
My point exactly. I think people that are always searching for something or other are missing part(s) of their lives. Just learn to live life and accept whatever happens. Then the only parts of your life that you miss are the dreamless sleeps. :D