How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Christ is that perfect one born of God. (Son of God)

Which means that in Him, by living and dieing in Him, we are made perfect, Free from sin.

I leave you with this verse:

Peace>>>AJ


Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.



If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Why is that such a common phrase these days? Why not "care"? What is so wrong with caring?

don't get me wrong. I care about a lot of things, its just that what a handful of anonymous screen names on an internet BBS make of me personally isn't one of them.
 

L Gilbert

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We can believe what Jesus said because He gave evidence that validates His claim. Jesus not only claimed to be the only way to God, but He also claimed to be God (John 5:18; 10:30-33). He then rose from the dead, proving that what He said was true. There is more evidence for Christ's resurrection than any event in ancient history. Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed and all of the other religious leaders of the past are still in their tombs. But not Jesus. Who would you believe?
"More evidence for Yeshua's resurrection than any event in ancient history"? That's hardly likely. I've read an awful lot of material and cannot find one piece of conclusive evidence outside of the book of hearsay called the bible (That particular tomb has enough ambiguities and hogwash in it to make it unreliable in any claim it makes) that even Yeshua existed, let alone was resurrected, or was a god. Not one scrap of papyrus, goatskin, etc. that he purportedly wrote upon, not a shoe, a hairbrush, a tooth, etc. exists, yet we keep finding all manners of tems from bones to personal items that individuals had tens of thousands of years ago. I find it really compelling evidence that there is as conspicuous a lack of evidence of existence of one who was allegedly followed about and observed doing miraculous things and the like. Did he die and then everyone scurried about hiding and destroying everything to do with his existence?
 

L Gilbert

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Ahhh, you're right! I believe faithfully in evolution, but the difference bwteen you and me is I believe the Genesis tale fits very well into an evolutionary construct. In other words, I believe it is important not how it was done, but that we know who did it-in other words that it was God behind the process. The mechanics of HOW are not as important to me personally as long as I believe who was responsible in the first place.
Yeah, F. Henry says stuff like that, too. I have a lot of curiosity in the whys and hows, though, and have noticed I'm not alone.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Yeah, F. Henry says stuff like that, too. I have a lot of curiosity in the whys and hows, though, and have noticed I'm not alone.

Why, because it has been established. Science is not in contradiction, most times, with the faith or the Church. How, because it is not logical to take everything in the Scriptures literally, or on our own terms as humans. In other words, we know that time to God is not the same as time to us. We limit the world with out belief systems, when in fact God is not limited to our constructs. 7 literal days is impossible, and is not what is to be understood from the Creation stories in the Bible. Better to assume 7 periods of development, if you will, which may have each taken thousands of years. Read the account of creation in the book of Genesis and see if you can se, as I do, how the theory of evolution flows within its description of creation.
 

Curiosity

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Jul 30, 2005
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Good morning Sanctus

Blessed Christmas and holiday season to you.... I knew I could find you on this topic .... if not in the "now" certainly in the "future".

(excuse the interruption lol)
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
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"More evidence for Yeshua's resurrection than any event in ancient history"? That's hardly likely. I've read an awful lot of material and cannot find one piece of conclusive evidence outside of the book of hearsay called the bible (That particular tomb has enough ambiguities and hogwash in it to make it unreliable in any claim it makes) that even Yeshua existed, let alone was resurrected, or was a god. existence?

Well as most people who ask this question are in some way looking for physcial proof......looking for the diffinitive proof that Jesus was here and He was the Son of God.

Well lets just look at the name of Jesus for a moment.......this name today in the year 2006 still cuts right through people some 2000 years after the fact.

Look at how His name offends people.....If Jesus was not who He said He was and He was just a prophet.....why would His name offend?

Then we have thousands upon thousands of people who gave there life in documented accounts preaching this man Christ.....writtin accounts by other people not linked to the Bible.

But the real proof is seen in mans heart.....for that is where Jesus is today.
The changing power of mans heart is the only proof that one should seek.

For this is why Jesus came......to deal with mans heart and to put man in right standing with God.

DNA is used today to link killers to there crime......it is unmistakable when ones DNA is found at the crime scene......there is the proof that one commited the crime.....

Well the same holds true here.....Those that have the DNA of Christ are unmistakeable.......the power and blessings of God are flowing all around them.

Anytime we look for phycial proof of spiritual things we hinder ourselves.
For faith and belief are not seen with the eyes but rather seen with the heart.

Look inside not outside.......for Jesus said.......If you seek me you will find me.......If one of your kids went missing.....Im sure that you would look for them 24/7 and would not stop looking until you have found them.

Well this is what Jesus is refering to when He says Seek Me!
Seek Him with an open heart......and He said you WILL find Him.

And when you do find Him you wont see Him with your eyes but you will see Him with your heart.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Good morning Sanctus

Blessed Christmas and holiday season to you.... I knew I could find you on this topic .... if not in the "now" certainly in the "future".

(excuse the interruption lol)

And may you also have a blessed and peaceful Christmas season. I hope all your days now, and in the future, are filled with peace and joy.

Chris
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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"More evidence for Yeshua's resurrection than any event in ancient history"? That's hardly likely. I've read an awful lot of material and cannot find one piece of conclusive evidence outside of the book of hearsay called the bible (That particular tomb has enough ambiguities and hogwash in it to make it unreliable in any claim it makes) to do with his existence?


I kind of look at things this way. Jesus had 12 disciples that He was with, and taught for 3 1/2 years in travelling all over Judea and Samaria. 11 of these 12, excluding John (who was exiled on the island of Patmos after they tried killing him by boiling him in oil), and Stephen were all killed for what they believed.

These disciples were witness to miracles, and healings and things we could only dream of seeing and were all very much willing to die for what they believed.

Some of these men died the most horrific of deaths and suffered some horrendous treatment and punishment. The harrowing tales of Paul, who was also killed (he was lucky, as a Roman citizen he was merely beheaded), and considering as many times as he was jailed, abandoned and shipwrecked leave me absolutely shaking my head. I whine at a hang nail! Anyway, it is absoulutely impossible for me to believe any sane and rational person would willingly die, let alone allow themselves to be tortured over a lie.

Imagine yourself for example. Would you willingly die for something you knew was a lie that absolutely no one was buying? Would you put yourself through the struggles, and perils that Paul put himself through just to preach a simple message that he was compelled to preach? It just doesn't seem logical to me that anyone would knowingly do these things for a lie.

This is always a great tact to try on any unbeliever. Pure common sense, and the human will to survive, indicate that any answer other than no would be a lie.

Now on top of that we have new Christians who were so enamoured with the Gospel they were given, and full of the Holy Spirit they were blessed with that they willingly refused to bow a knee to Ceasar. These new Christians were lambs to the slaughter. Passively accepting fates I shudder to think about.

Some were fed to the lions or savagely attacked in arena games, others were wrapped in gauze to poles, dipped in tar, and burned alive as human torches...and all the while content in the decision and choices they made that their lives were nothing without Jesus Christ.

It as been said that the spread of Christianity is attributed to the blood shed by Christians. With every Christian that was murdered, the spilled blood was the seed that grew more and more.

There is no other religion on earth, not one, that claims obedience to the Will of God the way Christianity does. There is no other religion on the face of the earth that loudly proclaims that man has absolutely nothing to do with his own salvation, and that it is securely in the Hands of Almighty God, whether it be in this life....or the next.
 

mapleleafgirl

Electoral Member
Dec 13, 2006
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hey sanctus. would you mind if i ask you a personal question? hope not, but i think you already said this before..are you roman catholic? and if you are, what do you think of non-catholic churches-i mean, my friend is rc and she thinks that the rc church is the only "true" christian church and the rest are cults,even the baptists! what do you think-is the rc church the "true" church, and if so.why would you think so?hope youre not mad at my asking these questions?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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from a book I'm reading. its stuff like this that convinces me of the validity of the Christian gestalt.

That the basic motif of the myth of the Fall, expressed in the idea of the jealous God and the human rebellion against the divine, is not the fruit of primitive fantasy but a revelation of a tragic reality of life, is attested by every page of human history. Every concievable social peace which men have attained and toward which they still strive, is always something of a Pax Romana. Necessary social order can actually be established; but it is never pure peace, pure justice, and pure order. The roots of anarchy are bound to be in it because it is always a peace which pretends to be more than it is. It is a peace imposed by some human instrument of order; and in that human instrument is an imperial ambition, hiding its will to power under the veil of its will to peace. The peace of the world, the more inclusive harmonies of human existence, are maintained by Roman arms, or by such organizations as the League of Nations and its successor, the United Nations, (which means the dominant powers), or by the commercial and industrial oligarchy which ruled the nations in the past decades, or by a communist oligarchy of the future (which may make more absolute and therefore more demonic pretensions). The more orderly and more highly integrated civilizations conquer the more anarchic social units. All this is done in the interest of order and harmony and is therefore supposedly virtuous. But it is not as virtuous as it pretends to be; and also less virtuous than it might be if it made fewer pretensions. Yet the pretensions spring inevitably out of the human situation.
Reinhold Niebuhr - 1935
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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Well as most people who ask this question are in some way looking for physcial proof......looking for the diffinitive proof that Jesus was here and He was the Son of God.

Well lets just look at the name of Jesus for a moment.......this name today in the year 2006 still cuts right through people some 2000 years after the fact.

Look at how His name offends people.....If Jesus was not who He said He was and He was just a prophet.....why would His name offend?

Then we have thousands upon thousands of people who gave there life in documented accounts preaching this man Christ.....writtin accounts by other people not linked to the Bible.

But the real proof is seen in mans heart.....for that is where Jesus is today.
The changing power of mans heart is the only proof that one should seek.

For this is why Jesus came......to deal with mans heart and to put man in right standing with God.
There's no gods in me, but I'm still a pretty good guy. Mahatma Ghandi had some other god in him (in his view), yet he was a pretty good dood, Isaac Asimov was an atheist but he was a pretty good dood, etc. Like christians have the exclusivity on goodness?

DNA is used today to link killers to there crime......it is unmistakable when ones DNA is found at the crime scene......there is the proof that one commited the crime.....

Well the same holds true here.....Those that have the DNA of Christ are unmistakeable.......the power and blessings of God are flowing all around them............
Who are these people that have Yeshua's DNA and how do they know it's his DNA in the first place? Paleontolists or archeologists blundered on a cave that had a neon sign flashing and saying "christ's DNA buried here" with an arrow pointing to it accompanied by a list of authoritative and validating signatures? Links please. Without substantiating this claim, your words are just so much fiction.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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hey, sounds interesting. what is the name of the book so i can look it up please.?

The book is "An Interpretation of Christian Ethics" by Reinhold Niebuhr. Its not easy getting ahold of a copy but it is available online here. I find it very thought provoking.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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Why, because it has been established. Science is not in contradiction, most times, with the faith or the Church. How, because it is not logical to take everything in the Scriptures literally, or on our own terms as humans. In other words, we know that time to God is not the same as time to us. We limit the world with out belief systems, when in fact God is not limited to our constructs. 7 literal days is impossible, and is not what is to be understood from the Creation stories in the Bible. Better to assume 7 periods of development, if you will, which may have each taken thousands of years. Read the account of creation in the book of Genesis and see if you can se, as I do, how the theory of evolution flows within its description of creation.
There and I thought you folks all thought your god was imnipotent and could do anything.
Um, I tried Genesis one time and couldn't get past any more than a few "begats". At any rate, without a legend that relates events to terms that humans use (IE 1 Yahweh day = x human days and 1 Yahweh mile = y human miles ......) the stuff written into the bible is not only hearsay (so-and-so said that whatsisname did this, that, and the other thing), but it is open to anyone's interpretation.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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I kind of look at things this way. Jesus had 12 disciples that He was with, and taught for 3 1/2 years in travelling all over Judea and Samaria. 11 of these 12, excluding John (who was exiled on the island of Patmos after they tried killing him by boiling him in oil), and Stephen were all killed for what they believed.

These disciples were witness to miracles, and healings and things we could only dream of seeing and were all very much willing to die for what they believed.
As are a lot of people today, including people that wish the entire faith of christianity begone. A few folks have died while actively supporting their belief that your god talked them into killing others.

Some of these men died the most horrific of deaths and suffered some horrendous treatment and punishment. The harrowing tales of Paul, who was also killed (he was lucky, as a Roman citizen he was merely beheaded), and considering as many times as he was jailed, abandoned and shipwrecked leave me absolutely shaking my head. I whine at a hang nail! Anyway, it is absoulutely impossible for me to believe any sane and rational person would willingly die, let alone allow themselves to be tortured over a lie.
Me too, unless it was well-disguised fabrication. Look at how many people consider the USA to be the birthplace of demons. Yet, I have met many Americans who are not very different than me. I don't consider each and every fundamentalist Muslim to be some crazed wacko with a bomb taped to his/her body either.

Imagine yourself for example. Would you willingly die for something you knew was a lie that absolutely no one was buying? Would you put yourself through the struggles, and perils that Paul put himself through just to preach a simple message that he was compelled to preach? It just doesn't seem logical to me that anyone would knowingly do these things for a lie.
Nope and neither do I but then you just qualified your original comment with "knowingly". Who's to say that David Copperfield, or Lance Burton, or ...... don't perform miracles? They boggle the hell outta me but somehow I know they aren't really performing miracles. Is it perhaps because I prefer to see some substantiating evidence before I say they are miracle workers. Does everyone want to see substantiating evidence? I don't think so.

This is always a great tact to try on any unbeliever. Pure common sense, and the human will to survive, indicate that any answer other than no would be a lie.
As I told Ottawa Bill one time, common sense is what told us the Earth was flat and Sol revolved around it. Science is the critter that explained the facts.

Now on top of that we have new Christians who were so enamoured with the Gospel they were given, and full of the Holy Spirit they were blessed with that they willingly refused to bow a knee to Ceasar. These new Christians were lambs to the slaughter. Passively accepting fates I shudder to think about.
Empires are empires, corporations are corporations, etc. and I can't think of any that are tolerant of entities that may threaten their existences.

Some were fed to the lions or savagely attacked in arena games, others were wrapped in gauze to poles, dipped in tar, and burned alive as human torches...and all the while content in the decision and choices they made that their lives were nothing without Jesus Christ.

It as been said that the spread of Christianity is attributed to the blood shed by Christians. With every Christian that was murdered, the spilled blood was the seed that grew more and more.

There is no other religion on earth, not one, that claims obedience to the Will of God the way Christianity does. There is no other religion on the face of the earth that loudly proclaims that man has absolutely nothing to do with his own salvation, and that it is securely in the Hands of Almighty God, whether it be in this life....or the next.
There's no other religion on Earth that claims obedience to the will of Allah than Islam, either. I've found each faith or set of beliefs to be quite unique in retrospection: some don't proselytize, some follow many gods, some don't even have gods as such, but just a path or a way, etc.