Why I'm backing Israel

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Everytime we start a thread about the Arab-Israeli conflict, it always ends up in some sort of turmoil. And this, being on a forum, on the other side of the world. And yet most of us cannot find common ground.

And imagine most of us demanding the Arabs and Jews should get their **** together and end this. Amazing.

P.S. Logic, grow the phuck up.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Lorna Fitzsimons, the author of the letter on page 1, is the CEO of BICOM:

http://www.bicom.org.uk/latest_from_bicom/s/2066/former-mp-lorna-fitzsimons-appointed-new-bicom-ceo/

BICOM is a pro-Israeli lobby group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BICOM

She's hardly an objective source when it comes to Israel since she's paid to represent Israel's interests.

The first line in her letter where she declares herself to be a paid pro-Israel lobbyist, should have been a big clue about her objectivity. After that any person capable of critical thought should have been wondering, "What is this person trying to sell me?"

Some people like Juan were able to see right through it. For the other people here who fell for this Israeli lobbyist's propaganda hook, line and sinker, I suggest rereading her letter and watch for the following propaganda techniques:

Fear - When a propagandist warns members of [his/her] audience that disaster will result if it does not follow a particular course of action, [he/she] is using the fear appeal.

Euphemisms - Choosing words or using selective truths to make something not sound as bad as it is.

Glittering Generalities - Words that have different positive meaning for individual subjects, but are linked to highly valued concepts. When these words are used, they demand approval without thinking, simply because such an important concept is involved. For example, when a person is asked to do something in 'defense of democracy' they are more likely to agree.

Sanitizing the Facts - leaving out negative, unpleasant, distressing or offensive details in order to make something appear more palatable and acceptable.

Selective Omission - Deceptively omitting relevant and truthful information that works against a thesis.
 

Sassylassie

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Jan 31, 2006
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Earth you just describe the UN's stance on Israel, it condems Israel for war crimes but they never mention Palestine's war crimes like strapping bombs on children and old ladies. Lobbing missles at Isreal, and hiding behind women to escape. Both sides need to be bitched slapped but no one side is more mea culpa than the other they are both to blame and until both stop shooting peace will never be had for either. You accuse some of us of having blinders on but you only wail and moan about the suffering of Palestine and your bias shines like a beacon in the night.
 

I think not

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earth_as_one

There are no objective sources regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict. Which is the reason why everyone should read both sides of the issue.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
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Of course objective sources exist regarding this conflict. They just aren't on Israel's payroll or politicians.

Amnesty International 2006 Report for events during 2005
Israel withdrew its settlers and troops from the Gaza Strip and dismantled four small settlements in the northern West Bank. However, it continued to build and expand illegal settlements and related infrastructure, including a 600km fence/wall, on Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank. Military blockades and restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians within the Occupied Territories continued to cause high unemployment and poverty among the Palestinian population. There was much lessviolence between Israelis and Palestinians, although attacks by both sides continued. Some 190 Palestinians, including around 50 children, were killed by Israeli forces, and 50 Israelis, including six children, were killed by Palestinian armed groups. Israeli forces carried out unlawful attacks and routinely used excessive force against peaceful demonstrators protesting against the destruction of Palestinian agricultural land and the Israeli army’s construction of the fence/wall. Israeli settlers frequently attacked Palestinian farmers, destroying orchards and preventing cultivation of their land. Israeli soldiers and settlers responsible for unlawful killings and other abuses against Palestinians and their property generally had impunity. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces throughout the Occupied Territories on suspicion of security offences. Israeli conscientious objectors continued to be imprisoned for refusing to serve in the army...

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/isr-summary-eng

If you read the whole report, both side's atrocities are detailed.

Another objective source is Human Rights Watch:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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I'm not saying, "Don't listen to propaganda". All sides use propaganda in this conflict. If its good propaganda, its worth considering. Good propaganda contains both truths and manipulations. The truths are just selective in support of the manipulations. But if you listen to all sides propaganda carefully as well as objective sources, then the truths reveal manipulations.
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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An alternative is the non sectarian one state solution:

http://newleftreview.org/?page=article&view=2607

As I have mentioned earlier, both sides in this conflict share one thing in common: both share in the blame for the troubles that we see today. No one side has a monopoly in this regard. Therefore, compromise utilizing rational democratic processes such as those we utilize in North America is the best alternative.
 

Finder

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Dec 18, 2005
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The left and the Islamists portray me as a Zionist neocon, but it takes two sides to make a peace deal

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Lorna Fitzsimons[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Friday November 24, 2006[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]The Guardian[/FONT]



Some said I should have my head examined after I agreed to become the chief executive of a pro-Israel advocacy group, the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre. But people said the same when I joined Labour in the mid-80s.

There is never a wrong time to do the right thing and if, like me, you are convinced of Israel's cause, then why not support Israel and why not now? I have always been a practical idealist, a non-Jew who has always believed in a two-state solution. But I have never been more concerned about the false reality many people are constructing around Israel and the Middle East, here and abroad. Our polling shows that opinion formers know that Israel is a fully functioning democracy, but care more about what Israel does than what Israel is.

Since its birth 58 years ago, Israel has always been prepared to compromise for peace. From Begin's agreement with Sadat in 1979 to the Arafat-Barak talks at Camp David in 2000, Israeli leaders have been prepared to challenge their own people in pursuit of peace. Last summer Israel withdrew from Gaza, angry settlers and all. Yet the terror from the Gaza Strip has continued - more than 1,000 rockets have been fired into southern Israel in the past year. Since 2000, nine fatalities have been caused by Qassam missiles.

Some media have reported the panic these missiles have caused but they downplay the impact because of the small scale of fatalities compared with those on the Palestinian side. My husband, a British soldier, is currently serving a tour of duty in Iraq. His unit has come under mortar fire nearly every night for the past six months. Not many service personnel have been killed by these missiles but every soldier fears that the next one might have his or her name on it. Do you think that a child, a parent or a grandmother in one of the towns bordering Gaza thinks there have been "only" nine fatalities? Can you imagine what that does to a civilian population?

We need to think carefully about the consequences of questioning the defensive reactions of a nation-state that is constantly bombarded by an enemy calling for its destruction, especially after it has withdrawn from Lebanon and Gaza. Would we as British citizens accept a single rocket on a British town, let alone hundreds?

The commentators' objection is that the response is "disproportionate". But how does a nation-state defend itself against a terrorist organisation or organisations that are part of, and deliberately hide behind, ordinary citizens? Of course the Israeli military and all military forces must act ethically. But if the number of civilian casualties continues to be the main issue, there is no incentive for the terrorists to stop using the civilian population as a shield.

We live in dangerous times when, in parts of the left especially, you can't be a friend to Islam or to Muslims unless you are anti-Israel. That is exactly what al-Qaida wants us to think. Events in Rochdale at the last election represent a microcosm of what we are sleepwalking into globally. The Islamists and the left argued that, because I supported Israel and its right to exist, all my work for my Muslim constituents was a lie. They suggested I was an opportunistic, neocon Zionist, aiming to dupe them.

Israel's willingness to compromise for peace has never been enough, because Israel alone cannot gain peace. The Palestinians and others in the region also have to want peace. Israel needs a serious interlocutor so that peace can stand a chance. So my question to the left is this: why not concentrate your attention there, rather than on the one player in the region who has always been serious about peace?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1955804,00.html


Well I'm on the left but I support Israel now, because of the actions of Palistine/Hamas and Hezbollah.
 

jimmoyer

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Apr 3, 2005
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Everytime we start a thread about the Arab-Israeli conflict, it always ends up in some sort of turmoil. And this, being on a forum, on the other side of the world. And yet most of us cannot find common ground.

And imagine most of us demanding the Arabs and Jews should get their **** together and end this. Amazing.

--------------------------------------------ITN--------------------------------------------------------

Worth repeating this encore post.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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The most successful nations in our world today are those who cohabit with peace and democracy in their hearts.

Until mankind stops using religion as a reason to kill - we will all be at the barbarian stage of evolution - mocking religion as the reason for murdering others.
 

jimmoyer

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One wonders why the oil rich Arab brothers have not come to help their Palestininan brothers'.

They throw the Palestinian to the mercy of a zionist Jew to give them jobs?

With friends like that, who needs enemies ?

One wonders why Jordan for 18 years did not give the West Bank they controlled independent
nation sovereignty ???
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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Comparing Israelis to Nazi's again I see... and implying that ITN would have been one of the Nazi supporters?



Israel is mainly the only one in the world who could be compare to nazi, even albert einstein and Hanna arendt ( 2 greath jews who survived the holocost)said the same about israel.


Here is the proof.

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dissent/Einstein_NYTimes_Israel.html
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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Earth you just describe the UN's stance on Israel, it condems Israel for war crimes but they never mention Palestine's war crimes like strapping bombs on children and old ladies. Lobbing missles at Isreal, and hiding behind women to escape. Both sides need to be bitched slapped but no one side is more mea culpa than the other they are both to blame and until both stop shooting peace will never be had for either. You accuse some of us of having blinders on but you only wail and moan about the suffering of Palestine and your bias shines like a beacon in the night.



Who the UN will condemne in this case??? Does the UN condemne criminal organisation like Hells angels??


Withough eeven knowing it, you put the israeli governement at the same level with resistance groups/terrorists, thankx for proving my point.
 

Logic 7

Council Member
Jul 17, 2006
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Logic you view the Palestinian versus Israels crisis with bias and hatred, if anyone is a Nazi it is you Logic. The hatred and propaganda you direct at Israel is frightening similar to the bile-rage filled propaganda that is thought to Palestinian children in Hate School 101.



Bias and hatred??


Quite funny coming from you.