Quebec as a Nation

Do you recognized Québec as being a nation ?


  • Total voters
    44

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
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Montreal
Hey!

I wasn't in any way calling Quebec Nationalists stupid.

I was calling a Federal politician that recognizes an supposedly equal province as a nation stupid.

Thank you for the clarification Colpy!

It's amazing how a few words can send a shockwave through the country...

Was just watching the news... Switching between SRC (french CBC) and CBC... Interesting to see reactions in Quebec and outside Quebec... It seems some people in New-Brunswick are wondering why not call Acadians a nation... I say why not?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
From the Oxford dictionary:
nation

noun a large body of people united by common descent, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.

Seriously, the word defines Quebec. Argue that it doesn't.

I can't, because it does, that's the point. That isn't the only definition of nation in the Oxford dictionary, nor is it the most commonly understood meaning of the word. Look up state, you'll find it uses the word as a synonym for nation. As I posted previously, no unambiguous definition of nation is possible. Harper's motion, as clearly indicated by his speech around it, uses it as a cultural, linguistic, and sociological term for the Québécois, which is what that definition points to as well, but I'd bet heavily that most people hearing the word nation think of an independent sovereign country. It's too slippery a word to use so casually. And how long do you think it'll be after that motion passes before some Bloc Head claims that Parliament declared Quebec to be a nation, conveniently dropping off the last four words of it and substituting the word Quebec for the word Québécois? They've been that dishonest before. This issue has dominated the national political agenda my whole adult life, I even remember engaging in a debate about it in high school in 1966, and I'm fed up with it.

I believe no final resolution is possible until Quebec has all the advantages of being a Canadian province and all the advantages of being a sovereign state, with Canada paying for both. I thought briefly that we had a resolution with the Victoria Charter in 1971, until the same Quebec government that had negotiated it and agreed to it reneged on it to appease the militant nationalists at home. That government was afraid of its own people, perhaps with good reason, it was hopelessly incompetent. I thought maybe the Meech Lake Accord was it, until I actually read the document and saw what a horrible balkanization of the federation it'd produce. I thought maybe the patriation of the constitution might do it, until Quebec refused to get on board because it didn't get everything it wanted. Neither did anyone else, but like a petulant child Quebec stood aside feeling sorry for itself. Lucien Bouchard later spun those into a terribly twisted tale of betrayal and backstabbing, which Trudeau pretty thoroughly skewered, but the mythology of betrayal is still promoted by Quebec politicians as if it were true.


I did some research on it this morning to verify my memory, and it's clear that Quebec has had special status since long before Canada became Canada. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 ceded New France to Britain as part of the settlement of the so-called French and Indian War between Britain and France for control of North America. Britain's Quebec Act of 1774 granted certain privileges to the Roman Catholic church, guaranteed the continued use of French, and the French civil code rather than British Common Law, in the colony. Very special status indeed for an 18th century British colony. The Act also, and I didn't know this, extended the boundaries of Quebec to include parts of what are now Ontario and the American states of Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, which were all British-controlled lands at the time. Wanna try to get that territory back on separation? Quebec's had special status for over 230 years, increasingly so in the last 50 years or so, and it's never been enough. It will never be enough until Canada bows down to Quebec on all things and grants it whatever it wants, and pays for it all.

I believe Bear and I, and everyone who's agreed with us, are still right: this is gonna hurt, and it's gonna get ugly and stupid. It always has before. That's not to say I don't believe Quebec is different and special in a way no other province is. Obviously it *is*, you need only walk across the bridge from Ottawa to Hull, as I've done a dozen times to visit the Canadian Museum of Civilization, to spot that. I'd immediately agree it's entitled to cherish and preserve its language and culture. But not to the detriment of the rest of us.

Bottom line: you Quebecers, face the facts. Without the Quebec Act of 1774, and subsequent acts and analyses like Lord Durham's report, the Act of Union, the British North America Act, and sundry other things that clearly recognized your special status, which were really quite extraordinarily liberal for their time, your language and culture would be in about the same state as is the French language and culture in Louisiana. Be grateful, defend yourselves certainly, but don't push the limits so unreasonably. You can't have everything you want. None of us can. You're more secure within Canada than you would be alone against the world, because Canadian law protects you. Appreciate what you have, and quit complaining about the trivial things you don't have.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
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Montreal
Bottom line: you Quebecers, face the facts. Without the Quebec Act of 1774, and subsequent acts and analyses like Lord Durham's report, the Act of Union, the British North America Act, and sundry other things that clearly recognized your special status, which were really quite extraordinarily liberal for their time, your language and culture would be in about the same state as is the French language and culture in Louisiana. Be grateful, defend yourselves certainly, but don't push the limits so unreasonably. You can't have everything you want. None of us can. You're more secure within Canada than you would be alone against the world, because Canadian law protects you. Appreciate what you have, and quit complaining about the trivial things you don't have.

In the end it's all about independance. The Quebec nationalist movement plays an important role in ALL of Canada because it speaks for independance of communities. Quebecers ARE open to Canada... But somehow there still seems to be a pretty big difference between the Canada Quebec wants and the Canada the ROC wants... We want more independance plain and simple, and expect everyone else to be as independant as we are.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
536
113
Regina, SK
But how independent can the components of a federal state be before the federation ceases to exist? I fear that what Quebec wants would, if granted to all other provinces--and in fairness how could it not be?--would balkanize Canada into self-destruction. That's really what I perceived to be wrong with the Meech Lake Accord. So did Trudeau, if I've read him right.

And the destruction of Canada I think would be a terrible loss, to all of us Canadians, and to the world.
 

Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
4,968
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Harper has prepared Quebec for separation

Politics is the name, appeasement is the game, and power is the aim. Harper will pay the ulltimate political price come election day. While he is desperately trying to fool Quebec and Canada on a real stupid idea.
Come election time we will see the reality that will hit home. Just imagine a nation leaching from another nation HA HA HA.
 
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Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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Dexter it will be shameful to see Canada loose a key province like Quebec. It is the same like when one has a very dear collection, in this case Canadians consider the ten provinces a dear collection and here comes Harper who wants to brake that colection up for his own personal gain in hope for another run at Sussex. Should that happen Canada will not be the same in terms of the holistic ten provinces. Sentimentality, yes why not, Canada deserves to stay together and not squadered by Harpers personal selfserving political gratification.
 
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Socrates the Greek

I Remember them....
Apr 15, 2006
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Kid good link so true very sceary. What Canada can be tomorrow. Come election time it will be the day of political reckoning in Canada. Harper has a stick of dynamite in his hand called Quebec.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
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Montreal
But how independent can the components of a federal state be before the federation ceases to exist? I fear that what Quebec wants would, if granted to all other provinces--and in fairness how could it not be?--would balkanize Canada into self-destruction. That's really what I perceived to be wrong with the Meech Lake Accord. So did Trudeau, if I've read him right.

And the destruction of Canada I think would be a terrible loss, to all of us Canadians, and to the world.

I can certainly understand your concern. I too would be saddened to see Canada disapear...

But I'm not so sure massive decentraliztion would necessarily lead to self-destruction. I may be idealist but I think more regional independance within Canada would make space for a more human and honest sense of community. A voluntary web of inter-dependance is better than a regulated obligation to share.
 

Mr.Roboto

Ballroom dancing champion
Nov 24, 2006
54
0
6
Quebec City
Hi all, good to be here, first post!

The problem I see with all of this is that the notion of the word nation is different beetween french and english. It seems that that for most anglophones, it is synonimus to country, as for us french canadians, it is much more related to ethnicity, cultural group, etc...Like LittleRunningGag quoted from the Oxford dictionary.

To be honest, people here don't seem to be very bothered from these recent headlines. Because probably alot of us knew it in our harts for a long time that Quebec is a nation. As we believe that Acadia is a nation, and the metis form a nation, or the natives, that form the first nations. Its just a way to indentify cultural groups. Theres nobody here thinking that we now beleive that we suddenly inherited a country, because nation and country for us are much different words then in the anglophone community...So it seems.

Personaly, i'm thinking that this is blown way out of proportion. Because even if the PM said that we where a nation, wich made me smile, we knew it all along. Therefore, nothing very new in our everyday lives.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
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48
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Montreal
Hi all, good to be here, first post!

The problem I see with all of this is that the notion of the word nation is different beetween french and english. It seems that that for most anglophones, it is synonimus to country, as for us french canadians, it is much more related to ethnicity, cultural group, etc...Like LittleRunningGag quoted from the Oxford dictionary.

To be honest, people here don't seem to be very bothered from these recent headlines. Because probably alot of us knew it in our harts for a long time that Quebec is a nation. As we believe that Acadia is a nation, and the metis form a nation, or the natives, that form the first nations. Its just a way to indentify cultural groups. Theres nobody here thinking that we now beleive that we suddenly inherited a country, because nation and country for us are much different words then in the anglophone community...So it seems.

Personaly, i'm thinking that this is blown way out of proportion. Because even if the PM said that we where a nation, wich made me smile, we knew it all along. Therefore, nothing very new in our everyday lives.

As a french canadian/Québecois, I can only confirm what you are saying. It's no big deal here in Quebecé

It's only a big deal in the sense that we know this could rub many people's feathers the wrong way...
 

LittleRunningGag

Electoral Member
Jan 11, 2006
611
2
18
Calgary, Alberta
members.shaw.ca
I can't, because it does, that's the point. That isn't the only definition of nation in the Oxford dictionary, nor is it the most commonly understood meaning of the word. Look up state, you'll find it uses the word as a synonym for nation. As I posted previously, no unambiguous definition of nation is possible. Harper's motion, as clearly indicated by his speech around it, uses it as a cultural, linguistic, and sociological term for the Québécois, which is what that definition points to as well, but I'd bet heavily that most people hearing the word nation think of an independent sovereign country.

But thats the thing isn't it? Just because most people use the term incorrectly doesn't make it right. Politically speaking, a state is a political entity. A nation is a group of people. And the law looks at the true definition of the term, not the incorrect popular one.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
But thats the thing isn't it? Just because most people use the term incorrectly doesn't make it right. Politically speaking, a state is a political entity. A nation is a group of people. And the law looks at the true definition of the term, not the incorrect popular one.
If this is all simple window dressing, then how did Quebec use the simple title "distinct society" to trample the rights of the non french speaking peoples of Quebec?

This new title will see a court of law, likely the supreme court, and it will be used to further the french cause or the english.
 

General James Wolfe

Nominee Member
Oct 30, 2006
82
0
6
Quebec is not a Nation in my oppion.


Quebec belongs to Canada today
Quebec belongs to Canada tomorrow
Quebec belongs to Canada forever


I consider Quebec Anglophone soil and not Francophone soil. The French lost Quebec in the 7 Years War or the French and Indian War so that makes Quebec the property of English speaking Canada and Canadians.


I say to Anglophones of Britian to immergrate and Canada to migrate to Quebec and flood it with English speakers so that the French speaking population would be turned from a majority to a minority.

Send the Francophones of Quebec to far of Alaska.



LONG LIVE A UNITED CANADA
DEATH TO QUEBEC NATIONALISM


If Canada lets Quebec succede then Canada would betraying the memory of General James Wolfe and all British soilders who died fighting the French for Quebec.



I long for the day when Quebec is a majority Anglophone province instead of a Francophone majority province.


FLOOD QUEBEC WITH ENGLISH SPEAKERS.



LONG LIVE THE MEMORY OF GENERAL JAMES WOLFE AND ALL BRITISH SOILDERS WHO DIED FOR TAKING OVER QUEBEC FROM THE FRENCH.
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,976
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Now that Harper gave Quebec Nation status what will they want, sorry demand, from Canada next? A Royal French Navy, their own Air Force cough Create a Quebec Army far fetched you say who knows with the Seperatists cause Harper gave them Nation status with out consulting Canadians how far is Bobble Head Harper willing to sell out the people of Canada?
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
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The Evil Empire
What an emotionally charged thread this has been. From reading all the posts here, it appears it boils down to emotions and a dose of ego. I would assert the Seven Year War isn't quite over.