Constitutional debate re-awakening...

[s_lone]

Duceppe is trying to seduce Quebec city residents by asking them to imagine what Quebec city could be like as the capital of a sovereign country in 2015.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...023/duceppe_Quebec_061023/20061023?hub=Canada

Support for the Conservatives is falling in Quebec and the Bloc has started re-gaining the points it lost in the last election. The Liberals seem to start getting back up and the Quebec-wing just adopted a motion saying Quebec is a nation (approved by Ignatieff).

On the provincial side, the PQ is pretty much neck to neck with the Liberals.

What this tells me is that even if the provincial Liberals win the next election, Quebecers will soon expect a re-opening of the constitutional debate.

I think the constitutional debate is re-awakening slowly, but surely.

My question is how will Canadians react in all this? What will be the outcome?

 

[ottawabill]

As much as I want this country to stay a whole and to put all this behind us...I feel that if this whole separation issue arises with full power again we may be all so sick of it that we tell Quebec to leave (after removing military equipment and federal property.

Again...not what I want be there is only so much whining that anyone either wants to take or can handle...

I would wish the Bloxc good luck in getting al these New Yorkers to come up to their new country on the new railway unless they add much more English signage then they have now....The ironic thing of a separate Quebec would likely be a rapid loss of French language signage and services.

 

[EastSideScotian]

I think its treason.

I mean in away it can be seen as treason. I dont think we should allow their to be a seperation party, Plain and simple. We are a nation Quebec Signed on. If they want to leave they can fight as far as Iam concerned and then we can throw them all in jail for treason.

 

[ottawabill]

but to play devil's advocate... where would that take us. We would have an area of the country with 30% terrorist err (Freedom fighters) always looking to take there new country by force since the other side was so hardnosed. i.e. Northern Ireland.

As far a I'm concerned there should be a "put up or shut up" piece of legislation adopted.

A concrete plan for seperation by the federal Gov.
that says you will loss your funding (with the amount shown)
Loss all say in the north American currency U.S. or Can. dollar
re-negotiate all trade deals
Leave with the land you can to confederation with.
Have a referendum with natives as to staying with Quebec of remaining with Canada.
Canada and the U.S will continue control over the seaway system.



Lay it out in black and white..then have a fedreal referendum within Quebec on a clear question with clear implications..

 

[EastSideScotian]

but to play devil's advocate... where would that take us. We would have an area of the country with 30% terrorist err (Freedom fighters) always looking to take there new country by force since the other side was so hardnosed. i.e. Northern Ireland.

As far a I'm concerned there should be a "put up or shut up" piece of legislation adopted.

A concrete plan for seperation by the federal Gov.
that says you will loss your funding (with the amount shown)
Loss all say in the north American currency U.S. or Can. dollar
re-negotiate all trade deals
Leave with the land you can to confederation with.
Have a referendum with natives as to staying with Quebec of remaining with Canada.
Canada and the U.S will continue control over the seaway system.



Lay it out in black and white..then have a fedreal referendum within Quebec on a clear question with clear implications..

I can go for that Notion. Thats a pretty good idea.

 

[EastSideScotian]

So Quebec would be reduced to this
http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/mapping/mappingcanada/images/maps/1862.png

Or More or less this

Thats Good. But still dissconnects the Atlantic Canada from The Rest of Canada, so The Atlantic May get alot of the shipping bissness directed onto Halifax. Alot of Companys would become alot more interested in shipping to Canadas newest and somewhat more Close Major Port, The Ontario Ports wouldnt be able to handle it all of it. So The Canadian Bissness would be more or less shiffted to the Atlanic when Canada Pulls all of its interest and government out of the country.

 

[Colpy]

The problem is that Quebecois believe their territory includes not only Ungava (northern Quebec, became part of the province in 1922, I believe), but also includes Labrador..............

They probably also believe they have a right to Alberta's oil wells, I don't know.

What I do know is irreconcilable territorial demands means one thing......civil war.

That is the elephant in the room NO ONE will talk about.............

 

[ottawabill]

I really don't believe the U.S. is prepared to have a civil war next door...I'm not even sure Quebec would actually fight!!

I've said it before..the truth of the matter to me is that Quebec has a good thing going by whining and screaming then sit back and watch the money and presents flow in. Why ruin a good thing?.

btw I already know many people who go through the U.S. to go to the east coast..they feel more comfortable in New Hampshire then Quebec...

 

[s_lone]

The problem is that Quebecois believe their territory includes not only Ungava (northern Quebec, became part of the province in 1922, I believe), but also includes Labrador..............

They probably also believe they have a right to Alberta's oil wells, I don't know.

What I do know is irreconcilable territorial demands means one thing......civil war.

That is the elephant in the room NO ONE will talk about.............

Labrador belongs to Newfoundland and Quebecers know that as a fact. We would logically accept that it does not belong to us.

The north of Quebec would of course cause many intense discussion, but Alberta's oil wells belong to Alberta, not Quebec.

Civil war implies many citizen's ready to fight with arms. Because the great majority of Quebec's population is in the south, a rather clear Quebec territory, I just don't see people fighting violently over territory they don't live in. I would be a bit worried about the situation in Montreal, where there are so many federalists but still, I just don't see why things would have to turn violent. Quebec would not become a dictatorial state for God's sake!

 

[s_lone]

I did not want to start another thread on Quebec seperation. I rather want to discuss the implications of a possible re-opening of the constitutional debate.

What do YOU think about the Quebec Liberals AND Ignatieff declaring Quebec is a nation. Would you support a motion saying so? Is it possible to have Quebec sign onto the constitution once and for all? Is there a danger of flaring up Quebec seperatism with a re-opening of the debate? If so, what should we do, cover our eyes and accept that our country is a constitutionally incoherent?

 

[ottawabill]

S-lon, The rest of the country feels stood up by Quebec. Thats part of the reason you here this less than wonderful attitude.

We (the english speaking population) can to realize that the French in Quebec didn't feel at home in the rest of the country. Trudeau brought that to our attention. So we happily when along with the bi-lingual nation approach. We started French in schools and put up bi-lingual signage. Sure it wasn't everything but we were trying. What happened? Quebec then outlawed English..even to their English minority. That started the ball rolling. Then came separation talk.

Now in places like Ottawa it is very French and English on the Ottawa side..while French only on the Gatineau side..doesn't feel very fair especially when one side was trying to fix some wrongs.


The biggest problem with separation was as you said..the biggest city and economic engine of the province wants nothing to do with it....

Thats no way to start a country is it??

 

[Colpy]

I did not want to start another thread on Quebec seperation. I rather want to discuss the implications of a possible re-opening of the constitutional debate.

What do YOU think about the Quebec Liberals AND Ignatieff declaring Quebec is a nation. Would you support a motion saying so? Is it possible to have Quebec sign onto the constitution once and for all? Is there a danger of flaring up Quebec seperatism with a re-opening of the debate? If so, what should we do, cover our eyes and accept that our country is a constitutionally incoherent?

Simply put, if Canada recognizes Quebec as a nation, separation is inevitable.

Quebec is NOT a nation, it is a province of Canada.

When Quebec became a part of Canada, it accepted an act of constitution (the British North America Act, and yes, I know it is British legislation) that created a system where the Federal government was the supreme power. That in itself defeats any claim Quebec has to nationhood.

The Liberals are drooling idiots to start rubbing this particular bottle at this time. No surprize there. (although the last guy to really let the Genie out was a PC....Mulrooney) Yes, bringing up the debate breathes life into the separatist movement.

Mind you, there are lots of times I think we should hold a referendum in the RoC on separation from Quebec...........

 

[ottawabill]

The Liberals can never see past the next election..never have , never will.

The only reason they yak about Quebec is to make sure they keep the votes from the Conservatives within Quebec. Mushy Ontario will vote for them no matter what they say about Quebec (outside of eastern Ontario) and they lost the west so that doesn't matter.

These are not people who really care about a nation.. they only care about regoinal power bases..

If we were not so spineless we would demand the Quebec put up or shut up.

You can go way back to the begining and ask why the French were allowed to stay in the first place. But you'd come up with more regional power base. Afterall at one time the power lay with the United provinces of Canada (Ontario and Quebec) If you didn't play nice with Quebec your power would vanish..it's not new.

I would like to know where Quebec thinks it is separating to? They can't really leave.. they have to stay where they are..They would be even more surrounded by English since the rest of Canada would stop caring about French and the U.S. never did.... French would be by market forces not legislation. How many movies and toy packages would be in French just for a few million people...Only the top sellers. It wouldn't be worth it for the small numbers. The only reason it's worth it now is because Canada demands it across the country...a market of 30 million...

Wake up Quebec, it's the U.S. that runs the show..the English U.S..... If it's not worth the time and money it ain't gonna be done in French!!

 

[CDNBear]

I can only base what I'm about to say, on drunken conjecture and ramblings, while drinking Petite Caribou with several Native friends and relatives in Cornwall, shortly before the last referendumn.

The Mohawk Warrior's, were poised to take the St. Lawrence Seaway, by force, and our brothers the Cree, in the North, were preparing to take the Northern part of the province, once again by force if neccessary.

The neccessary was added, because they felt, that there might be some resistance. But the over all perception was that the Quebecious, would fold, as they have shown time and time again, that they lack the fortitude for combat.

Remember now, we were all drunk, real drunk, Petite Caribou, is like paint thinner without the heady character.

 

[Sassylassie]

I saw Duceppe on Canada AM stating that if Harper doesn't give Quebec 4.5 Billion more Federal dollars he's going to force an election. I've hunted high and low for a written article, I even went to CBC and there is nothing in the media about his ultimatum. I was again insulted by this man and his party, they act like the rest of Canada is irrelevant. I have had enough of Quebec and I'm tired of the Feds pandering to them, I hope Harper gives him the finger and lets them force an Election because I for one will vote PC. Harper is protecting all of Canada not just Quebec and it's love of polls. Quebec doesn't have the guts to seperate, who'd pay for all their special "Laws".

 

[the caracal kid]

What I do know is irreconcilable territorial demands means one thing......civil war.

That is the elephant in the room NO ONE will talk about.............

Civil War is indeed a real possibility. However, one that is very unlikely. Not because the Quebecois are not willing to fight for their own country so much as the canadian is not willing to fight for the current mess.

I did not want to start another thread on Quebec seperation. I rather want to discuss the implications of a possible re-opening of the constitutional debate.

What do YOU think about the Quebec Liberals AND Ignatieff declaring Quebec is a nation. Would you support a motion saying so? Is it possible to have Quebec sign onto the constitution once and for all? Is there a danger of flaring up Quebec seperatism with a re-opening of the debate? If so, what should we do, cover our eyes and accept that our country is a constitutionally incoherent?

The constitutional debate is a pandora's box that must be opened. Canada has not just a constitution that is not signed by one province, but a notion of a country based on two nations. If canada wishes to perpetuate the concept of being of "two nations" then it must sort out exactly what that is. Does this merely mean historically it is built on two nations (only)? Does it mean it is currently a country of two nations? If it is a country of two nations, how does this co-exist within the modern country (geo-politically and culturally)?

It is human nature to not willingly surrender a preferred status. Would you?

A rational discussion on the topic must include the option of the "two nations" becoming two separate nations (at a minimum). Realistically, canada is flawed. Perhaps fatally flawed. Can they be corrected, or will correction only come through collapse?

Simply put, if Canada recognizes Quebec as a nation, separation is inevitable.

Quebec is NOT a nation, it is a province of Canada.

When Quebec became a part of Canada, it accepted an act of constitution (the British North America Act, and yes, I know it is British legislation) that created a system where the Federal government was the supreme power. That in itself defeats any claim Quebec has to nationhood.

The Liberals are drooling idiots to start rubbing this particular bottle at this time. No surprize there. (although the last guy to really let the Genie out was a PC....Mulrooney) Yes, bringing up the debate breathes life into the separatist movement.

Mind you, there are lots of times I think we should hold a referendum in the RoC on separation from Quebec...........

Just dissolve canada into its parts. "Pacifica" has more in common with Cascadia than the praries, the parts of the praries have more in common with their southern neighbours, Ontario seems to just live on its own, Quebec wants to live on its own. Does that work for you?

I agree with you that politicians have been playing hot potatoe with the topic for far too long though. The lovely politicians buying support at the expense of one future. How short-sighted. How "canadian". I have heard it said canada is the land of the "dumb white man". Time and time again, failing to see further down the road than the end of his greedy snout. No wonder the "leaders" have these attributes (in both major parties).

 

[EastSideScotian]

I can only base what I'm about to say, on drunken conjecture and ramblings, while drinking Petite Caribou with several Native friends and relatives in Cornwall, shortly before the last referendumn.

The Mohawk Warrior's, were poised to take the St. Lawrence Seaway, by force, and our brothers the Cree, in the North, were preparing to take the Northern part of the province, once again by force if neccessary.

.

Take it for which reason, to keep it for Canada? Yourselves or Quebec?

 

[s_lone]

Simply put, if Canada recognizes Quebec as a nation, separation is inevitable.

Quebec is NOT a nation, it is a province of Canada.

.

This is such a beautiful irony... The more Canada insists Quebec is not a a nation, the more Quebec will feel as one...

 

[ottawabill]

But what Quebec doesn't think about is that if it is (or will be) a nation, it is a small nation like Costa Rica or Croatia 4 to 6 million (remembering that a portion of it's population would leave just like what happened in the 1970's)..Any Canadian head office would leave, no out of spite be because they are not in the right country to be a Canadian head office. All extra funding from the Fed's would stop.

The bloc continually talks about the money they lose to the Feds but never say that they get more back them what they put it...Look it up!!

Just remember not a big powerful nation..but rather a small who cares nation, with a population not speaking the language of most of the world since english education is not funded..It's too bad but the reality is the world is English, business is English, air traffic is English..a fact that doesn't change even if you are a nation!!

 

[Vicious]

Last month there was an article on the cbc website saying that the population of Alberta and BC combined is now greater than Quebec. Currently BC+Alberta = 64 seats in the house of commons and Quebec with 75. In a few years when they redraw the electoral map BC and Alberta will get more seats (although I bet still less than Quebec).

To me the above points out that Quebec's ability to make demands of the federal governemtn are numbered. Ontario + BC + Alberta makes for a majority right now, with more seats in the west the federal parties will have to be careful not to piss-off BC and Alberta in favour of Quebec (or vice versa). With a diminishing voice in the country it will soon be time for Quebec to put-up or shut-up on the separation issue.