Gunman kills at least 3 at small Amish school

[tracy]

I'm not interested in another gun debate so I'll leave that part alone.

I just wanted to express my complete horror at this. I don't understand a man picking off defenseless little girls like target practice. It's sick.

 

[Colpy]

This guy was very different from the usual school shooter, or for that matter, he was different from the usual spree killer.

He was married, with three kids.

I honestly think this guy was psychotic...........I think we'll find he had some kind of mental disease.

Scarily enough, I DON'T believe that is true of most of the shooters.

I think that often the kids that go on shooting sprees, such as Klebold and Harris, as well as Gill, are absolutely indulged by their families. It seems the Columbine shooters were given everything, forgiven without prejudice everything, enabled in every way. I suspect the same of Gill. I know the Columbine shooters were NEVER challenged in any serious way by their parents. Harris' father had to pay for a car he son had trasdhed with a baseball bat........his attitude was "Boys will be boys!" One set of parents found 14" of sawn-off shotgun barrel.........no action taken.........what has Gill done for the last 7 years? Where did he get the $3000 to buy his fancy weapons, to say nothing of his computer?

To me, and I'm no psychologist, there are three problems with raising kids so completely spoiled, so indulged.

The first is, they never learn any responsibility for their actions, they never are forced to see anything outside their own needs, therefore they learn no empathy, no concern for the unimportant......that is, anything outside their own head, including other people.

Secondly, the indulged believe themselves untouchable, above actual suffering, deserving of all. Thus when they are denied anything, given the tiniest slight, they nurse it into a sense of somehow being wronged, leading to a need for vengence.

Thirdly, nothing matters. There is NO challenge to their lives, all is a gift, everything is relative, it is as if they don't really have anything outside themselves that challenges them, that threatens them, that really moves them, that makes them realize they are alive.

So they create the ultimate challenge that inevitably ends in their own demise.

Weird.

 

[tamarin]

A lot of good contributions here! Curiosity, I think you nailed it.
America seems like an alien place this morning. How can it bring peace and hope to the world when neither is deliverable at home?

 

[Blackleaf]

Banning handguns won't solve the problem

Yes, it is. If people keep going into schools with handguns and killing other people then the solution is to ban handguns. There's nothing else you would ban. You would ban handguns.

as they have always been in existence in the USA since its inception and have never been thought to be a public hazard

Guns are not thought to be a public hazard in the United States? What planet do you live on? How can guns not be a public hazard when they have killed 5 Amish children this week and several people in two or three other American school shooting just last week?

So guns have murdered several innocent children in the US in the last few weeks but they aren't considered to be a hazard?

 

[Curiosity]

Blackleaf

Utilizing your argument we would then have to ban cars.

 

[Blackleaf]

Why? Is it common in the United States for people to deliberately use their cars to murder as many children as they can?

Talking about Americans and cars, the Yanks seem to be almost as obsessed with cars as they are with guns. I've heard many reports of Americans travelling in their cars just to visit their neighbours across the street.

The Americans should follow the example set by the British - a smaller percentage of British households own guns than the United States, Canada, Germany, France, Italy and virtually every other country in the Western World. Our murder rate is almost the lowest in the world and so is the murder rate by people being shot.

And, per capita, Britain also has less cars than the US, Canada and most of Continental Europe. The result? The safest roads in the world with less road deaths than virtually every other Western nation.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Why? Is it common in the United States for people to deliberately use their cars to murder as many children as they can?

Talking about Americans and cars, the Yanks seem to be almost as obsessed with cars as they are with guns. I've heard many reports of Americans travelling in their cars just to visit their neighbours across the street.

The Americans should follow the example set by the British - a smaller percentage of British households own guns than the United States, Canada, Germany, France, Italy and virtually every other country in the Western World. Our murder rate is almost the lowest in the world and so is the murder rate by people being shot.

And, per capita, Britain also has less cars than the US, Canada and most of Continental Europe. The result? The safest roads in the world with less road deaths than virtually every other Western nation.

Care to back these claims up?

 

[Colpy]

Yes, it is. If people keep going into schools with handguns and killing other people then the solution is to ban handguns. There's nothing else you would ban. You would ban handguns.

Guns are not thought to be a public hazard in the United States? What planet do you live on? How can guns not be a public hazard when they have killed 5 Amish children this week and several people in two or three other American school shooting just last week?

So guns have murdered several innocent children in the US in the last few weeks but they aren't considered to be a hazard?

Blackleaf, as I said before, both the shooter at the Amish school and the shooterr at Dawson College in Montreal carried shotguns as well as their handguns, or handgun-caliber weapons.

In both places they used the 9mms exclusively. Had there BEEN no 9mms, they would have used the shotguns, which are MANY more times lethal.

Also, in Ireland 20 years ago a guy went into an elementary school with a homemade flamethrower......I don't remember how many he killed. Guns are basically banned in Ireland.......lovely peaceful place, isn't it? (Sarcasm alert)

In Kenya recently a student at a boarding school threw a molotov cocktail into a dorm......54 died.

YOU CAN'T STOP NUTS KILLING BY BANNING INANIMATE OBJECTS!

BTW, in my entire 52 years of being around all kinds of guns, I have never yet seen one stand up, load itself, and open fire. GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, people kill people.

 

[Curiosity]

The latest news reports on the killer....

....are describing what is in the note he left his wife. He said he has molested other children over the years and if he stands in the usual "molester profile" - 20 years ago it could be he was molested himself.

That is no excuse and not why I am writing this - many molested people do not kill others - suicides yes - but not murders.

Or he could have been lying - in a fantasy about getting sympathy for the monstrous act he was going to pull.

 

[jimmoyer]

As a side note, I grew up in the next two counties there in Pennsylvania and know the area well.
My mother is German, Pennsylvania Dutch, bowdlerizing the Deutsch to dutch.

There are in Lancaster County, the town of PARADISE where this execution happened, is
surrounded by a Bermuda Triangle of interesting names, such as BLUE BALLS, the town of INTERCOURSE,
the town of BIRD IN HAND.

 

[jimmoyer]

As a side note, I grew up in the next two counties there in Pennsylvania and know the area well.
My mother is German, Pennsylvania Dutch, bowdlerizing the Deutsch to dutch.

There are in Lancaster County, the town of PARADISE ,where this execution happened,
surrounded by a Bermuda Triangle of interesting names, such as BLUE BALLS, the town of INTERCOURSE,
the town of BIRD IN HAND.

And that whole area has a culture of non-violence, quiet living, an oasis in the midst of painful
modernity and creeping suburban sprawl.

Kids do know right from wrong. They know it's wrong, but they are immature in feeling for others
and I'm not sure any solution will completely prevent one deranged fellow from acting out his drama,
and of course it's usually a male. From the day we are a born a wash of chemical bathes our brains
in the womb.

We will have to lose all sorts of freedoms to close down the potential for one occurrence.

And it's still more of a miniscule chance of this strange horror happening to you than
you having an accident in your car.

get perspective.

We certainly prove over and over again we are mere creatures of the headlines.

 

[shannon]

So guns have murdered several innocent children in the US in the last few weeks but they aren't considered to be a hazard?

Interesting. Cars have killed numerous innocent children in the US in the last few weeks but they aren't considered to be a hazard?

 

[gopher]

`` GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, people kill people. ``


Precisely the point I was trying to make to Blackleaf who seems to have been reading something that wasn't there.

 

[feronia]

I don't believe this is a gun issue. I believe this is an issue about mental health. This man was past sick. Why wasn't he noticed by family or friends to have a need? Mental breakdown is not an excuse for killing young children (or anyone) but in hindsight could this have been prevented?

 

[Gonzo]

The problem is that when people are mentally ill they let them out. They don't have the funding to keep these people in a hospital. You can't force someone to take medication for their illness. He should of been locked away. I don't believe you can heal these people. If they are cabable of this they should never see the light of day.
What really gets me is he, like the killer in montreal, killed himself. I'd like to have seen him in jail where he is beaten on a daily bases. People in jail have families and take care of nuts like Roberts.

 

[sanch]

"GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, people kill people. ``"

Well I have spent time in villages in Mexico and cities in Colombia and I have passed through the tribal lands of Pakistan a few times. What I have seen there are a lot of guns and quite coincidentally there are a lot of murders. Of course people use guns to kill people. Guns can be hidden and are just a convenient weapon.

The issue of legal owners of guns is also debatable. I was talking to a friend (a republican if it makes a difference) who is running in the local election and he said that you know gun owners will never give up their guns voluntarily. So there is always a threat. Plus to me when someone identifies that closely with a gun—the phallic referent again—this is a sign of insecurity and lack of power and so the mental status is debatable.

 

[Curiosity]

Sanch

If you were referring to a U.S. Republican - they have some very rigid ideas regarding the Second Amendment of the Constitution - the Right to Bear Arms.

They are determined the Constitution not be rewritten.

I don't know much more about it.

 

[Curiosity]

Sanch

Tried to add this but can't access the Edit feature: Here is the Wikipedia definition of the Second Amendment language:

Amendment II (the Second Amendment) of the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, declares the necessity for "a well regulated militia", and prohibits infringement of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms".

 

[gopher]

"per capita, Britain also has less cars..."


Of course, Britain's land expanse is considerably smaller than the vast expanse of the USA. Therefore, the railroad system is a lot more practical. Indeed, I understand it is among the world's best. Furthermore, because of that smaller expanse, bicycles and buses become even more practical than do autos.

I note that the Yanks answering this thread from all sides of the political spectrum have been very candid in their assessments of the violence sickness that pervades our society. It is very unusual for Yanks to be this candid about a character flaw in our Land but it's good to see that for once we are in accord.

 

[jimmoyer]

Plus to me when someone identifies that closely with a gun—the phallic referent again—this is a sign of insecurity and lack of power and so the mental status is debatable.
---------------------------------Sanchez-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In some ways that statement is ridiculous depending how you grew up in a rural or more urban suburban
environment.

In the 40s my Dad and his friends used to walk to high school in outside of Philadelphia area
with his friends with a .22 rifle and plink
at some squirrels and then they'd store their guns in their lockers.

The idea of NORMAL is a shifting parameter MAINLY based on rural vs urban life style and rural
vs urban mindthink.