Omnibus Russia Ukraine crisis

[Jinentonix]

So question:

Are Canadians ready to pay more in taxes to see the upgrade that's obviously needed to our Military? Or do we just do what the US does, spend without giving a damn, borrow to cover the costs and hope all goes well?

We can always scrap our universal health care system since the ONLY reason we could afford one in the first place is by relying heavily on the US for OUR defence. Or we could be less drastic and just put an end to the $6.5-$7 billion we waste in foreign aid every year. OR here's a novel idea, instead of the govt hammering Canadians with more and more pointless taxes and killing the economy, how about they do something to increase productivity. Higher productivity leads to more tax revenues for the govt.
2%. That's all that's required is 2% of our GDP. I mean Jesus Christ if tiny little Finland and Denmark can manage it, why the fuck can't Canada?

 

[Jinentonix]

We used to have militia, but it was phased out. I was thinking of joining it actually but it was gone before I could.



Valid points.

But it still wouldn't be enough even if we 'spent wisely'. IMO we need to do what some places in Europe are doing now, up our military spending to 3% of GDP. I say that because of a clip I saw where people in Russia are talking about putting their military in Berlin, Lisbon, Paris, London and other places.

And I, for one, would rather us take them as saying so seriously, than think they're delusions of grandeur.

Oh please. These losers can't even defeat little Ukraine after almost 3 years of war and they want to threaten the Big Dog? Remember Serryah, these are propagandists. Their job is to spew hyperbole and rhetoric. Their messaging is more for Russian consumption rather than global consumption.

 

[petros]

, these are propagandists. Their job is to spew hyperbole and rhetoric. Their messaging is more for Russian consumption rather than global consumption.

Israel has propaganda mastered. Russia is learning from them.

 

[Serryah]

Oh please. These losers can't even defeat little Ukraine after almost 3 years of war and they want to threaten the Big Dog? Remember Serryah, these are propagandists. Their job is to spew hyperbole and rhetoric. Their messaging is more for Russian consumption rather than global consumption.

Yes, I'm aware that it's propaganda and all for "Russian Nationalism".

But they do give a mindset of where things are currently in Russia. And Putin is a fucking wackadoo.

I'd rather err on the side of caution than be a Chamberlain, thank you.

 

[Serryah]

We can always scrap our universal health care system

No.

Or we could be less drastic and just put an end to the $6.5-$7 billion we waste in foreign aid every year.

You don't get how foreign aid and politics and how it intertwines with Canada and it's security works, do you?

OR here's a novel idea, instead of the govt hammering Canadians with more and more pointless taxes and killing the economy, how about they do something to increase productivity.

Well that's finally an idea that makes sense (and I can agree with, am all for).

But you know where those productivity places will be, right?

Higher productivity leads to more tax revenues for the govt.

You'd hope, but depends on WHAT is being produced and how much the Government is bending over to those corporations.

I would LOVE to see - for example - Shipbuilding come back to Saint John. The Military built quite a few ships there, but of course they got "better prices" from other countries buying second hand then retrofitting.

I'd love to see NB actually have something going for it other than seasonal work. But when you've competition like Ontario, Quebec and Alberta, you're pretty much fucked. I mean, the 'home grown' company my dad used to work for moved their production facilities to Ontario, because production was, in the end, cheaper (thanks to shipping). When the manufacturing left, it wasn't long before the entire facility vanished. And that was within one generation pretty much. When you go from a growing company in the 70's and 80's, with a head office, guys working in shifts and a dedicated CEO to keeping the work local, to the main office vanishing in 2000's, the production plant gone and a skeleton crew only working now...

It's lack of incentives, it's logistics and it's the reality that outside of Quebec and Ontario, Alberta and BC (specifically Vancouver), every other province is 'rural', even in it's cities and there's just nothing appealing to bring companies in when they can go to places like the US, Mexico or over to Europe or Asia.

2%. That's all that's required is 2% of our GDP.

That's not high enough.

https://www.president.pl/news/president-nato-members-must-raise-their-defense-spending-to-3-percent-of-gdp,82405

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-president-says-nato-members-should-spend-3-gdp-defence-2024-03-11/

Nato’s European members discuss 3% target for defence spending

Increased military expenditure could be agreed at next year’s summit, intensifying pressure on national budgets

www.ft.com

And I don't think it's high enough because even if it's not Russia, it could be China, or the Middle East or even the US.

I mean Jesus Christ if tiny little Finland and Denmark can manage it, why the fuck can't Canada?

Good question; what's YOUR answer to that?

Country comparison Denmark vs Canada 2024

Country comparison, you can compare any two countries and see the data side by side. Here you have the comparison of Denmark vs Canada

countryeconomy.com

Denmark Canada

Taxes
Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]	2023	43.9%		33.2%	2022	Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]
Standard VAT [+]	01/01/1992	25.00%		5.00%	01/01/2008	Standard VAT [+]
Top tax rate + SSC [+]	2022	55.5%		53.5%	2022	Top tax rate + SSC [+]

Finland Canada

Taxes
Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]	2023	42.5%		33.2%	2022	Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]
Standard VAT [+]	01/01/2013	24.00%		5.00%	01/01/2008	Standard VAT [+]
Top tax rate + SSC [+]	2022	59.4%		53.5%	2022	Top tax rate + SSC [+]

Oops... guess that's how they can afford it in part.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

We can always scrap our universal health care system since the ONLY reason we could afford one in the first place is by relying heavily on the US for OUR defence. Or we could be less drastic and just put an end to the $6.5-$7 billion we waste in foreign aid every year. OR here's a novel idea, instead of the govt hammering Canadians with more and more pointless taxes and killing the economy, how about they do something to increase productivity. Higher productivity leads to more tax revenues for the govt.
2%. That's all that's required is 2% of our GDP. I mean Jesus Christ if tiny little Finland and Denmark can manage it, why the fuck can't Canada?

While I agree that 2% for defense is an eminently reasonable and do-able target, I'm suspicious of the government "doing something to increase productivity." My basic training squadron's motto was "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way." I think the best "something" government can do to increase productivity is leave it alone and stay in their lane.

 

[Serryah]

While I agree that 2% for defense is an eminently reasonable and do-able target,

2% was agreed upon I think because it WAS do-able as a target, or it should be.

Canada has been a fucking dick about putting money where it should go for this (can't tell it irritates me though, eh? )

And I am in agreement with other NATO nations that maybe 3% would be better (but then I've never thought we spent enough on the military so...)

I'm suspicious of the government "doing something to increase productivity."

Good point - usually Jin is so anti-government being involved in anything, suggesting they should do something to help 'increase productivity' is a little out of form.

My basic training squadron's motto was "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way."

Love that saying; too many don't live by it though.

I think the best "something" government can do to increase productivity is leave it alone and stay in their lane.

To be fair, Government can help PUSH productivity by offering incentives to get things going. Sadly NB is a great example of Government "leaving productivity alone"; it's left alone so much there isn't anything here really.

The irony is, in speaking with a realter friend of mine tonight, he said there are LOTS of people who want to move to NB, but there's no housing or anything here for people to get, nor land. He's had 10 days off in the last year, that's including yesterday. And he's literally travelled all over the province to sell places, even though we're literally on the border of NS, but people like him and stick with him. Yet despite that, if you go to Moncton, there's so much building going on it's crazy.

We just can't keep up with demand. And living single just isn't possible anymore. Hell, he said the house I have likely went up in price to over 200K just because, which is infuckingsane to me. Thankfully I have a renter now but it's still to the point I've been debating a second job, even though I work full time now, just to help with stuff.

He said if someone is working trades, they could make soooo much right now here. (I'd switch professions but I don't do well with math which sucks because my dad was a Tech guy and he'd bring home plans of structures and I understood em better than my brother, who was better at math.)

IMO Government needs to push more for schools to open, for kids to go into the trades.

So I guess it just depends on what 'involvement' Government should have that should be the question.

 

[petros]

The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, and the Minister of National Defence, Bill Blair, today released Our North, Strong and Free: A Renewed Vision for Canada's Defence and announced a new overall investment of $8.1 billion over five years and $73 billion over 20 years in defence spending to be included in the upcoming ...Apr 8, 2024

https://www.pm.gc.ca › 2024/04/08
Our North, Strong and Free: A Renewed Vision for Canada's Defence

Expect more, far more from Poilievre.

 

[Serryah]

 

[Jinentonix]

While I agree that 2% for defense is an eminently reasonable and do-able target, I'm suspicious of the government "doing something to increase productivity." My basic training squadron's motto was "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way." I think the best "something" government can do to increase productivity is leave it alone and stay in their lane.

That doing something can be as simple as reducing or eliminating certain taxes that make Canada less desirable for investment. They could so something outlandish like, oh, I don't know, get rid of all the needless red tape just to develop our resources. Key word here being "needless", not all.
I think those would fall under the "Get Out of the Way" category.

 

[Jinentonix]

Good point - usually Jin is so anti-government being involved in anything, suggesting they should do something to help 'increase productivity' is a little out of form.

There's a big difference between being involved in something and interfering with something. Also, read my response to T-Bones. Simply reversing idiotic, pea-brained, ideological legislation would go a LONG way in helping.

 

[Serryah]

There's a big difference between being involved in something and interfering with something. Also, read my response to T-Bones. Simply reversing idiotic, pea-brained, ideological legislation would go a LONG way in helping.

No argument from me on that.

 

[Jinentonix]

No.

Right. Obvious answer.

You don't get how foreign aid and politics and how it intertwines with Canada and it's security works, do you?

When you are literally borrowing billions to GIVE to someone else with no strings attached and no hope of ever seeing a payoff when you're already heavily indebted, you know what that makes you? A friggin' moron. A financially reckless idiot. Who gives a fuck about unemployed youth in Iraq? We got lots of them right here at home. (Trudeau gave Iraq $10 million for unemployed youth). I mean for fuck sakes, we're giving foreign to fucking China! A nuclear power with the second largest economy on the planet and WE are giving THEM free money. Well that's not entirely true. We get all the free Chinese-made pre-cursors for fentanyl that they can ship. What a sweet deal huh?
Emergency relief is one thing. Foreign aid is bullshit.

Well that's finally an idea that makes sense (and I can agree with, am all for).

But you know where those productivity places will be, right?

Anywhere. I'm not just talking about manufacturing. Nova Scotia and rest of the Maritime coastal areas could get into red seaweed farming. It would also help to "solve" the alleged cow methane "problem". In fact the idea was stumbled upon by a farmer from Nova Scotia and was verified by an independent study from Dalhousie University. I'm not suggesting that's the only thing that could be done in Nova Scotia it's just an example.

You'd hope, but depends on WHAT is being produced and how much the Government is bending over to those corporations.

I don't just mean that kind of productivity. I'm also talking from a worker perspective. More jobs, more people working, more tax revenues. More decent paying jobs, more people working, even higher tax revenues. That's because people would be spending more because they're making more, whether as individuals or as a working society. It's simple math. The more people earning a wage/salary above the minimum tax threshold, the higher the revenues for the govt.

I would LOVE to see - for example - Shipbuilding come back to Saint John. The Military built quite a few ships there, but of course they got "better prices" from other countries buying second hand then retrofitting.

I'd love to see NB actually have something going for it other than seasonal work. But when you've competition like Ontario, Quebec and Alberta, you're pretty much fucked. I mean, the 'home grown' company my dad used to work for moved their production facilities to Ontario, because production was, in the end, cheaper (thanks to shipping). When the manufacturing left, it wasn't long before the entire facility vanished. And that was within one generation pretty much. When you go from a growing company in the 70's and 80's, with a head office, guys working in shifts and a dedicated CEO to keeping the work local, to the main office vanishing in 2000's, the production plant gone and a skeleton crew only working now...

It's lack of incentives, it's logistics and it's the reality that outside of Quebec and Ontario, Alberta and BC (specifically Vancouver), every other province is 'rural', even in it's cities and there's just nothing appealing to bring companies in when they can go to places like the US, Mexico or over to Europe or Asia.

Yeahhh maybe. But if you're going to compare provinces in Canada like that, well, how much foreign investment do you think Rhode Island has? Or Maine or Vermont? I dunno myself but I'm guessing not a lot. It happens in big countries like Canada. Look at China, throughout its 30 years of prosperity. The western part of China lagged behind because pretty much all development and investment was in the east and south because of its proximity to major shipping lanes.
It's a monumental task to make a geographically huge and diverse country equally productive across its entirety. Canada is one of those countries.

That's not high enough.

Yer right. I'd like to see us spend at least 3.5%.

https://www.president.pl/news/president-nato-members-must-raise-their-defense-spending-to-3-percent-of-gdp,82405

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-president-says-nato-members-should-spend-3-gdp-defence-2024-03-11/

Nato’s European members discuss 3% target for defence spending

Increased military expenditure could be agreed at next year’s summit, intensifying pressure on national budgets

www.ft.com

And I don't think it's high enough because even if it's not Russia, it could be China, or the Middle East or even the US.

Well if it's Russia, the Mid-East or China there's a pretty good chance the US will jump to our defence with both feet, even if for their own self-interests. If the US invades us we're fucked because I sure as hell wouldn't want Russia coming to our aid.

Good question; what's YOUR answer to that?

Country comparison Denmark vs Canada 2024

Country comparison, you can compare any two countries and see the data side by side. Here you have the comparison of Denmark vs Canada

countryeconomy.com

Denmark Canada

Taxes
Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]	2023	43.9%		33.2%	2022	Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]
Standard VAT [+]	01/01/1992	25.00%		5.00%	01/01/2008	Standard VAT [+]
Top tax rate + SSC [+]	2022	55.5%		53.5%	2022	Top tax rate + SSC [+]

Finland Canada

Taxes
Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]	2023	42.5%		33.2%	2022	Tax Revenue (%GDP) [+]
Standard VAT [+]	01/01/2013	24.00%		5.00%	01/01/2008	Standard VAT [+]
Top tax rate + SSC [+]	2022	59.4%		53.5%	2022	Top tax rate + SSC [+]

Oops... guess that's how they can afford it in part.

Uh huh. The US has substantially lower taxes than we do but yeah, whatever.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Uh huh. The US has substantially lower taxes than we do but yeah, whatever.

Taken a look at our national debt lately?

 

[Ron in Regina]

Right. Obvious answer.

When you are literally borrowing billions to GIVE to someone else with no strings attached and no hope of ever seeing a payoff when you're already heavily indebted, you know what that makes you? A friggin' moron. A financially reckless idiot. Who gives a fuck about unemployed youth in Iraq? We got lots of them right here at home. (Trudeau gave Iraq $10 million for unemployed youth). I mean for fuck sakes, we're giving foreign to fucking China! A nuclear power with the second largest economy on the planet and WE are giving THEM free money. Well that's not entirely true. We get all the free Chinese-made pre-cursors for fentanyl that they can ship. What a sweet deal huh?
Emergency relief is one thing. Foreign aid is bullshit.


Anywhere. I'm not just talking about manufacturing. Nova Scotia and rest of the Maritime coastal areas could get into red seaweed farming. It would also help to "solve" the alleged cow methane "problem". In fact the idea was stumbled upon by a farmer from Nova Scotia and was verified by an independent study from Dalhousie University. I'm not suggesting that's the only thing that could be done in Nova Scotia it's just an example.

I don't just mean that kind of productivity. I'm also talking from a worker perspective. More jobs, more people working, more tax revenues. More decent paying jobs, more people working, even higher tax revenues. That's because people would be spending more because they're making more, whether as individuals or as a working society. It's simple math. The more people earning a wage/salary above the minimum tax threshold, the higher the revenues for the govt.

Yeahhh maybe. But if you're going to compare provinces in Canada like that, well, how much foreign investment do you think Rhode Island has? Or Maine or Vermont? I dunno myself but I'm guessing not a lot. It happens in big countries like Canada. Look at China, throughout its 30 years of prosperity. The western part of China lagged behind because pretty much all development and investment was in the east and south because of its proximity to major shipping lanes.
It's a monumental task to make a geographically huge and diverse country equally productive across its entirety. Canada is one of those countries.

Yer right. I'd like to see us spend at least 3.5%.

Well if it's Russia, the Mid-East or China there's a pretty good chance the US will jump to our defence with both feet, even if for their own self-interests. If the US invades us we're fucked because I sure as hell wouldn't want Russia coming to our aid.

Uh huh. The US has substantially lower taxes than we do but yeah, whatever.

The US has 11 times the population of Canada, so more bodies to spread that debt & spending over, & is geographically more….condensed…as far as infrastructure spending goes, with a more human-friendly climate weather-wise much of the year.

Taken a look at our national debt lately?

Yes, with a greater capacity to deal with it comparatively.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

The US has 11 times the population of Canada, so more bodies to spread that debt & spending over, & is geographically more….condensed…as far as infrastructure spending goes, with a more human-friendly climate weather-wise much of the year.

Yes, with a greater capacity to deal with it comparatively.

Hate to be picky, but we've got about 9 times your population.

We also have a GNP of 25.6 trillion $US, about 12 times your 2.06 trillion $US.

Our national debt is about $US 36 trillion, about 24 times your $US 1.5 trillion.

Spin it however you want, but that's the reality. Nine times your population, 12 times your GNP, 24 times your debt.

 

[pgs]

Hate to be picky, but we've got about 9 times your population.

We also have a GNP of 25.6 trillion $US, about 12 times your 2.06 trillion $US.

Our national debt is about $US 36 trillion, about 24 times your $US 1.5 trillion.

Spin it however you want, but that's the reality. Nine times your population, 12 times your GNP, 24 times your debt.

And that is why Trump should drain the swamp . I wish him luck .

 

[Serryah]

Hate to be picky, but we've got about 9 times your population.

We also have a GNP of 25.6 trillion $US, about 12 times your 2.06 trillion $US.

Our national debt is about $US 36 trillion, about 24 times your $US 1.5 trillion.

Spin it however you want, but that's the reality. Nine times your population, 12 times your GNP, 24 times your debt.

Shh... you're talking sense, logic and facts.

Jin's allergic to all that, remember.

 

[Jinentonix]

Hate to be picky, but we've got about 9 times your population.

We also have a GNP of 25.6 trillion $US, about 12 times your 2.06 trillion $US.

Our national debt is about $US 36 trillion, about 24 times your $US 1.5 trillion.

Spin it however you want, but that's the reality. Nine times your population, 12 times your GNP, 24 times your debt.

Okay, let's take it back to the whole Canada vs Finland and Denmark argument for perspective.
Canada has about 7 times the population of Denmark and 8 times the population of Finland.

Canada has a GNP of $2.06T. Denmark's is $98.6B and Finland's is $295B.

Canada's national debt is $1.5T or 75% (roughly) of GDP. Denmark's debt is $25.7B translating to 33.6% of its GDP. While Finland's debt is $235B translating to around 77% of GDP.
Yet they both have better equipped militaries than Canada.

And then finally we got "big" military news in Canada. We finished building the largest navy ship built in Canada's history. Aaaand it's another fucking supply ship. Yep, the HMCS Timbit will take over from the HMCS Flapjack. We're a three-ocean country with a Great Lakes navy (barely) and we're building fucking supply ships and acting like it's a major achievement. It's not like I'm expecting nuclear subs or something but at least build a naval vessel that's actually armed with something other than syrup guns and Timbit cannons.

 

[Jinentonix]

Oh those funny Ruzzian propagandists make me laugh. They keep talking like Ruzzia is the only country with nukes or something. In that regard they are badly outgunned. First off, France and Britain have around 500 nukes between them. Not nearly as many as Ruzzia but enough to make a stupid move by Ruzzia very painful for Ruzzia.
The US is alleged to have around 5700 nukes. Ruzzia has, or rather had around 5500. Around 1200 of those have been decommissioned or are slated to be. The majority of the remaining warheads are still Soviet era however and its highly questionable just what condition they are in. In 2023 Ruzzia spent just $20 billion more on its entire military budget than the US spent on nuke maintenance alone.
Three quarters of Ruzzia's nukes are small yield tactical nukes while about 3/4 of American nukes are large yield strategic nukes. It's not a gamble Ruzzia can win.

On the other hand, another amusing group in Moscow held a "March on Washington" parade. Yep, they wanna send troops to the US to march on Washington D.C.
I mean assuming they can get past the most powerful navy in the world, the 1st and 2nd largest air forces in the world and a powerful army there's still around 100 million armed American civilians. So yeah, good luck with that march. They'd have a better chance slapping on some home-made wings and flying to the moon with them.