Federal government asking RCMP to ban use of sponge rounds, CS gas for crowd control

spaminator

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Federal government asking RCMP to ban use of sponge rounds, CS gas for crowd control
Author of the article:Canadian Press
Canadian Press
David Fraser
Published Feb 04, 2023 • 4 minute read
The federal government says it wants the RCMP to ban the use of two crowd-control tools that forces across the country say they have in their arsenals: sponge rounds and CS gas.
OTTAWA — The federal government says it wants the RCMP to ban the use of two crowd-control tools that forces across the country say they have in their arsenals: sponge rounds and CS gas.


Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino’s office confirmed that it wants the measures outlawed, even as the RCMP declines to say whether or not it will comply with that instruction.


The decision to restrict even the use of “less lethal” alternatives to crowd-control tools such as rubber bullets and stronger forms of tear gas has some critics questioning whether the federal Liberals are playing politics with policing.

“Removing less lethal options from our members’ available options raises real concerns for public and police officer safety,” National Police Union president Brian Sauve said in a statement.

The confirmation that the federal Liberals want the tools banned comes after The Canadian Press raised questions about a mandate letter Mendicino gave to RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki last year.


The letter directed the force to stop using three use-of-force methods: the “carotid control” neck hold, rubber bullets and tear gas.

The RCMP made headlines recently when it confirmed that it still allows officers to use the controversial neck hold despite those instructions and the fact that other police forces have stopped using it.

The force does not use rubber bullets or the more-dangerous chemical compounds referred to as tear gas, which cause irritation to a person’s eyes and mucous membranes.

But the minister’s office is now clarifying that it wants similar tools banned, too.

Mendicino’s office said in a statement that it used the terms “rubber bullets” and “tear gas” in the mandate letter “as they are general language understood by most Canadians.”


It confirmed that it considers the milder CS gas and extended-range impact weapons, which fire foam rounds, to be the operational terms for such tools — meaning that it does want the RCMP to stop using them.

That came as news to Sauve and other experts, who say that the decision is a departure from existing policy, since police forces across the country and around the world have such crowd-control methods in their arsenals.

The RCMP said in a statement that it is “working with partners, stakeholders and bargaining agents” to review the mandate letter — and gave no indication that it intends to follow Mendicino’s orders.

“The RCMP continues to report publicly on our use of police intervention options, including the carotid control technique and the 40 millimetre extended range impact weapon that fires sponge-tipped rounds, not rubber bullets, as well as the use of specialty munitions,” it said.


It added that its extended range weapons, in use since 2017, “provide an officer with more time and distance from an individual being responded to in order to better enable de-escalation and communication, when tactically feasible.”

Public disclosures show that the RCMP used CS gas 102 times in 2021, and it used extended-range impact weapons 86 times.

The public order units of major municipal police forces, including in Vancouver and Toronto, confirmed to The Canadian Press that they also have access to the tools.

In an interview, Western University criminologist Michael Arntfield argued that CS gas is “entirely different” than the compounds typically referred to as tear gas, and sponge rounds are different than rubber bullets.


He said tear and rubber bullets are “very inflammatory terms,” bringing up images of coups d’etat, or of police attacking people who had been marching for Black civil rights outside Selma, Ala., in 1965.

“I’m not sure why those terms would be used if the government was serious about looking at less lethal alternatives.”

Arntfield said he is “genuinely confounded” about why Mendicino would “tack on” a request for the RCMP to stop using police tools that are commonplace across Canada in asking them to stop using the neck hold.

“It looks like political theatre and has absolutely nothing to do with law enforcement operations.”

On Parliament Hill this week, Mendicino said broadly that there is a need to reform law enforcement institutions.

“We are closely consulting and collaborating with law enforcement and experts in the area to take an evidence-based approach so that we can keep our community safe, while at the same time making sure that police have the tools they need when it comes to de-escalating,” Mendicino said.

But he would not answer questions about why the RCMP seems to be defying his instructions, walking away from reporters when the question was posed.

El Jones, an activist who helped lead a study on defunding police forces, says police are “an unaccountable force in Canada.”

The fact that the RCMP is not following political direction shows that impunity, she argued. “I think the police are very much signalling to us, no one can tell us what to do.”

The issue of which tools are and aren’t available to police is receiving heightened attention following the killing of Tyre Nichols, who died after being beaten by police in Memphis, Tenn., in early January.

The “carotid control” neck hold, which the RCMP reported it used 14 times in 2021, had been widely condemned after George Floyd was killed when a Minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck for more than nine minutes.

Jones said police are not transparent enough about their policies or how much training they provide for officers when it comes to the use of force.

“We don’t have good use-of-force study in Canada,” she said. “The picture of use of force in Canada, period, by the police, is just not very clear.”
 

Ron in Regina

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So….the RCMP with no civilian oversight board is answerable to Lucki in the role she plays, & Lucki is answerable to Mendicino in the role he plays, & Mendicino is answerable to Parliament (=Team Justin/Jagmeet). That’s the chain.

(Commissioner Brenda Lucki, under the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, and direction of the Minister of Public Safety, has the control and management of the RCMP)

Can someone explain why the RCMP isn’t playing the game as it’s set out for them in the RCMP Act? Who is the RCMP answerable to? Their Union & nobody else on their own initiative in defiance of Parliament? Is that whats happening here?

Although the RCMP polices at the municipal, provincial and federal levels, it is a national police service and is ultimately accountable through the federal public safety minister to Parliament.

The RCMP said in a statement that it is “working with partners, stakeholders and bargaining agents” to review the mandate letter — and gave no indication that it intends to follow Mendicino’s orders. ???

“But he (Mendicino) would not answer questions about why the RCMP seems to be defying his instructions, walking away from reporters when the question was posed.” How ‘bout dem apples?

Theories anyone?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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So….the RCMP with no civilian oversight board is answerable to Lucki in the role she plays, & Lucki is answerable to Mendicino in the role he plays, & Mendicino is answerable to Parliament (=Team Justin/Jagmeet). That’s the chain.

(Commissioner Brenda Lucki, under the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, and direction of the Minister of Public Safety, has the control and management of the RCMP)

Can someone explain why the RCMP isn’t playing the game as it’s set out for them in the RCMP Act? Who is the RCMP answerable to? Their Union & nobody else on their own initiative in defiance of Parliament? Is that whats happening here?

Although the RCMP polices at the municipal, provincial and federal levels, it is a national police service and is ultimately accountable through the federal public safety minister to Parliament.

The RCMP said in a statement that it is “working with partners, stakeholders and bargaining agents” to review the mandate letter — and gave no indication that it intends to follow Mendicino’s orders. ???

“But he (Mendicino) would not answer questions about why the RCMP seems to be defying his instructions, walking away from reporters when the question was posed.” How ‘bout dem apples?

Theories anyone?
As objects approach the speed of stupid (relative to the observer), their size decreases toward zero and their mass increases toward infinite.

Just a theory, mind. I call it "Special Dumbativity."
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Here's another one. Credit Robert Heinlein.

"The intelligence of a committee (or any other decision-making body. -me) is the intelligence of the stupidest person on the committee divided by the number of people on the committee."
 
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The_Foxer

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It's just more posturing. I suspect that because many 'protest friendly' orgs expressed concerns about the gov'ts use of the emergency act to go after protesters they're trying to look 'protester friendly'. They're probably talking to groups like BLM who would naturally be concerned the police had such tools and they're looking like they're on their side.

And if the CPC stand up for the cops having this stuff, they can point and say "See? The CPC wants to gas and 'rubber bullet' protesters! They're anti-protest!"
 

Tecumsehsbones

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It's just more posturing. I suspect that because many 'protest friendly' orgs expressed concerns about the gov'ts use of the emergency act to go after protesters they're trying to look 'protester friendly'. They're probably talking to groups like BLM who would naturally be concerned the police had such tools and they're looking like they're on their side.

And if the CPC stand up for the cops having this stuff, they can point and say "See? The CPC wants to gas and 'rubber bullet' protesters! They're anti-protest!"
True. Pro-protest would be hot lead.

Preferably .30-06. It's the Kent State standard.

Or. . . it being Canada and all: "The police line advanced upon the rioters, hurling plush toys and courteous pleasantries."
 

The_Foxer

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True. Pro-protest would be hot lead.
Wellllllll ..... strangely gunning down protesters is still seen as 'anti protest' in the eyes of many :)

But honestly the higher ups in protest groups wouldn't mind it too much -the media attention, the public outrage, the sympathy for their org, etc etc. They could milk it for years and in fact many have where there have been deaths.

Seizing bank accounts tho.... seizing assets and going after anyone who donates.... that's a bit of a different story. That kind of thing could REALLY hurt an org.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Wellllllll ..... strangely gunning down protesters is still seen as 'anti protest' in the eyes of many :)

But honestly the higher ups in protest groups wouldn't mind it too much -the media attention, the public outrage, the sympathy for their org, etc etc. They could milk it for years and in fact many have where there have been deaths.

Seizing bank accounts tho.... seizing assets and going after anyone who donates.... that's a bit of a different story. That kind of thing could REALLY hurt an org.
Pourquois? Protests are supposed to get attention, right? Nothing like gunning down a few protesters to get attention, wall-to-wall news coverage, questions in Parliament, and endless whimpering on the internet.

Yep, ya get after their money, yer hittin' 'em where they live.
 

The_Foxer

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Nothing like gunning down a few protesters to get attention,
Well if you read what i said i noted the higher ups probably feel that way to be honest. They don't likely WANT their people killed but if they are.. well, that's not going to be BAD for business is it.

But the average Canadian (or even the average protester) isn't interested in people getting shot in the streets and would find that pretty horrific.

As you say tho, the money is where they live :)
 

Tecumsehsbones

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But. . . but. . . wutabout Daddy Justin pertecktin' Da Peepul from scary bouncy castles?

Surely it's worth a body count to perteckt Da Peepul from DANGEROUS ANARCHISTS and suchlike lawbreakers.

Or you can go with the plush toys and polite phrases.
 
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The_Foxer

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But. . . but. . . wutabout Daddy Justin pertecktin' Da Peepul from scary bouncy castles?
See, THAT"S what bullets are for :) LOL

The problem is that the first nations and others are a little concerned that a conservative gov't might claim they had bouncy castles at one of their protests.
Surely it's worth a body count to perteckt Da Peepul from DANGEROUS ANARCHISTS and suchlike lawbreakers.
Well obviosuly but they're pretty sure that conservatives would shoot back if you started to gun them down. And they own a lot more bullets and guns than the Canadian military does right now.
Or you can go with the plush toys and polite phrases.
The usual legal remedies should do nicely :) But - the police do need crowd control devices for when things are getting a little out of hand.

So trying to 'disarm' the police makes no sense, OTHER than it makes certain protest groups happy.
 

The_Foxer

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Well, ya can't say it ain't traditional. . .
Cops are always prepared to kill people. That's why they carry guns. But - if they CAN they prefer less lethal responses if possible. As they did in 2019 as per your article.

So it's traditional for them to be PREAPRED to shoot people. But it's not traditional for them to do so as a rule, the tradition is to look for non lethal or less lethal solutions first. And for some reason ottawa wants to take some of those options off the table.
 

Ron in Regina

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It's just more posturing. I suspect that because many 'protest friendly' orgs expressed concerns about the gov'ts use of the emergency act to go after protesters they're trying to look 'protester friendly'. They're probably talking to groups like BLM who would naturally be concerned the police had such tools and they're looking like they're on their side.

And if the CPC stand up for the cops having this stuff, they can point and say "See? The CPC wants to gas and 'rubber bullet' protesters! They're anti-protest!"
Well, the RCMP have been posturing on this one for about a year now it seems…