Who gives to Charity?

bluebyrd35

Council Member
Aug 9, 2008
2,373
0
36
Ormstown.Chat.Valley
Try learning a bit about the differences between Commmun...ism and social.....ism. The first is mostly aways a dictatorship run by and for someone like Putin or Lenin etc. Everyone except the top crooks are the taxpayers with no or few benefits except for keeping the population in decent shape, as cheap labour., and too brow beaten to revolt. Socalism is as much as possible giving back a goodly share of the country's profits to those who pay the taxes. It is generally speaking an elected sometimes democratic society. Those two definitions are basically it.

Rantng and lumping whole peoples, religious and/or political, trade, gender or color together under one label is biased. Much like blamng all people with Dan as a first name as stupid,,,,
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
36
Geez one would think Canada is a poor nation with a terrible standard of living!! The difference between Liberals and conservatives is perfectly obvious from the names.
Liberals are generous sometimes to a fault ... they actually feel that those who pay taxes should benefit from the spending of them. Also they tend to feel giving those less fortunate than ourselves a helping hand is a good thing.

Conservatives usually feel the top 1,2,or 3 percent of the richest should pay little or no taxes. They certainly prefer little or no health care for those who pay the taxes and certainly the last Conservative elected here was gender biased and would of restricted birth control and remove abortion access if he could have!! However, since women have a say he prudently backed off.

Every time the Conservatives get elected they spend us into war or poverty and it takes a Liberal as long to get the economy back on track.

Whch party traditional cuts back as many of the social services it dares?? Conservatives!! Do you enjoy watching the Conservative/Republican now busily destroying every program set out by the previous Liberal/Demcratic government it followed??

My opinion of some contributors to this forum plumettes?sp.daily What is the matter with you people!!






OH POOR STUPIDLY OBLIVIOUS Bluebyrdie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why dont you check up on living conditions at a typical native reserve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Even the United Nations and Our idiot Boy Justin agree that life in a place like Kashechewan is THIRD WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


People in Atiwapiskat- its up the coast from Kashechewan....................................


with people in Atiwapsikat living in tents and tar paper shacks while the band council led by Teresa Spence BURNED THROUGH $150 million dollars of tax money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WITHOUT BUILDING A SINGLE HOUSE............................................


AND WITHOUT LEAVING BEHIND A SINGLE RECEIPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


To show where that money went!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And what of the MULTIPLE reserves that go 20 - 30 years at a stretch under "boil water" advisories?????????????????


The water plants ARE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


its just that NOBODY with a decent education or half a chance in life WANTS to live on a reserve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There are THREE reserves in north western Ontari-owe got away from boiling water AFTER TWENTY YEARS....................


simply because a local guy graduated from high school.............................


and went to college..............................


and GOT his certificate....................................



and came back home and FIRED UP the water treatment plants that had been SITTING MOTH BALLED for lack of a skilled operator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Or check up on life in a typical Toronto Housing Authority SLUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Crime is at third world ghetto rates..............................


TCHC has about 3 percent of the Toronto population but has 30 percent of all the murders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Bed Bugs and cockroaches.....................................


Mice and Rats.....................................


Drug deals and hookers all over................................................................


The amount of rent going unpaid is SOARING because staff are TOO AFRAID to ask for what is owed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And LIE-beral govt is too afraid to confront drug dealing dead beats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The elevators are often broken meaning elderly people are trapped on upper floors..............................


to sick to walk out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The heat and power often fail in the cold................................


There have been several major fires and a couple of FATALITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There are plumbing leaks...........................


meaning when your upstairs tenant FLUSHES...................................


there is LIQUID showing up in your cupboards and ceilings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The local govt meaning Jackass John the Sorry Tory is routinely BULLIED by local gangs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just like the figureheads in third world govts that PRETEND to be democratic for the media suckers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Meaning that everything the Jackass says has to be vetted and approved FIRST by union Hogs and by Black Lives Matter and ANTIFA THUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The LAST TIME a Toronto mayor spoke unscripted was way back in Mel Lastman days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Lastman was UNWISE enough to state that Toronto fire dept staff take more sick days than any other fire dept in North America!!!!!!!!!!!


And the HOGS ROASTED HIM FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lastman WAS NOT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


HE WAS ONLY INCAUTIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And so he accepted the roasting and kept his mouth shut in future AND KEPT his voter support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And along the way - Toronto union Hog garbage collectors got JOBS FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



If all that kind of stuff aint third world I dont know what you would call it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



AS I have said before................................


life is easy for the HOGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But LESS SO for ordinary Cdns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But our resident Bluebyrdie knows NOTHING ABOUT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

bluebyrd35

Council Member
Aug 9, 2008
2,373
0
36
Ormstown.Chat.Valley
https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/

Bombardier did well for it's investors as well as for our governments.

I invested in them for my retirement fund and I am still after many years still collecting, albit a rather small amount from those shares, but they performed much better than many others.

Surely you realize the relationship between Bombardier and the Quebec and Federal government was fairly open. As to Lavallin I know nothing about them. I will
look into them when I get a chance. By the way I invested in Weed finally just before Xmas and those shares have tripled. So, when my country helps out a stru ggling company in the hopes of helping our struggling companies to compete on the world market I applaud them when they make good. Sometimes when they do not do that well, as long as when it shows plainly it is not a success they do not wait too long before withdrawing their support.

Some industries need government support. I do not object to our government supporting space exploration, even if there is never any monetary benefit. Furthering human knowledge is important to most of u s.




Howeve rbribery and stupidiity are not accceptable.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
I give to heaps.
Kia Ora Gaza.
SPCA
Downs syndrome Lunch
Sally Ann stuff
INTERNATIONAL CLEARING HOUSE
USA NO !


Why the hell would you donate money to any land run by genocidal terrorists? Especially when the people elected them? Albeit 14 years ago...........


That's the great thing about electing Islamists.



You only have to do it once.


https://shalom.kiwi/2015/11/kia-ora-gaza-is-a-hate-group/


This is NOT a charity.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Last edited:

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
Whch party traditional cuts back as many of the social services it dares?? Conservatives!! Do you enjoy watching the Conservative/Republican now busily destroying every program set out by the previous Liberal/Demcratic government it followed??
As a matter of fact I do. Especially since so many of those programs are expensive, over administered and do little for the people they are advertised as helping. The rule of thumb is 60% of program spending is eaten up in administration. or those of you leftys that are mathamatically dysfunctional this means that for every $10 of taxpayers money earmarked for every social program $6 of it is taken by bureaucraps. Right up there with many of the international chrities.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
Try learning a bit about the differences between Commmun...ism and social.....ism. The first is mostly aways a dictatorship run by and for someone like Putin or Lenin etc. Everyone except the top crooks are the taxpayers with no or few benefits except for keeping the population in decent shape, as cheap labour., and too brow beaten to revolt. Socalism is as much as possible giving back a goodly share of the country's profits to those who pay the taxes. It is generally speaking an elected sometimes democratic society. Those two definitions are basically it.
Rantng and lumping whole peoples, religious and/or political, trade, gender or color together under one label is biased. Much like blamng all people with Dan as a first name as stupid,,,,
A socialist is just a communist in an Armini suit.
And if socialism is giving back the profits to the taxpayers why is it that I pay a huge tax bill every year while my freeloading neighbour pays no taxes but collects both money and free services fro the government?
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
113
Vancouver Island
https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/
Bombardier did well for it's investors as well as for our governments.
I invested in them for my retirement fund and I am still after many years still collecting, albit a rather small amount from those shares, but they performed much better than many others.
Surely you realize the relationship between Bombardier and the Quebec and Federal government was fairly open. As to Lavallin I know nothing about them. I will
look into them when I get a chance. By the way I invested in Weed finally just before Xmas and those shares have tripled. So, when my country helps out a stru ggling company in the hopes of helping our struggling companies to compete on the world market I applaud them when they make good. Sometimes when they do not do that well, as long as when it shows plainly it is not a success they do not wait too long before withdrawing their support.
Some industries need government support. I do not object to our government supporting space exploration, even if there is never any monetary benefit. Furthering human knowledge is important to most of u s.
Howeve rbribery and stupidiity are not accceptable.
The only reason Bombardier exists is because of taxpayer's money being funneled into Quebec to buy vote.
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
36
World Vision.


Minimal money spent on fund raising, maximum effect where it is needed.





The famous Yankee writer and for a number of years an African aid worker with the Peace Corps....................


Paul Theroux.............................................


who also happens to be the recipient of a NOBEL PEACE PRIZE......................................


Publicly referred to World Vision Charity in his book Dark Star Safari as: "Blurred Vision"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Theroux went on to refer to Save the Children as:



"Shave the Children"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Theroux details the extent of western charitable MEDDLING in Africa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


He took a harrowing bus ride into Mali.................over a badly washed out mountain road..............................


and then found out that it was WESTERN CHARITY that was making the MESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In older days- the Malian govt paid half a dozen men with picks and shovels to walk the several hundred Km through the mountainous stretch of dirt road.....................................


and to fill in potholes and clear drainage ditches and etc....................................


Walk in.......................and then turn and walk out.........................................


then take a break.....................................and repeat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



But a Texas millionaire.........wanting to be helpful......................................


DONATED a big new road grader to the govt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Mr Texas paid for the driver training as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So now............................Mali has a "modern" mountain road.................................


maintained by western machinery........................................



with ONE GUY driving the grader..................................


and FIVE FORMER ROAD GUYS sitting on their asses.........................


UNEMPLOYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And we all know how it HURTS to lose a govt job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Even if its only as a pothole filler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


So the govt only has to pay one local wage..............................................


but THEY MUST BUY diesel fuel for the grader in hard western currency...................................


AND they must pay in western currency for assorted grader parts as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The GOVT IS OUT OF POCKET on this charity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the WORST of it is this: THE ROAD IS IN WORSE SHAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Six guys on foot hand shoveled land slide dirt off the roads.........................


AND they dumped the rubble clear of the drainage ditches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Thus LIMITING further land slides, erosion and flooding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But the road grader.......................................


mindlessly thumping along.......................................


too often FILLS the drainage ditches with rubble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And makes the flooding and erosion WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


WELCOME to the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where NOTHING WORKS EXACTLY AS PLANNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
36
https://globalnews.ca/news/3773916/bombardier-boeing-subsidies/

Bombardier did well for it's investors as well as for our governments.

I invested in them for my retirement fund and I am still after many years still collecting, albit a rather small amount from those shares, but they performed much better than many others.

Surely you realize the relationship between Bombardier and the Quebec and Federal government was fairly open. As to Lavallin I know nothing about them. I will
look into them when I get a chance. By the way I invested in Weed finally just before Xmas and those shares have tripled. So, when my country helps out a stru ggling company in the hopes of helping our struggling companies to compete on the world market I applaud them when they make good. Sometimes when they do not do that well, as long as when it shows plainly it is not a success they do not wait too long before withdrawing their support.

Some industries need government support. I do not object to our government supporting space exploration, even if there is never any monetary benefit. Furthering human knowledge is important to most of u s.




Howeve rbribery and stupidiity are not accceptable.




Oh Bluebyrdie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What a MAROON YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes- the relationship between LIE-beral govt and Bombardier and Lavalin IS FAIRLY OPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


AS Bombardier slid into financial trouble- Our idiot Boy Justin gave them a BILLION DOLLARS of our tax money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Because LIE-berals NEED those Quebec VOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bombardier was already in serious fiscal hot water for having FAILED to deliver new street cars to Toronto Transit Corp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In exactly the same way that Bombardier had SCREWED over several Yankees cities who waited insane amounts of time for THEIR VEHICLES as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And Bombardier got that billion dollar gift from the idiot Boy and immediately handed out HUGE BONUSES to their senior staffers!!!!!!!


But the billion dollar GIFT DID NOT speed up delivery of desperately needed new vehicles to TTC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Subsequently...............AFTER a huge public outcry..............................


Bombardier took back the loathsome bonuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And now TTC is SHIPPING ALL ITS NEWLY DELIVERED STREET CARS BACK to Bombardier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


To have SUB STANDARD FRAME WELDS RE-DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the red ink running across Bombardier books is reportedly deeper than ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


As for Lavalin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Whom you CLAIM to know nothing about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Whats the matter???????????????????????????????


Is the tv reception in your caves GONE OUT??????????????????????????


Lavalin got into trouble with the World Bank for the scale and scope of its BRIBERY and bid rigging of contracts around the world!!!!!!!!


Subsequently somebody started looking at Lavalin contracts within Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And found MORE BID RIGGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There was also discovery of over $100 million dollars in ILLEGAL election contributions.......................................


meaning MORE BRIBERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The Quebec provincial Charboneau Inquiry launched an investigation...........................


and came to a deal with Lavalin...................................


with Lavalin paying a one hundred thousand dollar penalty on their election bribery WITHIN QUEBEC ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The whole battle over Jody Wilson-Raybould and Philpot...............................


is what sort of penalty Lavali should suffer for its bribery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Our idiot Boy would be satisfied with an apology from Lavalin.......................................


JWR - as JUSTICE MINISTER of Canada..........................................


meaning CHIEF LAWYER IN CHARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Says Lavalin has broken TO MANY LAWS and it is not legal to let them off with an apology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What Our idiot Boy wants to resolve the Lavalin scandal is SHAMELESS INTERFERENCE in a court case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Our idiot Boy wants to take action that our now FIRED JUSTICE MINISTER SAYS IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And that is why Our idiot Boy FIRED the Justice Minister!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Our fired justice minister says it is ILLEGAL to let Lavalin off with only an apology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No matter HOW SINCERE it sounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


JWR got FIRED from her job as justice minister and the Ottawa political pot with its GROSSLY CORRUPT BRIBERY STEW has been bubbling merrily ever since!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And the worst of it is this: the Charbonneau Inquiry heard testimony THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE ENGINEERING FIRMS INVOLVED IN THE BRIBERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And yet ONLY Lavalin has been investigated or charged with anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And THERE is the probable reason why Our idiot Boy has let the Lavalin Mess fester for so long....................................


HE CANNOT just sweep it under the rug as the bribery is too disgusting and legally well beyond resolving with a slap on the wrist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And it seems highly likely he cannot let the full mess be exposed in court as the true extent of the rot might just cause public uproar so loud it will deafen him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A corporation that cannot survive without REGULAR doses of govt charity IS NOT WORTH SAVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The General Motors saga has PROVEN THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


With BOTH Lavalin and Bombardier apparently following the same idiot course pioneered by GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
36
Welfare companies and blind Politicians, what else does Ontario and Quebec bring to the table?




We have YOU as well MHz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


or are you already listed under Welfare?????????????????????

 

bluebyrd35

Council Member
Aug 9, 2008
2,373
0
36
Ormstown.Chat.Valley
Don't you also collect some disability due to your time under 'child labor' time that any 3rd world businessman would envy. Over here we call it 'the family farm'.

]
It always tickles me when people assume. AND no I am not going to give you my age. I had my first job at 11, not on a farm..... and I got paid for it. So what??
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
28,501
8,099
113
B.C.
Don't you also collect some disability due to your time under 'child labor' time that any 3rd world businessman would envy. Over here we call it 'the family farm'.

]
It always tickles me when people assume. AND no I am not going to give you my age. I had my first job at 11, not on a farm..... and I got paid for it. So what??
So you were mature enough at 11 , to hold a job , yet think a 16 year old who murders is to young to know what he is doing .
 

spilledthebeer

Executive Branch Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,296
4
36
Don't you also collect some disability due to your time under 'child labor' time that any 3rd world businessman would envy. Over here we call it 'the family farm'.

]
It always tickles me when people assume. AND no I am not going to give you my age. I had my first job at 11, not on a farm..... and I got paid for it. So what??


That`s nice..........................................


I had my first job at age 9...................................


delivering newspapers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But that fact has nothing to do with LIE-beral entitlements.......................................


or their FAILING AND DISGRACED POLICIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!