Could the Irish abortion referendum be the third big defeat for the liberals?
- Thread starter Blackleaf
- Start date
I'm curious, I believe you have said that you were in the american armed forces, is that correct?
Canada has no abortion laws, and I do not see, for the foreseeable future, that changing.
It should start at conception; but yes, what you propose would be an improvement over what we have now.
I was thinking the same. The Hitler's holocaust and the holocaust of the unborn have similar occult roots.
It is one of the delusions of the West that the consensus of the majority constructively discerns and in fact defines what is Good and best for society. When history will tell you the Majority often descends into the Mob.. consumed with self interest, vengeance, greed, fear and violence. And it then always consumes itself.
I keep looking for the a redoubt against that Culture of Death that permeated all of the West. Maybe its in County Donegal in the north of the Irish Republic. The only one that voted for Life. Maybe they can be a keeper of faith and reason in the oncoming fire which will devour Europe.. and us.
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I was. U.S. Air Force, specifically. Enlisted man.
Ears on the ground, mostly.
That's what I thought. As always, your opinion of your expertise considerably exceeds the reality.
You think that's original to you? Oh dear, you're not just stupid, you're also delusional.
PETER HITCHENS: Abortion treats one minority as less than human. So who's next?
By Peter Hitchens for The Mail on Sunday
3 June 2018
This is pretty much the end of Christian Europe. The old Commandment 'Thou Shalt Do No Murder' has been repealed, by the Irish vote to legalise abortion on demand.
There has always been some leeway about killing – mainly self-defence and Just War. But the great religion that formed European civilisation was always against the destruction of innocent life.
What follows isn't an argument about whether or even when abortion is right or wrong. I'll leave that to you. It is about what abortion is, and how the law works.
Oddly enough, when Britain relaxed its abortion laws 50 years ago, the issue wasn't as clear-cut as it was for Ireland last month. In the 1960s, we knew far less about unborn babies than we do now. There were no ultrasound scans.
This is pretty much the end of Christian Europe. The old Commandment 'Thou Shalt Do No Murder' has been repealed, by the Irish vote to legalise abortion on demand, writes Peter Hitchens. Pictured: Pro-choice campaigners celebrate the referendum result in Dublin
The miracles of medicine which nowadays frequently save tiny premature babies were unknown.
It was much easier for supporters of abortion to believe that unborn babies weren't really human – a belief they spread by their use of the chilly Latin word 'foetus'. They don't use Latin to describe anything else in their lives, so why do they use it in this case?
It was also possible to claim, as the legalisers did, that making abortion easier wouldn't turn it into a form of contraception.
Back in the 1960s, they argued it was all about a small number of desperate women forced against their will to have babies through no real choice of their own.
Who believes that now, when Britain has 180,000 abortions a year, many of them involving women who have undergone the procedure more than once before?
There was also a claim that there were many thousands of dangerous back-street abortions. But seek facts on this, and you will run into trouble.
At the time, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (in the British Medical Journal of April 2, 1966) said of such claims: 'These are without any secure factual foundation of which we are aware.'
They said there were, on average, 50 fatal abortion attempts each year in England and Wales. This was undoubtedly tragic and gruesome, but did it really justify legalising abortion on demand?
If Northern Ireland decides to relax its abortion laws, then the fact that Ireland has done so has no bearing on the matter at all, writes Hitchens. Pictured: Pro-choice protesters step up pressure for Northern Ireland to follow Ireland in liberalising abortion laws
Most people don't realise that before 1967 many legal abortions were already taking place in Britain (about 3,000 a year in NHS hospitals, probably many more in private clinics), just much more tightly regulated.
In short, Ireland has no real excuse for rushing to copy this country, which had taken its decision on the basis of several false assumptions, and in some ignorance of the facts about the unborn.
We went too far and still can't work out what to do about it. And Ireland had plenty of reasons to pause, or be a good deal more cautious.
But this was just as much about the overthrow of Ireland's Christian past as it was about abortion.
For good reasons and bad, much of Ireland has turned its back on its own faith.
And, like the rest of Europe, it has embraced the new religion of Selfism, whose chief commandment is 'Nobody has any right to tell me what to do with my own body'.
You can see why people might want to punish the Roman Catholic Church, which has certainly allowed and hidden sexual abuse and brutality.
But these things are not unknown in secular liberal organisations, from children's homes and old people's care homes to the BBC and the police.
The truth is that modern abortion campaigners (pro-choice pictured) are fervent dogmatists who impose their new ideology everywhere, on any excuse, writes Hitchens
Abortion has become a rallying point for the Selfist faith, a test of the new post-Christian version of virtue. How else can we explain the mad calls (many of them from 'Conservative' politicians in this country) to force Northern Ireland to follow suit?
These demands make no sense at all. The whole point of Ireland is that it is separate from the UK.
The whole point of devolved government in Stormont is that Northern Ireland makes its own rules on such things.
If Northern Ireland decides to relax its abortion laws, then the fact that Ireland has done so has no bearing on the matter at all.
The truth is that modern abortion campaigners are fervent dogmatists who impose their new ideology everywhere, on any excuse.
They know the truth about it. But they don't mind. They want a very different world from the one we grew up in, and now they are going to get it.
And once one vulnerable, voiceless minority has been classified as less than human, who will be next?
Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley (pictured with Police Federation chairman Mark Lindsay) is facing increasing pressure over the Northern Irish abortion issue
Read more: PETER HITCHENS: Abortion treats one minority as less than human. So who
By Peter Hitchens for The Mail on Sunday
3 June 2018
This is pretty much the end of Christian Europe. The old Commandment 'Thou Shalt Do No Murder' has been repealed, by the Irish vote to legalise abortion on demand.
There has always been some leeway about killing – mainly self-defence and Just War. But the great religion that formed European civilisation was always against the destruction of innocent life.
What follows isn't an argument about whether or even when abortion is right or wrong. I'll leave that to you. It is about what abortion is, and how the law works.
Oddly enough, when Britain relaxed its abortion laws 50 years ago, the issue wasn't as clear-cut as it was for Ireland last month. In the 1960s, we knew far less about unborn babies than we do now. There were no ultrasound scans.
This is pretty much the end of Christian Europe. The old Commandment 'Thou Shalt Do No Murder' has been repealed, by the Irish vote to legalise abortion on demand, writes Peter Hitchens. Pictured: Pro-choice campaigners celebrate the referendum result in Dublin
The miracles of medicine which nowadays frequently save tiny premature babies were unknown.
It was much easier for supporters of abortion to believe that unborn babies weren't really human – a belief they spread by their use of the chilly Latin word 'foetus'. They don't use Latin to describe anything else in their lives, so why do they use it in this case?
It was also possible to claim, as the legalisers did, that making abortion easier wouldn't turn it into a form of contraception.
Back in the 1960s, they argued it was all about a small number of desperate women forced against their will to have babies through no real choice of their own.
Who believes that now, when Britain has 180,000 abortions a year, many of them involving women who have undergone the procedure more than once before?
There was also a claim that there were many thousands of dangerous back-street abortions. But seek facts on this, and you will run into trouble.
At the time, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (in the British Medical Journal of April 2, 1966) said of such claims: 'These are without any secure factual foundation of which we are aware.'
They said there were, on average, 50 fatal abortion attempts each year in England and Wales. This was undoubtedly tragic and gruesome, but did it really justify legalising abortion on demand?
If Northern Ireland decides to relax its abortion laws, then the fact that Ireland has done so has no bearing on the matter at all, writes Hitchens. Pictured: Pro-choice protesters step up pressure for Northern Ireland to follow Ireland in liberalising abortion laws
Most people don't realise that before 1967 many legal abortions were already taking place in Britain (about 3,000 a year in NHS hospitals, probably many more in private clinics), just much more tightly regulated.
In short, Ireland has no real excuse for rushing to copy this country, which had taken its decision on the basis of several false assumptions, and in some ignorance of the facts about the unborn.
We went too far and still can't work out what to do about it. And Ireland had plenty of reasons to pause, or be a good deal more cautious.
But this was just as much about the overthrow of Ireland's Christian past as it was about abortion.
For good reasons and bad, much of Ireland has turned its back on its own faith.
And, like the rest of Europe, it has embraced the new religion of Selfism, whose chief commandment is 'Nobody has any right to tell me what to do with my own body'.
You can see why people might want to punish the Roman Catholic Church, which has certainly allowed and hidden sexual abuse and brutality.
But these things are not unknown in secular liberal organisations, from children's homes and old people's care homes to the BBC and the police.
The truth is that modern abortion campaigners (pro-choice pictured) are fervent dogmatists who impose their new ideology everywhere, on any excuse, writes Hitchens
Abortion has become a rallying point for the Selfist faith, a test of the new post-Christian version of virtue. How else can we explain the mad calls (many of them from 'Conservative' politicians in this country) to force Northern Ireland to follow suit?
These demands make no sense at all. The whole point of Ireland is that it is separate from the UK.
The whole point of devolved government in Stormont is that Northern Ireland makes its own rules on such things.
If Northern Ireland decides to relax its abortion laws, then the fact that Ireland has done so has no bearing on the matter at all.
The truth is that modern abortion campaigners are fervent dogmatists who impose their new ideology everywhere, on any excuse.
They know the truth about it. But they don't mind. They want a very different world from the one we grew up in, and now they are going to get it.
And once one vulnerable, voiceless minority has been classified as less than human, who will be next?
Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley (pictured with Police Federation chairman Mark Lindsay) is facing increasing pressure over the Northern Irish abortion issue
Read more: PETER HITCHENS: Abortion treats one minority as less than human. So who
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When you realize that the people who are in favor of abortions are mostly progressives......
If they don't procreate.......it's no big loss......I would even be in favor of retroactive abortion in their case
If they don't procreate.......it's no big loss......I would even be in favor of retroactive abortion in their case
Seriously? This clown thinks millions of dead Irish, Native Americans, Australian aborigines, Maori, and others in Britain's colonial adventures are "leeway?"