Human beings are defined by science, persons by laws. So what would stop a government from legally defining a person as a human being who has been born at least 14 days previously?
Could the Irish abortion referendum be the third big defeat for the liberals?
- Thread starter Blackleaf
- Start date
Human beings are defined by science, persons by laws. So what would stop a government from legally defining a person as a human being who has been born at least 14 days previously?
I was referring to the life of an individual human being, not that of the species to which it belongs.
It's a choice between a woman and a willing Doctor.
The peer pressure placed on the woman is intense so to call it a free choice still isn't a truth.
The peer pressure placed on the woman is intense so to call it a free choice still isn't a truth.
I regret the Irish abortion vote, but I respect it. If only Remainers would do similar
Charles Moore
27 May 2018
The Telegraph
395
A Yes event in April 2018 Credit: Clodagh Kilcoyne/Reuters
It was quite right to put such a vast constitutional question before the people
The abortion referendum result in Ireland has been widely welcomed here. The Remainers who never stop complaining about our Brexit referendum do not seem to be saying how disgraceful it is that the Irish people were allowed to choose. Their objections to “populism” and allowing people to make up their minds on very difficult subjects do not seem to apply in the case of the Republic.
Personally, I greatly regret the Irish result, because I think that, in matters of life or death, one should try to side with life; but I also think the subject was a fit one for a referendum. It is not – or should not be – a question for party politics. It concerns the country’s constitution. In the 1980s, the Irish electorate voted to put the abortion ban into their constitution. Now they have voted to take it out. That is their right. They are the best people to decide.
The same goes for Brexit. We voted to stay in what was then called the European Economic Community in 1975. We voted to leave the European Union in 2016. In both cases, a referendum was morally necessary because the leaders of the main political parties were all on one side of the argument (pro-“Europe”). The alternative view needed to have its chance. Second time round, it won.
There is another similarity between the British and the Irish experiences. It is that the decision in principle does not – indeed, cannot – frame the exact way in which the will of the people will be carried out. The Irish vote gets rid of the article in the constitution: it does not say how much abortion must now be allowed. The Brexit vote mandates us to leave the EU: it does not give orders about exactly when or how. That is for government and Parliament.
But if, as is technically possible, the result of the Irish referendum changes the constitution but does not bring in any abortion, that will flout the wishes of voters. The same applies to Brexit legislation. MPs have the legal right to vote against it, but if they end up stopping Brexit or permitting it in name only, they will have betrayed the people.
Don't impose abortion on NI
Some British ministers are now campaigning for Northern Ireland to allow abortion too. They should be careful. The government of Northern Ireland is devolved, so Westminster cannot suddenly step in and make its decisions for it – unless we re-impose direct rule, which the Government is at great pains to avoid.
The other error is a more tactical one. To argue that a change in the South demands a change in the North is not clever. The Ulster majority rarely take kindly to the thought. Indeed, their entire existence as a majority depends on the fact that they did not accept what the Republic wanted.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ish-abortion-vote-respect-remainers-would-do/
Charles Moore
27 May 2018
The Telegraph
395
A Yes event in April 2018 Credit: Clodagh Kilcoyne/Reuters
It was quite right to put such a vast constitutional question before the people
The abortion referendum result in Ireland has been widely welcomed here. The Remainers who never stop complaining about our Brexit referendum do not seem to be saying how disgraceful it is that the Irish people were allowed to choose. Their objections to “populism” and allowing people to make up their minds on very difficult subjects do not seem to apply in the case of the Republic.
Personally, I greatly regret the Irish result, because I think that, in matters of life or death, one should try to side with life; but I also think the subject was a fit one for a referendum. It is not – or should not be – a question for party politics. It concerns the country’s constitution. In the 1980s, the Irish electorate voted to put the abortion ban into their constitution. Now they have voted to take it out. That is their right. They are the best people to decide.
The same goes for Brexit. We voted to stay in what was then called the European Economic Community in 1975. We voted to leave the European Union in 2016. In both cases, a referendum was morally necessary because the leaders of the main political parties were all on one side of the argument (pro-“Europe”). The alternative view needed to have its chance. Second time round, it won.
There is another similarity between the British and the Irish experiences. It is that the decision in principle does not – indeed, cannot – frame the exact way in which the will of the people will be carried out. The Irish vote gets rid of the article in the constitution: it does not say how much abortion must now be allowed. The Brexit vote mandates us to leave the EU: it does not give orders about exactly when or how. That is for government and Parliament.
But if, as is technically possible, the result of the Irish referendum changes the constitution but does not bring in any abortion, that will flout the wishes of voters. The same applies to Brexit legislation. MPs have the legal right to vote against it, but if they end up stopping Brexit or permitting it in name only, they will have betrayed the people.
Don't impose abortion on NI
Some British ministers are now campaigning for Northern Ireland to allow abortion too. They should be careful. The government of Northern Ireland is devolved, so Westminster cannot suddenly step in and make its decisions for it – unless we re-impose direct rule, which the Government is at great pains to avoid.
The other error is a more tactical one. To argue that a change in the South demands a change in the North is not clever. The Ulster majority rarely take kindly to the thought. Indeed, their entire existence as a majority depends on the fact that they did not accept what the Republic wanted.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ish-abortion-vote-respect-remainers-would-do/
No you just liked what a certain group of physicians with idealogies simular to yours said in an anti abortion rag.
Too bad you don't agree, Blackshirt. To you, democracy means getting what you want.
We've had people for nearly two years now saying the EU referendum should be held again or just ignored because they don't agree with the result, but when the same is suggested of the Irish abortion referendum many of those same people start getting tetchy and saying "Democracy must be respected".
The hypocrites don't like it when the tables are turned on them.
The fact that the Irish need a referendum to bring their abortion laws in line with every other liberal democracy on Earth is shameful in itself.
IT makes you wonder how that particular representative government works.
because facts don't really matter anyway.
what counts are opinions.
IT makes you wonder how that particular representative government works.
so one the one hand a win in Ireland would have been a third big defeat for the lefties - but the loss there only validates the rights earlier wins.
because facts don't really matter anyway.
what counts are opinions.
Right, and you've just validated their hypocrisy by demanding another referendum on an issue where you have no interest, in a country where you have no say.
The British never quite got over the fact that Ireland is NOT a part of the United Kingdom.
They're a part of the EU, though. It seems that they can get along with their neighbours, after all.
Interesting, so what you are suggesting is that people that don't live in a certain country should keep their noses out of that countries business and mind their own business? Is that right?
Yep. If you look through my posts, you'll find that often, when I comment on Canadian issues, I include a clear statement that I have no say, and it's up to Canadians to decide what Canada will do.