Britain, Catalonia etc: People crave national identity

Blackleaf

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How can there be an amicable union between the EU’s nation states if some of those nations are themselves deeply divided and fractious, as is plainly the case with Catalonia and Spain?

Here is a region of largely Catalan-speaking people who regard themselves as culturally distinct. A sizeable proportion of them yearn to break free from Spain, even though Catalonia has been part of the country for hundreds of years.

Sunday’s vote illuminates a truth which Brussels cannot bear. There are many people in Europe for whom the atavistic call of identity counts far more than any exhortation about forging a European superstate...

People crave national identity: STEPHEN GLOVER on the truth that Brussels cannot bear


By Stephen Glover for the Daily Mail
3 October 2017

What happened in Catalonia on Sunday was shaming and shocking in a modern European state. Spanish police bludgeoned and assaulted defenceless civilians who were simply trying to exercise their democratic right.

First and foremost, this is a terrible crisis for the wrong-headed, bully-boy government in Madrid. After the unedifying spectacle of police attacking blameless voters, the chances must surely have increased of Catalonia – Spain’s most prosperous region with some 7.5million inhabitants – seceding.

But it is also an enormous crisis for the European Union, which in recent weeks has said almost nothing as the Spanish authorities arrested officials arranging an independence referendum on behalf of the devolved Catalan government.


Spanish National Police clashes with pro-referendum supporters in Barcelona over the unauthorised vote


While millions of European citizens were rubbing their eyes in disbelief at the state-inspired violence, the European Commission in the shape of Jean-Claude Juncker yesterday issued a short, bland statement reminding Catalans that if they left Spain they would also have to leave the EU. There were a few pious words about the inadvisability of violence.

Otherwise a disgraceful silence has reigned. We may be pretty sure that if police in Right-wing Hungary (an EU member) had battered protesters demonstrating on behalf of migrants, Juncker would have expressed his outrage at voluminous length.

One reason he did not do so in the case of Spain is that it is one of the most obedient pro-EU countries in Europe, which seldom defies the will of Brussels, or causes trouble for Juncker and his ilk.

But there is an even deeper reason for the Commission’s silence. The events in Catalonia challenge at a deep level its project for ever closer union, about which both Juncker and President Emmanuel Macron of France have ventilated in recent weeks.

For how can there be an amicable union between the EU’s nation states if some of those nations are themselves deeply divided and fractious, as is plainly the case with Catalonia and Spain?

Here is a region of largely Catalan-speaking people who regard themselves as culturally distinct. A sizeable proportion of them yearn to break free from Spain, even though Catalonia has been part of the country for hundreds of years.

Sunday’s vote illuminates a truth which Brussels cannot bear. There are many people in Europe for whom the atavistic call of identity counts far more than any exhortation about forging a European superstate.


Police officers stand guard outside National Police station in Barcelona as protesters demonstrate against the state's response to the referendum


That, after all, was one of the main messages of Brexit – that the majority of voters in our own ancient nation resent the undemocratic control of Brussels, and have no wish to be sucked into a united Europe.

For Brussels, the example of Britain was bad enough, and it has set about trying to punish us for having had the effrontery to want to leave. In a sense, the demonstration of Catalan nationalism is even more alarming to the federalists because this show of independence is happening inside one of the EU’s nation states.

How is it possible, they wonder, for the pan-European project to proceed if some EU countries are in danger of fracturing? The terror in Brussels is that if Catalonia were allowed to break away, regions in other member states could follow suit. Instead of coalescing into an amorphous whole, some EU nations might fall apart.

Belgium, whose capital, Brussels, is the seat of EU expansionism, is divided. The Flemish-speaking region of Flanders, which constitutes about 60 per cent of the country’s population, is at daggers drawn with the French-speaking minority.

Many people in northern Italy long to be rid of the impoverished south, which is relatively unproductive and, in the view of northerners, consumes more than its fair share of government spending. The Right-wing Northern League has campaigned with some success for independence for the north, and imagines a separate country called Padania.

France faces an independence movement in the island of Corsica. Meanwhile the cohesion of Spain is threatened not just by free-spirited Catalans but also by militant Basques, part of whose territory lies in France.

Romania and Slovakia both have unhappy Hungarian minorities. Even in Poland’s region of Silesia, much of which used to be ruled by Germany until 1945, there are stirrings of an independence movement.

All over Europe apparently unified countries are harried by breakaway groups which have a strong sense of separate identity. If Catalonia were allowed to go it alone, who knows what might come next?


The President of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont, had called for Brussels to act as a mediator with Madrid

The problem for Brussels is that it is used to dealing with individual nation states but is powerless to intervene in unruly regions. That is why the Commission has remained so quiet in the case of Catalonia apart from expressing a few words of solidarity with Spain.

By the way, the British response has been regrettably supine. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson stressed his support for the Spanish government in a tweet. As the leading Brexiteer he should surely have been more critical of Madrid’s use of violence.

The Spanish government, it must be said, has behaved rashly and brutishly. Arguably some Catalan separatist political parties have been unwise in deliberately engineering a confrontation.

But given that the Catalan government had made numerous requests to hold a referendum on independence – after Spain’s constitutional court had controversially declared in 2010 that Catalonia was not a nation – what was it to do having been rebuffed time and time again? If it had possessed a modicum of good sense, the Spanish government would have allowed the referendum to go ahead. Had the vote been in favour of independence, it could have then questioned its legal status.

But to arrest Catalan officials, to close a large number of polling stations, and then to clobber innocent voters were acts of unbelievable stupidity as well as nastiness.

It passes understanding how the prime minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, can say that democracy has prevailed. The opposite is true.

Imagine if two or three years hence the Scottish National Party’s Nicola Sturgeon were to hold a referendum without the approval of Westminster – by no means an unthinkable eventuality.

In fact, her case would be much weaker than that of the Catalan government since there has already been one legal referendum in Scotland in 2014, which was said by the SNP leader Alex Salmond at the time to be the last for a generation.

Even so, it is inconceivable that a new unofficial referendum in Scotland would be met by the authorities in Westminster with police wielding batons and firing rubber bullets. Such a wild over-reaction would inevitably give a boost to Scottish nationalism – as, I have no doubt, the cause of Catalan nationalism will have benefited from Sunday’s onslaught.

The truth is that the Spanish state has a very restricted conception of democracy. We should know that already from its desire to shoehorn Gibraltar into Spain despite 99 per cent of its citizens having voted in a 2002 referendum to remain British.

God alone knows what will happen now in Catalonia. Unless the Spanish government agrees to an official referendum – an unlikely prospect – there will probably be deadlock. I am afraid there is also the possibility of more violence on both sides.

Justifying and supporting the Madrid government is the European Commission in all its absurdity, dreaming dreams of a union which the people of Europe do not want. It will do its utmost to ensure that Catalonia doesn’t interfere with its grandiose scheme.

Will Remainers look at Catalonia and reflect that we have a quieter and more civilised way of dealing with our differences in this country? I don’t know. What I do know is that every day I am ever more relieved that we are leaving this misguided club.

 
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MHz

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Russian speaking people do the whole deal in about a week. You still sure double speak is such an advancement.

The citizens vote to go using the political system and the somebody with a crown says it isn't going through so shut up and go home or we will beat the crap out of you just for fun. That about sum up the right to go your own way in the Engrish language. How much did Canada gain by becoming 'independent of the English Crown's control? 5% lower tax rate to the loans from the Bank of England, all the way down to 20% whoopee fuking do
 

Blackleaf

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Coffee House

Catalonia deserves independence as much as any other state

Jeremy Norman


(Photo: Getty)

Jeremy Norman
12 October 2017
The Spectator

Few, if any, commentators have seen fit to discuss the wider issue and the underlying morality from first principles. The instant reaction in all quarters has been to back Spain over the plucky little Catalans.

The principle of national self-determination was laid down by Woodrow Wilson after the First World War and accepted by the colonial powers who unwound their empires, if somewhat reluctantly, over the next half-century. Both the League of Nations and the United Nations were founded partly to advocate for this principal. In the case of Kosovo we actually attacked Serbia for refusing the Kosovans this basic human right.

What is so different about Catalonia and the Kurds of Iraq? The world is suddenly reticent about advocating for this right and indeed seems to be backing Spain and Iraq. Even Nicola Sturgeon of the Scottish National Party, in a fit of mind-boggling cant, has refused to speak up for the poor Catalans. Of course we know why: her party’s self-interest dictates silence for fear of upsetting the EU, which she would like Scotland to join if she ever achieves independence.


The only difference in these two instances is that the break away is contained within an existing state. Why should this make a difference? We gave both the Irish and the Scots the choice. We applauded when the Soviet Union shattered into separate nation states. Why are we now so frightened of people exercising the democratic right to govern themselves?

The EU has a lot of explaining to do. Why has it not supported self-determination for Catalonia and why does it refuse to accept breakaway states as immediate members of the club by continuing to recognise their existing status? It knows that by insisting that new countries re-apply, it is creating a barrier to separatism. EU countries fear independence movements close to home. As always with the EU, morality gives way to pragmatism and self-interest.

Spain presents a particularly interesting case; it comprises a number of national identities including the Basques and the Catalans. It has vigorously opposed the right of Gibraltar to decide its own future while at the same time refusing plebiscites in its two remaining colonies in North Africa, Ceuta and Melilla, which form a natural part of Morocco. Spain’s hypocrisy on this issue is seldom referred to or used against them by Britain in defending Gibraltar. It seems that when Spain is affected it does not support democracy.

Spain maintains that the Catalonian referendum was illegal, therefore the result is unsound. If they believe so then let them hold an official referendum that can be internationally monitored. It will not agree because it knows the result would go against its wishes.

People claim that a 92.01 percent vote in favour (2,044,038 votes) on a turnout of 43.03 percent makes a majority against. The largest recent UK turnout was 72.2 percent in the EU referendum. So if we assume a similar turnout in Catalonia with an electorate of 5.163 million and posit that all who did not vote Yes in this referendum would have voted No, then only 1.63 million could possibly have voted No. Whichever way you analyse the result you get a majority in favour of independence from Spain. It has to be an agreed principal that those who do not vote in an election don’t count. Spain can’t just assume that if 40 percent voted in favour 60 percent are against.

Spain has already indicated that it will not discuss this issue and so it means that Catalonia will be forced to act on its declaration of independence. What will Spain do then? If it tries to use force, an unconscionable crisis will unfold. Talk of companies having moved out of the area is misleading; all that some companies have done is to move their headquarters but not their businesses. Catalonia is the richest area in Spain and can easily survive alone just as we can and will after Brexit. We must raise our voices in support of Catalonia.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/10/catalonia-deserves-independence-as-much-as-any-other-state/
 
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coldstream

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Oct 19, 2005
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Catalonia declared independance from Spain today, sighting a referendum which was declared illegal by Spain, and which 57% of the electorate either boycotted or ignored. Its declaration barely passed its own legislature, receiving 70 of 134 votes.

Spain immediately invoked a Constitutional article and declared federal rule of the region (already recognized as an autonomous 'nation' within the Spanish Republic), disbandonment of its legislature and the takeover of powers of police and its civil and political administration.

This was a result, imho of the devolution of the nation state into some kind of abstraction and convenience. Catalonia was emboldened by the prospect that it would gain entry to the EU and retain all of the privileges of an EU partner.

The EU did not give any assurances or encouragement to this as it raises the potential for regions like Scotland, Flanders, Lombardy, Galacia, Silesia and many other old Duchies and Principalities would seek similar unilateral independence as autonomous states in the EU construct if they feel they could benefit economically from such.

Inevitably the alternative of the nation state is the tribe narrowly defined by blood, language, religion. It promotes ethnic purity over the common responsibility of a nation state. There is absolutely no assurance that Catalonia with such a marginal mandate will not face separatist movements within its own precincts of regions who wish to remain part of Spain even in the unlikely event that this prevails.

All this a sign of fragmentation into special interests of the Global Free Market. All borders and sovereignty have become moot. Nations disintegrate into self serving interests groups.

No movement like this succeeds without resort to armed rebellion. And it looks like Catalonia is almost evenly divided between separatists and federalists. The potential that this will explode into violence seems real. And my guess is might be a harbinger for Europe and the Americas as federal states dissolve under the globalist agenda. .
 
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Blackleaf

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Catalonia declared independance from Spain today, sighting a referendum which was declared illegal by Spain, and which 57% of the electorate either boycotted or ignored.

The turnout in the referendum doesn't really matter. What matters is the number of people who voted one way or the other - and 92.01% of those who voted voted for independence. Even if 100% of eligible voters voted, there still would have had to have been a swing of 43% the other way for them to have voted against independence.

Its declaration barely passed its own legislature, receiving 70 of 134 votes.
But passed it it did.
 

justlooking

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May 19, 2017
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The turnout in the referendum doesn't really matter. What matters is the number of people who voted one way or the other - and 92.01% of those who voted voted for independence. Even if 100% of eligible voters voted, there still would have had to have been a swing of 43% the other way for them to have voted against independence.

But passed it it did.


What matters is the referendum was illegal.

What matters is no one in the EU will support the result of the illegal referendum.

What matters is Spain will never let Catalonia go. Not without thousands of dead in the streets.

"70 of 134"
It is time to recognize that massive social change should not be done on the back of a 50% plus one vote.
That includes Quebec.
That includes Scotland.
And yes it includes Brexit.
 

Blackleaf

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What matters is the referendum was illegal.

I don't think that bothers the Catalonians too much.

What matters is no one in the EU will support the result of the illegal referendum.
No doubt that great beacon of democracy that is the EU will just do what it usually does when referenda results don't go its way - it'll probably try and force the Catalonians to hold the referendum again and hope they vote the "right" way this time, like they've done in the past with the Irish, Dutch and French.

What matters is Spain will never let Catalonia go. Not without thousands of dead in the streets.
Spain, like many countries in mainland Europe, still hasn't quite got the hand of this whole democracy thing. Still, give the Spanish their dues - they've only been one for the last 40 years or so.

"70 of 134"
It is time to recognize that massive social change should not be done on the back of a 50% plus one vote.
That includes Quebec.
That includes Scotland.
And yes it includes Brexit.
Oh yeah. Just forget about democracy and the will of the people. Things should NOT be decided on the votes of the majority of the people! That can never do in the 21st Century.
 

justlooking

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I don't think that bothers the Catalonians too much.

It might bother the other 50% of the people who don't want to separate.


No doubt that great beacon of democracy that is the EU will just do what it usually does when referenda results don't go its way - it'll probably try and force the Catalonians to hold the referendum again and hope they vote the "right" way this time, like they've done in the past with the Irish, Dutch and French.
New elections Dec 21. I predict many independence candidates will be sitting in jail, while the
correct Catalan vote is calculated in Madrid and Brussels.

Spain, like many countries in mainland Europe, still hasn't quite got the hand of this whole democracy thing. Still, give the Spanish their dues - they've only been one for the last 40 years or so.
Pretty sure it's the Marxist leftist scum in Barcelona organizing the agitation that don't understand democracy.
If they did, they wouldn't hold an illegal referendum.
And then would not try to extrapolate the result of an illegal referendum
into a 'mandate for independence'.


Oh yeah. Just forget about democracy and the will of the people. Things should NOT be decided on the votes of the majority of the people! That can never do in the 21st Century.
Aww, so quick to butthurt.
50% plus one vote only creates more intense divisions on an issue.
Serious change should have a higher standard.
Constitutional changes in the US and Canada need much more than a simple majority to be changed.
 
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Blackleaf

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It might bother the other 50% of the people who don't want to separate.

92% of people voted for independence.

And not everyone's happy with the way referenda and elections go. That's democracy for you. There's always a losing side. According to your logic, if 50% of people are unhappy separating then there'll be 50% of people who'd be unhappy staying.

New elections Dec 21. I predict many independence candidates will be sitting in jail, while the
correct Catalan vote is calculated in Madrid and Brussels.
It's already been calculated - 92% voted for independence.

Pretty sure it's the Marxist leftist scum in Barcelona organizing the agitation that don't understand democracy.
If they did, they wouldn't hold an illegal referendum.
So holding a referendum means not understanding democracy? That's some logic.

Aww, so quick to butthurt.
50% plus one vote only creates more intense divisions on an issue.
Serious change should have a higher standard.
Constitutional changes in the US and Canada need much more than a simple majority to be changed.
It's funny how, in Britain's EU referendum, the Remainers keep coming out with the guff: "The referendum has left Britain deeply divided." I wonder if they'd be saying that had it gone 52%-48% in favour of staying in the godforsaken EU.
 

Danbones

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Catalonia was a land and a people before Spain was.
( remember what Spain did in the new world?: PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT MORALS)

They took their "possessions" through decree and force of arms and justified it all with a gawd that doesn't exist.
But people who voted to be independent of that don't understand democracy.
;)
hmmm.

The EU is as far from democracy as you can get.
 

justlooking

Council Member
May 19, 2017
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Catalonia was a land and a people before Spain was.
( remember what Spain did in the new world?: PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT MORALS)

They took their "possessions" through decree and force of arms and justified it all with a gawd that doesn't exist.
But people who voted to be independent of that don't understand democracy.
;)
hmmm.

Nope.
Marriage.
As was usual for the time.
 

Danbones

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Marriage took the new world?
news to me

Other then that, what you just said is about alliances between territories,
NOT about conquering territory, and so is also incorrect, or improperly applied.
:)

The territory that now constitutes the autonomous community of Catalonia in Spain was first settled during the Middle Palaeolithic era

The area that is now Catalonia was the first area of Hispania conquered by the Romans

In 718, the area was occupied by the Moors and became a part of Muslim ruled al-Andalus. The Frankish Empire conquered the area from the Muslims, beginning with the conquest of Roussillon in 760 and ending with the conquest of Barcelona in 801, as part of the creation of a larger buffer zone of Christians against Islamic rule counties known as the Marca Hispanica.

In time, the Christians took control of the region thanks not just to the Franks and their Spanish March but also to the Kingdom of Aragon which would govern those lands from that point onwards administrated by the Count of Barcelona for the King of Aragon, the Crown of Aragon.

The County of Barcelona did contribute to develop further the Aragonese military most significantly their naval power and as part of the Kingdom of Aragon the Catalan language flourished and expanded southwards as more territories were added to Aragon like Valencia, the Balearic Islands, and later into Sardinia, Sicily, Naples and, briefly, Athens.

The kingdom of Aragon was benevolent, with the language spoken by the Catalan minority and their culture developed further in the Middle Ages. The Kings of Aragon permitted Catalonia to exist within their realm for which the Counts of Barcelona were very grateful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia

Don't see the word marriage once
what follows is more
They took their "possessions" through decree and force of arms and justified it all with a gawd that doesn't exist.
But people who voted to be independent of that don't understand democracy.
 
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justlooking

Council Member
May 19, 2017
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Google the union of Aragorn and Catalonia from 1137.
Go and google the Kingdom of Castille and the Kingdom of Aragorn, 1469.
And then the formal unification in 1715.
 

Curious Cdn

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Britain, Catalonia etc: People crave national identity Scotland, Wales, Cornwall ...

Google the union of Aragorn and Catalonia from 1137.
Go and google the Kingdom of Castille and the Kingdom of Aragorn, 1469.
And then the formal unification in 1715.
That's Aragon, btw. Aragorn is the son of Arathorn and the last of the line of Isidur.
 

Blackleaf

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So do people in other English counties like Yorkshire and Cumbria (which has its own Celtic language) and in other parts of the UK like Shetland. I dont know why there persists a myth that Cornwall is somehow a nation with its own identity when far bigger counties like Yorkshire - which has a bigger GDP than 11 European countries - also have their own identity and culture. All English counties have their own cultures and traditions and there's nothing to distinguish Cornwall from the rest.

The place with the biggest claim in the UK to break away from its host nation is Shetland from Scotland.