The Atheists' Case for Fighting Poverty

[Tecumsehsbones]

Well, i suppose if we are going to get all particular - socialism is government ownership of buisness/industries rather ownership by private citizens. I would go beyond that definition to include the poison of entitlements, freebies, hand-outs. Don't hear what I am not saying. I do think SOME social services need to be in place for the "less fortunate".

So, what I'm hearing is you actually ARE a "socialist," you just want to quibble over exactly what level of entitlement, freebies, and hand-outs, i.e. "social services" need to be in place.

Sound about right?

As for the pope - he is WAY OFF COURSE in SOME regards. For any further discussion on the Pope I will have to dig up his discourse on capitalism - it was quite a train wreck. Does he prefer the Stalin approach? Good Grief!

So, you think pure capitalism and Stalinism are the only options?

Actually, if I recall the media focused mostly on his "captialism is tyranny" remark. There was more content to his thought than that.

Funny part is, if folk in the allegedly Christian countries followed Jesus last commandment, there'd be no need for social services.

Even funnier is that so many of the same Christians who want the Ten Commandments (or at least the one about abortion) written into the law and forced on people who don't share their beliefs somehow don't want Jesus' last commandment written into the law and forced on people who claim to be Jesus' followers.

Weird, enit?

 

[talloola]

I'm glad you recognize it's some. Just like some believers force their religion into everything they can, including the civil laws. So why should an atheist be less irritated with believers than you are with atheists?

now, thats the truth, many different types of people in atheism and religions, so a title that starts
out saying 'atheists' do this or that, is immediately irrelevent.

 

[Cliffy]

My dear Clliffy, you know not what you speak. Capitalism Good. Communism and Socialism and their relations BAD.

Jesus was a socialist and anti-capitalism - take care of the poor, ill and disadvantaged and got really pissed at the money lenders. You are a walking contradiction of what you profess to believe.

 

[cj44]

Jesus was a socialist and anti-capitalism - take care of the poor, ill and disadvantaged and got really pissed at the money lenders. You are a walking contradiction of what you profess to believe.

Uhh...Jesus was a carpenter. He was a business owner. One doesn't have to be a socialist to take care of the poor.

So, what I'm hearing is you actually ARE a "socialist," you just want to quibble over exactly what level of entitlement, freebies, and hand-outs, i.e. "social services" need to be in place.

Sound about right?



So, you think pure capitalism and Stalinism are the only options?


Funny part is, if folk in the allegedly Christian countries followed Jesus last commandment, there'd be no need for social services.

Even funnier is that so many of the same Christians who want the Ten Commandments (or at least the one about abortion) written into the law and forced on people who don't share their beliefs somehow don't want Jesus' last commandment written into the law and forced on people who claim to be Jesus' followers.

Weird, enit?

T-Bones....You have a way with my comments. A way most unusual.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Uhh...Jesus was a carpenter. He was a business owner. One doesn't have to be a socialist to take care of the poor.


T-Bones....You have a way with my comments. A way most unusual.

Somebody who claims to oppose "entitlements, freebies, and hand-outs" but supports some "social services" needs to clarify his position.

 

[cj44]

Somebody who claims to oppose "entitlements, freebies, and hand-outs" but supports some "social services" needs to clarify his position.

Government Cheese for Everyone!

Have you ever been the recipient of a block of government cheese? Those rectangular nuclear orange colored blocks - they're 4x4 and about 16 inches long. We need that government cheese program back. That will get people off the subsidies. Those blocks of cheese create an incentive to get a job. One block of cheese and you will be updating the old resume.

Let me try a T-Bones response. So, what you are saying is there should be no limits. No deadlines. Just never ending unemployment benefits, food stamps, and healthcare for everyone. Everything should be free. After all, the 1% can afford it - let them pay for everything. They are misers and capitalists and all they do is create more wealth...uh, I mean steal from the poor and they pollute the earth.

I have to stop, I am breaking out in hives for uttering such nonsense.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Government Cheese for Everyone!

Have you ever been the recipient of a block of government cheese? Those rectangular nuclear orange colored blocks - they're 4x4 and about 16 inches long. We need that government cheese program back. That will get people off the subsidies. Those blocks of cheese provide create an incentive to get a job. One block of cheese and you will be updating the old resume.

Dozens of them. Forced to eat them too.

Let me try a T-Bones response. So, what you are saying is there should be no limits. No deadlines. Just never ending unemployment benefits, food stamps, and healthcare for everyone. Everything should be free. After all, the 1% can afford it - let them pay for everything. They are misers and capitalists and all they do is create more wealth...uh, I mean steal from the poor and they pollute the earth.

I have to stop, I am breaking out in hives for uttering such nonsense.

It's certainly nonsense. It doesn't quote anything I've ever said (where I did quote you), nor does it express anything I've ever expressed.

Probably qualifies as bearing false witness, but it's OK. You're a liar for Jesus.

 

[cj44]

Dozens of them. Forced to eat them too.


It's certainly nonsense. It doesn't quote anything I've ever said (where I did quote you), nor does it express anything I've ever expressed.

Probably qualifies as bearing false witness, but it's OK. You're a liar for Jesus.

I obviously failed at my attempt to overstate your position as you often do to other commenters. Methinks I shall try one more time...
I said I think there should be some social services, you tagged that as socialism. Certainly, a society can put in place reasonable means and preferably through not for profits, safety nets for people in need - medical, food, housing, etc. Private Sector always does it better than government. In the US our "safety nets" have turned into monstrous ways of life for people. We could debate at what point does a "safety net" become socialism - but why bother. We could come up with a great plan, but then we would have to get it through congress. I think we could at least agree on melting down all the government cheese so no one would have to ever again depend on it for sustenance.

So, to clarify, I was not citing your specific words, rather your propensity to jump the shark on occassion. I don't mind as it makes for a lively discussion.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I obviously failed at my attempt to overstate your position as you often do to other commenters. Methinks I shall try one more time...
I said I think there should be some social services, you tagged that as socialism. Certainly, a society can put in place reasonable means and preferably through not for profits, safety nets for people in need - medical, food, housing, etc.

And people in need will get these services for free, right? Sounds like a "freebie" to me.

Will people in need be entitled to this help? If so, how are they not "entitlements?"

Private Sector always does it better than government. In the US our "safety nets" have turned into monstrous ways of life for people. We could debate at what point does a "safety net" become socialism - but why bother.

I feel you. It appears the real definition of "socialism" here is "any government programs the right wing doesn't like, but not government programs the right wing does like." So as you say, why bother?

We could come up with a great plan, but then we would have to get it through congress. I think we could at least agree on melting down all the government cheese so no one would have to ever again depend on it for sustenance.

So, to clarify, I was not citing your specific words, rather your propensity to jump the shark on occassion. I don't mind as it makes for a lively discussion.

Do you understand what the term "jump the shark" means? Here's a hint. It does not mean "to overstate an argument."

 

[cj44]

And people in need will get these services for free, right? Sounds like a "freebie" to me.

Will people in need be entitled to this help? If so, how are they not "entitlements?"


I feel you. It appears the real definition of "socialism" here is "any government programs the right wing doesn't like, but not government programs the right wing does like." So as you say, why bother?


Do you understand what the term "jump the shark" means? Here's a hint. It does not mean "to overstate an argument."

Looks like I am in deep trouble with the T-Bones.
I'll start with the shark comment. I was under the impression that the term "jump the shark" means to go to far and indeed could be used to suggest one is overstating or going to far in debate. I do hope it isn't some sort of perverted slang. If it is, I apologize.

Are you suggesting that we demand payment from a homeless, comatose man? Or are we to demand that a crackbaby pay for her hospital services? Or, when I work at the food kitchen, am I to demand five bucks for a bowl of soup???? Now you are talking crazy talk, T-Bones.

Right Wing or Left Wing - they are all useless to me. Maybe we should get back on topic before Mentalfloss scolds us. So back to those do gooder athiests....

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Looks like I am in deep trouble with the T-Bones.
I'll start with the shark comment. I was under the impression that the term "jump the shark" means to go to far and indeed could be used to suggest one is overstating or going to far in debate. I do hope it isn't some sort of perverted slang. If it is, I apologize.

It means to persist after you no longer have anything to say. The reference is from the television show "Happy Days." It's generally accepted that in the later seasons the show was no longer funny or interesting. Ratings were dropping, and the writers began doing more and more weird and nonsensical stuff just to have something they hadn't done before. At one point, they had Fonzie jump over a shark tank on his motorcycle. Hence, "jumping the shark."

Are you suggesting that we demand payment from a homeless, comatose man? Or are we to demand that a crackbaby pay for her hospital services? Or, when I work at the food kitchen, am I to demand five bucks for a bowl of soup???? Now you are talking crazy talk, T-Bones.

Umm. . . no matter how you try to put words in my mouth, it's still you talking, not me.

Right Wing or Left Wing - they are all useless to me.

Me too. I despise both wings equally.

Maybe we should get back on topic before Mentalfloss scolds us. So back to those do gooder athiests....

I'm an empiricists at heart. Atheists do good. Believers do good. Atheists do bad. Believers do bad.

Conclusion so obvious it hurts to say it: doing good or bad is not a function of belief or disbelief.

Zip-a-dee-doo-dah.

 

[cj44]

It means to persist after you no longer have anything to say. The reference is from the television show "Happy Days." It's generally accepted that in the later seasons the show was no longer funny or interesting. Ratings were dropping, and the writers began doing more and more weird and nonsensical stuff just to have something they hadn't done before. At one point, they had Fonzie jump over a shark tank on his motorcycle. Hence, "jumping the shark."


Umm. . . no matter how you try to put words in my mouth, it's still you talking, not me.


Me too. I despise both wings equally.


I'm an empiricists at heart. Atheists do good. Believers do good. Atheists do bad. Believers do bad.

Conclusion so obvious it hurts to say it: doing good or bad is not a function of belief or disbelief.

Zip-a-dee-doo-dah.

So then, jumping the shark means going to far. The Fonz went to far because he ran out of stuff to do.

In regards to the freebies - uh, yes some people should just get stuff for nothing...the crackbaby, the homeless comatose dude and the guy at the soup kitchen shouldn't have to pay for his soup. I wouldn't jump the shark and say those are entitlements though.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

So then, jumping the shark means going to far. The Fonz went to far because he ran out of stuff to do.

Seriously, don't use the expression. You don't really get it.

In regards to the freebies - uh, yes some people should just get stuff for nothing...the crackbaby, the homeless comatose dude and the guy at the soup kitchen shouldn't have to pay for his soup. I wouldn't jump the shark and say those are entitlements though.

That's funny, we agree on everything but the terminology. But you go right ahead on thinking I'm a socialist or whatever your bad word of the day is, K?

 

[Sal]

A new study by Pew Research analyzes data from more than 40,000 people in 40 countries who were asked this provocative question: “Do you need God to be moral?” http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117131/religiosity-social-dysfunction-linked-pew-study

My answer would be no, I do not. My behaviour and decisions are not based upon the supposed will of a God who imposes strict behavioral adherence upon me although I do believe in God.

Do my atheist friends need God to be moral: no. I know this via observation of moral issues which have occurred and their reaction to said issues. My atheist friends are amazing human beings whom I would trust to make the correct judgement for me and for my life if I were unable to do so. There is no higher trust. It's quite simple really.

Does the average person need God to be moral: absolutely

And the study backs up my gut reaction.

And that includes atheists and the religious.

 

[mentalfloss]

Head Minister of my Belief????? WHAT???? WHO????? Mental, that is crazy talk.

1. You argue that only someone who believes in God can be a morally good person and that a stronger belief/faith only strengthens that moral capability

2. You disagree with the pope on issues that you believe make up a morally good person

3. That's fukked up considering the pope would (and should) be the penultimate authority on moral behaviour according to your ethical standards criteria


Comprende now?


Now, all you have to do is renounce your faith and accept atheism and I shall forgive you of your sins.

 

[cj44]

T-Bones, I do not think you are a socialist because I do not know if you are a socialist. I have no bad words for you.

1. You argue that only someone who believes in God can be a morally good person and that a stronger belief/faith only strengthens that moral capability

2. You disagree with the pope on issues that you believe make up a morally good person

3. That's fukked up considering the pope would (and should) be the penultimate authority on moral behaviour according to your ethical standards criteria


Comprende now?


Now, all you have to do is renounce your faith and accept atheism and I shall forgive you of your sins.

Mental:
1. athiests, agnostics, religious, otherwise specified spiritualists, Christians all can act "moral". It is my opinion that a belief in God can, but not necessarily, equip a person to do more good.
2. I am unaware of what the Pope requires and therefore cannot comment regarding agreement or disagreement
3. I do not in any way acknowledge the Pope as the moral authority.

And now you would like me to renounce my faith and accept atheism. Then you of all people will forgive me of my sins. You're simply fantastic.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I want you to renounce your faith and accept solipsism. Then you can forgive your own sins.

 

[tay]

 

[Ludlow]

I propose a dump tax for all people who make more than a million bucks a month. Five bucks charged for every time they have to take a dump. The proceeds would go to a fund that will help world poverty.

 

[captain morgan]

SO how come god never told the preachers that diddling kids is wrong?

Makes ya wonder who was supposed to tell the teachers and Drs that diddling kids is bad.

Someone really dropped the ball on that account

Capitalism is tyranny, particularly in the US. In socialism, business is owned by the people, not the government. You are thinking of communism, which is a bastardized form of socialism and was turned into a totalitarian government by lunatics like Lennon and Mao.Look to Sweden and Norway if you want to see how socialism works.

Your form of socialism is founded on the base principles of Capitalism.... An exchange of goods/services for consideration is still capitalistic regardless of who 'owns' the business

I propose a dump tax for all people who make more than a million bucks a month. Five bucks charged for every time they have to take a dump. The proceeds would go to a fund that will help world poverty.

How about the atheists step up to the plate and solve the issue instead of having a tantrum and waxing philosophical about religion and morality