So you are in effect conceding that the thread title, "Rational Faith," is oxymoronic.
Rational Faith
- Thread starter Motar
- Start date
Dexter, You are correct in regards to the medical science that was available for our son at the time of his birth. He was born in 2002 and the open heart surgery he needed for his particular heart defect was only just perfected in 1987. I need to clarify in regards to human understanding. Human reason without the work of the Holy Spirit is unable to grasp God and unable to know his presence. I am speaking of spiritual matters. There is a difference here in what fellow posters have said. Some believe this god/force/spirit comes from within. I am speaking of a definitive Being from without. I cannot afford you any iron clad scientific proof. God said he will not be found that way. I can suggest ways to find him, though I hesitate because I do not want to indicate that we can find God by some devised formula. I'm not sure how else to say except for there is a Holy Spirit, and when he quickens your spirit then you will know. This is not a faculty humans are born with. Also, this quickening comes by grace alone. Still, I think it better not to shake our fist at God and seek him in humility.
Cliffy - we are not to trust in our understanding. (spiritual matters) God wants us to trust in HIM, His Word, His Thoughts,
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
My point really was that had you left things up to god, you'd have lost your child. His mercy doesn't enter into this, he had nothing to do with it. About 9 million children under the age of 5 die every year around the world. God, granting that he exists, is either powerless to prevent this suffering of the innocents, or he chooses not to. On your analysis, you must believe this suffering has some purpose it's not given to us to know and is actually a good thing. I'd say it means god is either impotent, evil, or doesn't exist. That last is by far the simplest explanation. That's part of the point Les Gilbert was trying to make above, the problem of suffering and evil in the world. No religion has ever provided a satisfactory explanation for it. The guy who wrote the Book of Job made a heroic stab at it, but ultimately has god telling Job, I can do whatever I want, I'm god and I don't have to justify myself to you, so just deal with it. That explains nothing, but it does suggest god's a pretty nasty bully.
I'm gonna chime in on cj's side here. There is another possible explanation, and that is that God's plan is of such scale and importance that the deaths of nine million children per year is not a big, fat, hairy deal.
Just as we may feel a momentary pang of regret for all the critters that will die in order for us to build a city, but don't let that stop us, perhaps God sees this as necessary to build His Holy City, and not such a big deal anyway. If your soul lives forever, missing out on seventy-odd years on Earth is no big deal.
Dexter, In one of our son's physcians offices, a quilt hangs on the wall that reads:
The
God
Physician
Heals
Works
Are not medical breakthroughs a gift from God?
You afford God no time period in which to bring suffering in the world to an end? I don't think humans grasp the intensity with which God HATES sin. We live in a fallen state because of this Sin - everything is effected - all of creation, health, community, life, earth, relationship to God - everything. We are living under the consequences of Sin.
No one wants to accept this as an explanation though. We don't want to hear it. Instead we determine God is either dead or a tyrant. What if we actually believed his Word. What if we considered what he says? His thoughts and ways are not ours. Do we really want to know God or do we want to conform him to our thoughts and ideas?
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
It ain't over till the fat lady sings. - for those that get irritated with my quoting of scripture.
The only thing that dies or suffers is the meat sack. It is just a vehicle and like all vehicles, eventually wears out and dies. The real and everlasting part is the soul. The soul is the "You" and the meat sack and ego are the "you". The ego is only attached to the body, the soul (consciousness) is attached to everything.
T-Bones, I appreciate your thoughts here. Just want to say that God does think those "9 million children dying" is a big deal. Every hair on our head is numbered. See what a battle faith is.
Cliffy - we almost come to agreement. Indeed our old meat sack will be devoured by maggots.....oh, well until we are ressurected that is.
1COR15:12
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Cliffy - we almost come to agreement. Indeed our old meat sack will be devoured by maggots.....oh, well until we are ressurected that is.
1COR15:12
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
Quoting from a plagiarized book of fables means nothing to those who know what it is. Blind faith is not really faith at all.
Sorry, I didn't mean to set it lightly. You're right, I put it badly. Let's try again.
When you are creating perfection, if the process causes the greatest pain and agony, it is worth it. A pale and inadequate comparison is human warfare: despite the immense pain, we hope the outcome is worth it. It is possible, once you accept the whole God thing, that in order to provide us with free will, while still working toward the perfection of the World to Come, it became necessary that there would be great suffering. Still, the World to Come will be worth all that we, and God, suffered.
That's how the Jews believe, as I understand it. Presumably most Christians believe the same way.
This just makes me think of the zombie apocalypse: bunch of rotting corpses running around singing Hallelujah!
Cliffy, The Bible is either the Word of God or as you say "a plagiarized book of fables". I'm going to go with it is The Word of God. Now what would be amuse me - at least intially is being buried next to you. Then on that glorious day of the second coming of our Lord, the dead come crawling out of their graves. You & I crawl out of the ground & I look over at you and say, "What do you think now, Cliffy?"
Where does human reason come in? It doesn't. It lies there dead on the floor.
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
Cliffy,
I have been chatting with you for 3 or 4 months now and you do not know if I am a man or woman? Great. You are doing wonders for my self esteem.
Elie Wiesel is a piece of dung with a mouth that never passed a true word in it's entire miserable existence.
Been meaning to ask, Dark. Seeing as you hate Jews above all else (at least your posts would indicate), do you think the Nazis were on the right track?
The subject be it man or woman is convinced it will be reborn in it's newly renovated meat skin. It understands nothing I fear.
Above all else I hate idiots who say that I hate Jews. The Nazis are busy tearing down the Ukraine this morning, and you think they're on the right track. You know where you can stick your cheap little shots, snothead.
PS Weisel is lying about being a Jew.
Mr Beaver!!!!! You have come off the rails. Get a couple of batteries, wire & tinfoil. Hook yourself up for a charge. You are fading fast!The subject be it man or woman is convinced it will be reborn in it's newly renovated meat skin. It understands nothing I fear.
Above all else I hate idiots who say that I hate Jews. The Nazis are busy tearing down the Ukraine this morning, and you think they're on the right track. You know where you can stick your cheap little shots, snothead.
PS Weisel is lying about being a Jew.