Barack Obama Failed

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BornRuff

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BaalsTears said:
The amendments to the ACA that passed through budget reconciliation rather than conference committee reconciliation (proper order) eliminated the aforementioned items of graft that were so egregious that the House of Representatives balked at passage of the corrupt Senate legislation. The reallocation of funds was incidental. Your argument is like the tail wagging the dog because it elevates form over substance. There is no getting around the fact that proper order was not used by the Democrats because they wanted to circumvent the election of Scott Brown. Thus, they had an improper purpose in resorting to the budget reconciliation process instead of the conference committee reconciliation process.
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Well, no, the reallocation of funds was exactly what the bill was intended to do.

You can attach any rationale to the changes that you want, the fact is that the legislation didn't do anything other than adjust how much money was being spent. There is nothing in the bill about corruption. There are no non-budgetary changes that would affect any other pork barrel spending item.

Unfortunately pork is a big problem in US politics. Wrangling over specific pork barrel items is not a big stand against corruption, it is everyday work Washington.

EagleSmack said:
And? Did they?

How did Scott Brown vote again?

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Lol, do we really need to go through this again?

The GOP made it clear that they would not allow any legislation to pass through the senate. Scott Brown was very clear that he would block it.
 
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BaalsTears

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BornRuff said:
Well, no, the reallocation of funds was exactly what the bill was intended to do.

You can attach any rationale to the changes that you want, the fact is that the legislation didn't do anything other than adjust how much money was being spent. There is nothing in the bill about corruption. There are no non-budgetary changes that would affect any other pork barrel spending item.

Unfortunately pork is a big problem in US politics. Wrangling over specific pork barrel items is not a big stand against corruption, it is everyday work Washington.



Lol, do we really need to go through this again?

The GOP made it clear that they would not allow any legislation to pass through the senate. Scott Brown was very clear that he would block it.
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Why was it necessary to amend the ACA?

Why was the budget reconciliation process used instead of conference committee reconciliation?
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
Lol, do we really need to go through this again?

The GOP made it clear that they would not allow any legislation to pass through the senate. Scott Brown was very clear that he would block it.
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So you're saying he didn't vote then. So he had no affect. Simple.

Did Scott Brown stop them from reaching an agreement in the summer and early fall of 2009 as well?

(I'll give you a hint.... N-O)


There are no "Well would would have made it different but the Republicans... blah blah blah"

That's just a Democrat cop out as they to save their butts and blame the GOP for the absolute mess they made.


This bill was 100% Democrat...The Democrats voted overwhelmingly for this disastrous law. They have only themselves to blame.
 
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BornRuff

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EagleSmack said:
Is that a white flag?

"If you like your Health Care plan... you can keep it."

Did the Republicans make the Democrats spread that lie over and over? Did Scott Brown?
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Lol, you can't see what I am getting at there?

BTW, changing the subject often looks like you are trying to avoid the subject.
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
So the answer is no, you can't see what I am getting at there?
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What?

I see that you are trying to blame the GOP when the abomination known as Obamacare is 100% fault of the Democrats.

I see you are trying to make excuses for the Democrats... well your excuses are their excuses as well.
 
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BaalsTears said:
That's correct. The ACA seizes one sixth of the American economy and places it under federal control. The ACA is ostensibly designed to further the objective of social welfare.

The Social Security Act and Medicare Act were also designed to further the objective of providing for social welfare...but they were passed with bipartisan majorities. The same thing is true for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. All passed with large bipartisan majorities.

The importance of having bipartisan support is that it provides political legitimacy through consensus. Since the ACA was passed without bipartisan support it lacks political legitimacy (as opposed to legal legitimacy). One of the results of a lack of political legitimacy is that the ACA will always be contentious and a source of division. The ACA creates winners and losers, and the losers will be mobilized to never accept their status as losers.
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So that is why it is all on the Democrats . Makes sense to me .
 
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BornRuff

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EagleSmack said:
What?

I see that you are trying to blame the GOP when the abomination known as Obamacare is 100% fault of the Democrats.

I see you are trying to make excuses for the Democrats... well your excuses are their excuses as well.
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We can go back to my very first post where I tried to explain to you that it was naive to claim that the Republicans had no impact on how the bill was formed. You seem to be really attached to this delusion that nothing that they did had any significance whatsoever though.
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
We can go back to my very first post where I tried to explain to you that it was naive to claim that the Republicans had no impact on how the bill was formed.
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Outside of wanting to keep the Republicans out of the process?

It was a Democrat bill... End of story.

The Democrats are to blame for the law, no matter what excuse they try to float.


You seem to be really attached to this delusion that nothing that they did had any significance whatsoever though.
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The GOP tried to stop it. That is what they tried to do but they didn't have the votes.
 
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BornRuff

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EagleSmack said:
Outside of wanting to keep the Republicans out of the process?

It was a Democrat bill... End of story.

The Democrats are to blame for the law, no matter what excuse they try to float.


The GOP tried to stop it. That is what they tried to do but they didn't have the votes.
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Lol, this is way past broken record status, but....

In trying to block the bill, they had a material impact on how the bill was formed and who it ultimately turned out. Just ask BaalsTears.
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
Lol, this is way past broken record status, but....

In trying to block the bill, they had a material impact on how the bill was formed and who it ultimately turned out. Just ask BaalsTears.
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But they had all year to make it. All year before Scott Brown was a factor.

Saying NOW that it wasn't the bill they wanted because NOW the nation sees how destructive it is is simply a cop out and cowardly on their part. Pathetic excuses.

Shame on them if they passed a bill that was so destructive to something so important. But the GOP shares no responsibility at all in Obamacare.

You're trying to lay blame on the GOP. Sorry Charlie... again... this law was written by the Democrats and passed by the Democrats only. The Democrats are to blame 100%.
 
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BornRuff

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EagleSmack said:
But they had all year to make it. All year before Scott Brown was a factor.

Saying NOW that it wasn't the bill they wanted because NOW the nation sees how destructive it is is simply a cop out and cowardly on their part. Pathetic excuses.

Shame on them if they passed a bill that was so destructive to something so important. But the GOP shares no responsibility at all in Obamacare.

You're trying to lay blame on the GOP. Sorry Charlie... again... this law was written by the Democrats and passed by the Democrats only. The Democrats are to blame 100%.
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Again, who cares what they could have done? We are talking about what actually happened.

If you followed the debate in any way, you would know that back then it also wasn't the exact bill they wanted to pass. The story never changed. Their options were limited by having a 41st GOP vote.

Nobody in this thread has ever claimed this is all the GOP's fault or that the Democrats or Obama have no blame. It is plain as day in my very first point and very simple. I said it is naive to pretend that the GOP had not impact on how the bill turned out. Simple observation shows how they limited the options available to the democrats.
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
Again, who cares what they could have done? We are talking about what actually happened.
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Right! Maybe you're getting it!

Let's talk about what actually happened.

The Democrats created a bill... it was passed in the Senate by only Democrats... it was passed in the House by only Democrats... it was signed into Law by a Democrat President.

That is what ACTUALLY happened!

If you followed the debate in any way, you would know that back then it also wasn't the exact bill they wanted to pass.
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But they DID write it and it was passed!

It's a huge load of bull to say it wasn't the exact bill they wanted now that the nation sees the damage the Democrats have brought.

Lets pass bad legislation before the GOP can stop us from passing bad legislation!

The story never changed. Their options were limited by having a 41st GOP vote.
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And did Scott Brown vote?

(hint... N-O)

Nobody in this thread has ever claimed this is all the GOP's fault or that the Democrats or Obama have no blame.
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It is ALL the Democrats and Obama's fault with regards to Obamacare... end of story.

It is plain as day in my very first point and very simple. I said it is naive to pretend that the GOP had not impact on how the bill turned out. Simple observation shows how they limited the options available to the democrats.
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The GOP didn't limit anything. All the options were still available.

The Democrats wanted their Obamacare and to h*** with the GOP.

Well... now they have it.
 
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BornRuff

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EagleSmack said:
It's a huge load of bull to say it wasn't the exact bill they wanted now that the nation sees the damage the Democrats have brought.
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You have a real problem with facts. Back then many democrats were very clear that they were unhappy with the senate version of the bill. They wanted to make changes.

EagleSmack said:
And did Scott Brown vote?

(hint... N-O)
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You also seem to have a problem understanding how congress works. Scott Brown and the rest of the GOP clearly said they would block any new bill from getting through the senate.

Maybe you will take the word of other political watchers over me.

Scott Brown’s important place in history

EagleSmack said:
The GOP didn't limit anything. All the options were still available.
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No. Explain to me how they could have gotten a new bill through the senate.
 
EagleSmack

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BornRuff said:
You have a real problem with facts. Back then many democrats were very clear that they were unhappy with the senate version of the bill. They wanted to make changes.
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Why didn't they change it then? The GOP wasn't stopping them.

Why didn't they have this all squared away even before the Special Election in Massachusetts?

Just more excuses on your part.



You also seem to have a problem understanding how congress works. Scott Brown and the rest of the GOP clearly said they would block any new bill from getting through the senate.
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So they chose to pass a horribly destructive bill because the GOP might block it? And so the horrible law is now the GOPs fault?!

That is asinine.

I know exactly how the US Congress works. You're trying to blame Democrat irresponsibility on the GOP.

No. Explain to me how they could have gotten a new bill through the senate.
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Easy... they could have done all that work before the special election.The Senate version passed with ease. 60-39 for it.

Heck the Congress could have passed Universal Health Care if they wanted too!

Don't blame the GOP for winning an extra seat in 2010.

But we shouldn't be talking about what COULD have happened. You said it yourself.
 
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