Rational Faith

[Tecumsehsbones]

The biblical standard for legitimate testimony evidence mandates two or three witnesses, LG:

"On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." (Deuteronomy 17:6 NIV)

"One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (Deuteronomy 19:15 NIV)

"But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (Matthew 18:16 NIV)

"In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true." (John 8:17 NIV)

"This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." (2 Corinthians 13:1 NIV)

"Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." (Hebrews 10:28 NIV)

Presuming that such witnesses have one or more of the five senses, would their testimony qualify as evidence in your estimation?

Works for me. To what are they testifying?

See, there's a difference between testifying "I saw Bob stab Joe with a kitchen knife" and "There is a god because I feel it deep inside." The former, if proved, is a fact. The latter, if proved, remains an unsupported conclusion.

 

[cj44]

No, because in fact there is not such reasonable evidence. Creationism or intelligent design or whatever you want to call it is errant nonsense that's completely unnecessary and adds nothing to any explanation of the universe, it's just the God of the Gaps fallacy that avoids an explanation. The archeological record in the main does not sustain biblical history, Israeli archeologists seeking what David Ben-Gurion referred to as the title deeds for Jewish claims in Palestine have come up empty: no enslavement in Egypt, no exodus, no empire of David and Solomon... We have no eyewitness accounts of Jesus at all, and no the synoptic gospels are not eyewiness accounts. The earliest one, Mark, dates from around 70 A.D. And outside the Bible Jesus is unknown to history, there are no corroborating accounts, all we have are a few rather testy references to some of his fractious early followers.

I have seen different accounts - either way, I guess that will leave us to debating which evidence is factual. Still, I find it rational to believe that there is an intelligent design to our universe. I find creation too intricate and glorious to have been a random collision. Even if it all started with a big bang there is obvious planning that went into all of life.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I have seen different accounts - either way, I guess that will leave us to debating which evidence is factual. Still, I find it rational to believe that there is an intelligent design to our universe. I find creation too intricate and glorious to have been a random collision. Even if it all started with a big bang there is obvious planning that went into all of life.

I'd like to see the plan that produced Snooki.

 

[cj44]

I'd like to see the plan that produced Snooki.

T-Bones, There are occassional glitches in the DNA code.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

T-Bones, There are occassional glitches in the DNA code.

So, you're saying God and His Holy Plan aren't perfect?

I'll get the firewood and oil.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I have seen different accounts - either way, I guess that will leave us to debating which evidence is factual. Still, I find it rational to believe that there is an intelligent design to our universe. I find creation too intricate and glorious to have been a random collision. Even if it all started with a big bang there is obvious planning that went into all of life.

It's not obvious at all. If you look closely at the real evidence we have, what it shows is an absence of design, or at best a very lazy and incompetent designer. From an engineering perspective many of the "designs" are staggeringly bad. Our teeth often don't fit our mouths properly, the light-sensing structures in our eyes face away from the incoming light, behind the layer of blood vessels and nerves that supply them, our jaw and knee joints are extremely fragile, our reproductive and excretory organs share the same space and some of the same structures, as do our breathing and eating apparati...Need I go on? The human body from a design perspective is a terrible piece of work.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It's not obvious at all. If you look closely at the real evidence we have, what it shows is an absence of design, or at best a very lazy and incompetent designer. From an engineering perspective many of the "designs" are staggeringly bad. Our teeth often don't fit our mouths properly, the light-sensing structures in our eyes face away from the incoming light, behind the layer of blood vessels and nerves that supply them, our jaw and knee joints are extremely fragile, our reproductive and excretory organs share the same space and some of the same structures, as do our breathing and eating apparati...Need I go on? The human body from a design perspective is a terrible piece of work.

Especially Snooki.

 

[Motar]

It's not obvious at all. If you look closely at the real evidence we have...

Real evidence, Dex? Do you mean physical evidence?

Heckifino. Never had anything to do with parole boards. My guess is they go by a lot of factors like how the perp behaved in prison, length of rapsheet, etc. Why? What's with this line of questioning? You really don't know what evidence is?

The subject of this thread is rational faith or evidence-based belief and practice. That is why we are now discussing evidence, LG. In my world, there is both physical and spiritual evidence. Allow me to explain.

Historically, parole decisions have been fairly subjective. Prison records and parole board hearings evaluate inmate behavior. No hair samples or other physical evidence to examine. Just behavioral (spiritual) evidence has been considered. Even today, as recidivism assessment tools are developed and utilized, the emphasis is still on spiritual (behavioral) evidence, not physical. And those assessment tools are only as accurate and complete as those who develop and utilize them. Even if physical evidence (DNA) is considered in the release of an inmate, it is not a reliable predictor of reintegration into public life.

But parole is an important matter. It potentially impacts everyone. Parole decisions are made every day based upon spiritual (behavioral) evidence. Is spiritual evidence real evidence?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Real evidence, Dex? Do you mean physical evidence?



The subject of this thread is rational faith or evidence-based belief and practice. That is why we are now discussing evidence, LG. In my world, there is both physical and spiritual evidence. Allow me to explain.

Historically, parole decisions have been fairly subjective. Prison records and parole board hearings evaluate inmate behavior. No hair samples or other physical evidence to examine. Just behavioral (spiritual) evidence has been considered. Even today, as recidivism assessment tools are developed and utilized, the emphasis is still on spiritual (behavioral) evidence, not physical. And those assessment tools are only as accurate and complete as those who develop and utilize them. Even if physical evidence (DNA) is considered in the release of an inmate, it is not a reliable predictor of reintegration into public life.

But parole is an important matter. It potentially impacts everyone. Parole decisions are made every day based upon spiritual (behavioral) evidence. Is spiritual evidence real evidence?

No. Behavioural evidence is. It's the observed behaviour of a real person (the one standing in front of the parole board).

By the way, if your god truly does control and operate the universe, he's a mass murderer every day, and no sane parole board would ever release him, on behavioural evidence.

 

[Cliffy]

But parole is an important matter. It potentially impacts everyone. Parole decisions are made every day based upon spiritual (behavioral) evidence. Is spiritual evidence real evidence?

I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how you relate behaviour and spiritual. Spiritual is interior, behaviour is external. Are people good because they fear reprisal (god) or because they have integrity? I find far more integrity among atheists because they have no god to fear. If someone needs the fear of hell to make them behave, then I can only assume that they are not good people to begin with.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how you relate behaviour and spiritual.

I believe it's called "Christian Apologetics." Or possibly "Poor Grasp of English."

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Real evidence, Dex? Do you mean physical evidence?

I mean any kind of evidence that can survive routine skeptical scrutiny.

 

[darkbeaver]

EVIDENCE OF GOD

X-FLARE! Returning sunspot AR1967 unleashed a powerful X4.9-class solar flare on Feb. 25th at 00:49 UTC. This is the most intense flare of 2014 so far, and one of the most intense of the current solar cycle. NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory recorded the extreme ultraviolet flash:

Only a fool does not fear the sword of GOD.

and fire and brimstone as well

 

[Cliffy]

Only a fool does not fear the sword of GOD.

and fire and brimstone as well

You have to fear death to fear god. We all come to an end sooner or later. No point in worrying about it. Why fear the inevitable? The thing is, the sun is not pissed off, it just has heart burn. The god of the bible gets pissed off and whole nations die.

 

[L Gilbert]

I have seen different accounts - either way, I guess that will leave us to debating which evidence is factual. Still, I find it rational to believe that there is an intelligent design to our universe. I find creation too intricate and glorious to have been a random collision.

There is nothing random in the universe.

Even if it all started with a big bang there is obvious planning that went into all of life.

Obvious? And the evidence for this claim is ..........?

I'd like to see the plan that produced Snooki.

T-Bones, There are occassional glitches in the DNA code.

So who's perfect?

 

[Cliffy]

So who's perfect?

Me. I am perfect for what I came into this life to learn.

 

[cj44]

There is nothing random in the universe.Obvious? And the evidence for this claim is ..........?



So who's perfect?

Gilbert, "..Obvious? And the evidence for this claim is ..........?"

EYESIGHT. Have you looked around? By the looks of your picture, it appears you have a dog - a german shepherd perhaps?. Go take a good look at that dog. He didn't come about by chance. Does no one stand in awe of creation anymore?

Are we all so sophisticated that we demand something more than intelligent design?

It's not obvious at all. If you look closely at the real evidence we have, what it shows is an absence of design, or at best a very lazy and incompetent designer. From an engineering perspective many of the "designs" are staggeringly bad. Our teeth often don't fit our mouths properly, the light-sensing structures in our eyes face away from the incoming light, behind the layer of blood vessels and nerves that supply them, our jaw and knee joints are extremely fragile, our reproductive and excretory organs share the same space and some of the same structures, as do our breathing and eating apparati...Need I go on? The human body from a design perspective is a terrible piece of work.

Dexter, I am beginning to think you are a "glass is half empty" type. Along came sin and along came imperfection - crooked teeth and all.
My knees are good.

Dex, And...would you rather your behind be attached to your forehead? Where are you going with all this talk of organ placement?

 

[L Gilbert]

Real evidence, Dex? Do you mean physical evidence?



The subject of this thread is rational faith or evidence-based belief and practice. That is why we are now discussing evidence, LG. In my world, there is both physical and spiritual evidence. Allow me to explain.

Historically, parole decisions have been fairly subjective. Prison records and parole board hearings evaluate inmate behavior. No hair samples or other physical evidence to examine. Just behavioral (spiritual) evidence has been considered. Even today, as recidivism assessment tools are developed and utilized, the emphasis is still on spiritual (behavioral) evidence, not physical. And those assessment tools are only as accurate and complete as those who develop and utilize them. Even if physical evidence (DNA) is considered in the release of an inmate, it is not a reliable predictor of reintegration into public life.

But parole is an important matter. It potentially impacts everyone. Parole decisions are made every day based upon spiritual (behavioral) evidence. Is spiritual evidence real evidence?

So you think spirituality is psychology? Psychology is the study of behavior. Behavior can be defined quantified and I don't think spirituality can be. Some behaviors are genetic. Is there a genetic aspect to spirituality? I don't think so.
Spirituality, IMO, has more to do with how we relate (not react) to reality because of the sum of our experiences, plus our strength of will, and it defies quantifying.

Gilbert, "..Obvious? And the evidence for this claim is ..........?"

EYESIGHT. Have you looked around? By the looks of your picture, it appears you have a dog - a german shepherd perhaps?. Go take a good look at that dog. He didn't come about by chance.

Nope, he came about by genetics and procreation. That is what is obvious to me. There is evidence of that.

Does no one stand in awe of creation anymore?

Not I. I am in awe of natural phenomena on occasion, though, and I don't attribute it to anything mystical. There's no evidence that anything created anything living or dead except evolution.

Are we all so sophisticated that we demand something more than intelligent design?

There's no evidence that anything intelligent created the universe.

Dexter, I am beginning to think you are a "glass is half empty" type. Along came sin and along came imperfection - crooked teeth and all.
My knees are good.

Dex, And...would you rather your behind be attached to your forehead? Where are you going with all this talk of organ placement?

He's saying the human body is not designed very well. Evolution put its efforts into developing our brains and left our bodies pretty weak and ill-developed.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

There's no evidence that anything intelligent created the universe.

Given the shape the universe is in, I'm developing a theory called "stupid design."

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter, I am beginning to think you are a "glass is half empty" type. Along came sin and along came imperfection - crooked teeth and all.
My knees are good.

Dex, And...would you rather your behind be attached to your forehead? Where are you going with all this talk of organ placement?

The obvious place, as Les pointed out: the human body is a very poor piece of design, that's all. His dog, BTW, is indeed a product of intelligent design, as are all dogs. The intelligence was human. Humans have been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, so when do you suppose sin and imperfection came along?