Rational Faith

[Tecumsehsbones]

Someone is going to have egg on their face when their appointed day comes.

I don't mind having egg on my face, cj. I approach the world with an open mind and an open heart, and do the very best I can with what I have in every situation I find myself in. Sometimes I'm right, often I'm wrong. I try to learn and do better. If it turns out I'm damned because I didn't follow some psychopathic god's little rules about which end of an egg to break, I'm OK with that. Can't see how spending eternity with such a two-bit Hitler would be much fun anyhow.

 

[darkbeaver]

And yet our most "advanced" civilisations have used child labourers, child soldiers, left the elderly to die, and murdered the intellectually disabled. And justified it, frequently in the name of God. I'm not talking about primitive, back-of-the-beyond tribes, they usually take care of their weak, to the maximum extent they can. I'm talking about Britain, France, Germany, the United States, Canada, those countries that folks here usually see as the shining beacons of morality, or at least better than all those primitives.

We may have a problem with the word "advanced" or the word "civilization" or simply their close association in a sentence.. It looks like advancement in civilization has been abandoned in favour of accumulations.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

We may have a problem with the word "advanced" or the word "civilization" or simply their close association in a sentence.. It looks like advancement in civilization has been abandoned in favour of accumulations.

Let's just say I agree, Dark. Ain't gonna go down the road into that swamp today. I'm too sick, and can't hang on for the mountains of buffalo dung that "debate" would generate.

 

[darkbeaver]

Let's just say I agree, Dark. Ain't gonna go down the road into that swamp today. I'm too sick, and can't hang on for the mountains of buffalo dung that "debate" would generate.

Well hurry up and get better. I am just recovering from a week of feeling like dung. Just in time to shovel some more globally warmed snow.

 

[cj44]

I don't mind having egg on my face, cj. I approach the world with an open mind and an open heart, and do the very best I can with what I have in every situation I find myself in. Sometimes I'm right, often I'm wrong. I try to learn and do better. If it turns out I'm damned because I didn't follow some psychopathic god's little rules about which end of an egg to break, I'm OK with that. Can't see how spending eternity with such a two-bit Hitler would be much fun anyhow.

I applaud your haughtiness, villainy, and malice. There is nothing to surpass you.

Bah ha ha Take it easy T-Bones. Maybe someday you will say something you regret....maybe...

Well hurry up and get better. I am just recovering from a week of feeling like dung. Just in time to shovel some more globally warmed snow.

Mr. Beaver,
I am sorry to hear you are feeling like dung.
"globally warmed snow"....funny

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The very hardest thing for a human being to say, Dex, has always been "I don't know." They'll come up with the most abstruse, bizarre chains of fantasy to avoid it, then kill to defend their delusions.

Not if the human being's been trained in the sciences, there "I don't know" is a daily admission. That's the motivator in fact, because following it is always the clause, "but I want to know." I think you're talking more about religion, really, that's "I DO know, and here's how," followed by "abstruse, bizarre chains of fantasy" to justify it. I think everybody wants to know, but most of us, when we don't know, make up stories to explain things. Religion I think, citing Christopher Hitchens again as I'm fond of doing--that guy had more wit and erudition than some civilizations I could name (credit Sam Harris for that observation)--is our first and worst attempt at an explanation.

 

[cj44]

Not if the human being's been trained in the sciences, there "I don't know" is a daily admission. That's the motivator in fact, because following it is always the clause, "but I want to know." I think you're talking more about religion, really, that's "I DO know, and here's how," followed by "abstruse, bizarre chains of fantasy" to justify it. I think everybody wants to know, but most of us, when we don't know, make up stories to explain things. Religion I think, citing Christopher Hitchens again as I'm fond of doing--that guy had more wit and erudition than some civilizations I could name (credit Sam Harris for that observation)--is our first and worst attempt at an explanation.

Methinks it is a mistake to assume a person of faith has "made up bizarre chains of fanasy to justify it". Faith (accompanied by the truth found in the Word) sometimes comes by way of laws of nature being broken. Sometimes divine nature and heavenly hosts break through before our very eyes. Certainly the danger in speaking such things will cause Unbelief to come with white coats and chains to seize the believer out of sympathy. Are such "experiences" to be found only within the mind of schizophrenics and those influenced by hallucinatory drugs?

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived"—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Motar]

'We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: 'What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived' — the things God has prepared for those who love him — these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, 'Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ.

You speak about rational faith, cj. Not only a regenerate mind, but a converted heart as well:

Now, you describe a very intellectual process that led you to change your worldview. What about the emotional aspect of what happened on that day, and thereafter?

"It certainly did carry with it this experience that life is now different. And along with that, this sense that God is not some distant concept, some ethereal, fuzzy entity. God became personal for me at that point. That really was the decision I was making, to believe not just in God, but in a God who wishes fellowship with me. That God is a God who both created the universe, and also had a plan that included me as an individual human being. And that he has made it possible for me, through this series of explorations, to realize that. It is not just a philosophy, it is a reality of a relationship." The Question of God . Other Voices . Francis Collins | PBS

It has been my experience that Christianity brings things into focus and balance intellectually and emotionally. A Christian's thoughts and desires are tailored over time to an eternal perspective and agenda that are both universal and personal in scope.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Methinks it is a mistake to assume a person of faith has "made up bizarre chains of fanasy to justify it".

That's what it looks like to me, but it's not an assumption, it's a conclusion based on decades of examining the claims and trying to make sense of them. Far as I can tell they have no basis in reality, they're pure fabrication.

 

[darkbeaver]

I disagree, certainly they are fabrication but it's not pure owing to the additional gross forgery and wholesale expropriation.

 

[Cliffy]

I disagree, certainly they are fabrication but it's not pure owing to the additional gross forgery and wholesale expropriation.

Perhaps you could explain that for those who worship such gross forgery and wholesale expropriation. Simple modern English would help those so intellectually challenged.

 

[cj44]

That's what it looks like to me, but it's not an assumption, it's a conclusion based on decades of examining the claims and trying to make sense of them. Far as I can tell they have no basis in reality, they're pure fabrication.

Dexter, Yes, that is what a person that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit would conclude. The following from Kretzmann commentary in regards to the scripture passage I posted.


By way of contrast, Paul refers to the un-spiritual: But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; the unregenerate person, even at his best, rejects the gifts and benefits which the Holy Ghost wants to bestow upon him; his is not merely a neutral, an apathetic feeling, but one of outspoken hostility: he wants nothing to do with them. For folly they are to him, and he cannot perceive them, for a person's estimate of them must proceed from the spiritual side. Where, therefore, there is not a spark of spirituality, where the Spirit of God has not been able to work regeneration, there every human being's judgment will insist upon the utter senselessness of the Gospel-message. "The Gospel appears on trial before the natural men; like the Athenian philosophers, they give it a first hearing, but they have no organon (rule of guidance) to test it by. The inquiry is stultified, at the very beginning, by the incompetence of the jury. The unspiritual are out of court as religious critics; they are deaf men judging music." "The natural man receiveth not (or, as the Greek word properly signifies, grasps not, comprehends not, accepts not) the things of the Spirit, that is, he is not capable of spiritual things; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them. Much less will he truly believe the Gospel, or assent thereto and regard it as truth." 18)

Perhaps you could explain that for those who worship such gross forgery and wholesale expropriation. Simple modern English would help those so intellectually challenged.

You tell him, Cliffy.


SAY WHAT?????, Mr. Beaver

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I applaud your haughtiness, villainy, and malice. There is nothing to surpass you.

Bah ha ha Take it easy T-Bones. Maybe someday you will say something you regret....maybe...

Well, then, you'll be in heaven and I'll be in hell and we won't bother each other none.

 

[cj44]

Well, then, you'll be in heaven and I'll be in hell and we won't bother each other none.

What fun would that be?

 

[darkbeaver]

Perhaps you could explain that for those who worship such gross forgery and wholesale expropriation. Simple modern English would help those so intellectually challenged.

Yes certainly but lettuce have compassion for the followers of the invented meat bag Jesus. You wouldn't be cruel to children would you? Of course you wouldn't. Where was I before I interrupted myself, blah blah blah, oh yes here I am, every word of the forgery known as the Holy Bible was already known and in wide circulation and practice at least five thousand years before the alleged birth of a child by artificial insemination. In every case, no matter the biblical passage, we find it's antecedent copy, Egyptian, Babylonian, Chaldean, Sumerian, Hindu, Greek the list is as long as the nations and cultures of the times. Of course the modern christian clings to a novelty that simply does not exist and never for one second ever did. In addition to that the reason why the two thousand year reign of complete ignorance exists at all is the systematic destruction of all contrary literature where ever and whenever it was found by those same self appointed saved wretches who by their devotions to gross error brought about the famous dark ages, which we are even now at this time in our passage still trying to climb out of. It has been supposed by literally hundreds of scholars of the period in question that this poor excuse for religion has through it's insane propositions and brutal efforts cost the planet at least two thousand years of pillage rape and the blackest ignorance ever known or imagined by man at any time in history that we are aware of.
Still we are obliged by true enlightenment to avoid ugly confrontations with the Zombie worshiping luniacs in the interest of peace and harmony. Rest assured their time has come and gone, we have been saved by historical evidences that the illiterate mobs of vermin could not and did not carry away with the rest of the looted riches. Still, remembering our vows, to abstain from backhanding and throttling we practice the advised patients of our ancient advisers. Take one to dinner, be kind, pat their heads.

And no I'm already in hell according to the scriptures so don't bother threatening me with reality.

foot knote, just the other knight I was reading an old news paper from Rome in which an article from the sports page reported that the starving lions spat christians out, so bad was the taste of the unwashed rabble.

I am an old time christian baptized by the moon and the sun and the stars.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter, Yes, that is what a person that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit would conclude. ...

You're beginning to edge over toward patronizing and insulting people who disagree with you. I know of no reason to think there's any such thing as the Holy Spirit and I have no wish to be regenerated by it, whatever that might mean. Is there no possibility you could be wrong about any of this?

 

[cj44]

You're beginning to edge over toward patronizing and insulting people who disagree with you. I know of no reason to think there's any such thing as the Holy Spirit and I have no wish to be regenerated by it, whatever that might mean. Is there no possibility you could be wrong about any of this?

Dexter, My intent is not to communicate insults. I apply these same thoughts to myself and in fact found them to be true prior to becoming a Christian. You ask if there is a possibility I could be wrong about this. Of course, I may be wrong. Though, based on fellow Christians testimonies and mine, I believe what I say to be true. I believe Christians to be new creations with a spiritual sense. This spiritual sense was not something I had prior to becoming a Christian.

 

[Cliffy]

Dexter, My intent is not to communicate insults. I apply these same thoughts to myself and in fact found them to be true prior to becoming a Christian. You ask if there is a possibility I could be wrong about this. Of course, I may be wrong. Though, based on fellow Christians testimonies and mine, I believe what I say to be true. I believe Christians to be new creations with a spiritual sense. This spiritual sense was not something I had prior to becoming a Christian.

But no one but real Christian could possibly have had the same enlightening experience and have come to a very different understanding, right? Other religions could not have experienced the holy spook or they would have denounced their beliefs and embraced yours? This si precisely the sort of arrogance that turns people off to born againers.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You're beginning to edge over toward patronizing and insulting people who disagree with you. I know of no reason to think there's any such thing as the Holy Spirit and I have no wish to be regenerated by it, whatever that might mean. Is there no possibility you could be wrong about any of this?

"Beginning?" You should see what he had to say to me.

It's OK. Paradigm rejection really bugs true believers.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dexter, My intent is not to communicate insults.

Yes I know, your intent is to be helpful, but proselytizing rarely comes across that way, particularly when you post citations from supposed authorities who clearly state that lack of faith in a particular dogma is due to some personal failure in the person who lacks it. It's not, it's just a different understanding of the world, and one at least as defensible as you find yours to be.

However, since you've conceded at least the possibility that you might be wrong, the obvious question is, what would it take to convince you you're wrong? And if I'm going to ask you that, you could reasonably ask me the same, so I'll answer it now. It would take a clearly and unequivocally miraculous event that admits of no other possible explanation but the supernatural. I can even give you an example. In moments of levity I'm likely to say something like, it'd take the appearance of a big pointing finger coming out of the clouds and a booming voice intoning, "You're WROOONNNGGG!" But I'll be a little more serious here.

My mother was a serious believer. She died 9 years ago, and one of the last conversations I had with her about this sort of thing involved her manifesting herself to me after her death. She was sure she could do it, she was convinced dad, who died a decade before she did, was doing it for her. I was equally sure she could not, so we worked out an arrangement to find out. She would have to appear before me and at least two other witnesses, to minimize the possibility of hallucination, we would all have to be sober and alert at the time, and all agree on the details of what we saw.

I probably don't need to tell you nothing remotely like that ever happened.

Here's another one that'd convince me. Get together as many people of like mind as yourself as you can and all of you pray seriously and earnestly for something as selfless and meaningful as you can think of like, for example, the remission of all childhood cancers, or the healing of all children crippled by multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy. If that works, I'll be convinced.

You know as well as I do what'll happen: nothing. And apropos of that, since the scriptures clearly say prayers will be answered, ask and it shall be given and all that, why would not that failure convince you you're wrong?