Gestopo shows up in Oshawa now.

[gerryh]

hmmm.

My main question.... How are the marked security guards 'plainclothes police'?

Read the entire article, it states it in there... here I'll even paste the pertinent part.

Councillors unaware of police presence
Several councillors told CBC News they weren't made aware ahead of the meeting that plainclothes officers would be in the public gallery.
Durham Regional Police spokesperson David Selby said they don't typically send plainclothes officers to council meetings but decided to last night.


Notice that the Police actually admit to having plain clothes officers in the meeting. Does that answer your question now?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

The question this issue raises is do we really care about the responsibility it takes to have an actual democracy, or do we just want the illusion. It takes real effort and sometimes sacrifice. The fellow in this episode may not have handled it the best, but at least he was there trying to assert some basic right to accountability.

If enough people avoid that then we won't even have the illusion of freedom much longer, just look at where abuses of power eventually lead. It's a sliding scale and ends up in a place where the term Gestapo is applicable. Do we really want to wait until it's official that we have no right at all to protest when other citizens assert rights far beyond ours simply because they think they can get away with it?

 

[gerryh]

The question this issue raises is do we really care about the responsibility it takes to have an actual democracy, or do we just want the illusion. It takes real effort and sometimes sacrifice. The fellow in this episode may not have handled it the best, but at least he was there trying to assert some basic right to accountability.

If enough people avoid that then we won't even have the illusion of freedom much longer, just look at where abuses of power eventually lead. It's a sliding scale and ends up in a place where the term Gestapo is applicable. Do we really want to wait until it's official that we have no right at all to protest when other citizens assert rights far beyond ours simply because they think they can get away with it?

Obviously the Mayor feels that he should NOT be held accountable and anyone that questions his decisions get's their a$$ booted out.

 

[karrie]

That's your main question?

You don't have a problem with how the confrontation started in the first place?.

As soon as I see someone in a uniform jacket with 'security' written on it, being called 'plainclothes police', I question the validity of the entire article. So, yes, it's my main question. How is someone in a blazer with 'security' written on it, a plainclothes police officer? What police force does the officer who abused the man serve on? Is he local police? Or RCMP? Provincial Sheriff? Why can the camera see his badge, but no one else?

And downchecks are pretty much childish Karrie.

Yes.... they are given where they are warranted. Feel free to take it up with the moderation if you've got a problem with it. I'll be more than happy to report your post instead of giving it a thumbs down.

Notice that the Police actually admit to having plain clothes officers in the meeting. Does that answer your question now?

See above... I don't get how he's 'plainclothes' when his blazer has a security badge.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

We're supposedly a civil society, the thing I find really disturbing is the guy was basically attacked for standing up for his right to protest abusive government, if we don't have any way to do that where does it end?

And I find it slightly disturbing that you either know nothing about the Gestapo, or are so foolish as to compare this to the Gestapo.

 

[SLM]

You're not excused.

There's no excuse for this kind of thing, just how do you think societies get to the point where entire segments of the population get slated for oppression or even removal, it's one step at a time. And as surprising as it is I now live in a Canada where the government doesn't listen to the people anymore and the authorities actively work in ways that are doing us harm, possibly great harm.

From your own OP.

This....

A man was asked to leave a city council meeting in Oshawa and told the plaincloths police officer standing above him to step back so he could get up. When he did the guy jumped him and his partner joined in. Now cops are attacking citizens at council meetings. I don't think the session was even underway and the guy clapped ironically or something.

Oshawa City Council Brawl Leads To Assault Charges (VIDEOS)

...is what you take out of this (that you specifically quoted from the article in your OP).

At last night's meeting council was considering the findings of an investigation by the auditor general that raised concerns that city staff had misled council about a land deal.


At the end of the long meeting council voted to eliminate the auditor general's position by the end of this week.


Marimpietri said he's been in office for a decade and never witnessed a citizen being treated that way for clapping during a meeting.
"Clapping doesn't constitute a violation in which someone has to be choked out, taken down and thrown out of council chambers," he said.

As opposed to what should really be a concern, which is this part...

At last night's meeting council was considering the findings of an investigation by the auditor general that raised concerns that city staff had misled council about a land deal.

At the end of the long meeting council voted to eliminate the auditor general's position by the end of this week.


Marimpietri said he's been in office for a decade and never witnessed a citizen being treated that way for clapping during a meeting.
"Clapping doesn't constitute a violation in which someone has to be choked out, taken down and thrown out of council chambers," he said.

...not whether or not someone was ejected from a meeting for being disruptive.


But by all means, let's all continue to focus on one man being ejected from council chambers, who may or may not have been disruptive. (If he wasn't, then by all means he was removed erroneously, if he was, then he should have been made to leave.) And, further, lets continue to compare this one incident with one of the most oppressive regimes in the history of man. I mean, being ejected from a city council meeting is virtually the same thing as being herded up and marched off to the ovens, right?


Further, we can then also continue to ignore the part where the city council of Oshawa has removed one of the most integral of positions when it comes to oversights, transparency and accountability. So what if by focusing on the removal of the citizen we are effectively aiding the council by giving them a chance to rely on this distraction? So what if this is perhaps one of the reasons why the irate citizen was possibly even there? I'm sure he doesn't care that what may have prompted him to attend the meeting in the first place is being categorically ignored in favour of an opportunity to compare the police authority in Oshawa, Ontario with the police authority of Nazi Germany.



Please, please do continue to obsfucate the real and actual problems we are or may be facing in our cities, provinces or nations by making such drastic and exaggerated comparisons. Because that's working so very well.

So keep your snide BS to yourself if you don't have anything to add that's different from the abusive crap we're getting in ever increasing amounts from on high,

If you have such an aversion to snide commentary, I'd suggest you not make any then.

 

[Nuggler]

I think "Gestapo" is a little overdone if the guy is ever seen again.

He iss now rresting peacefully.

 

[captain morgan]

Ahem- Getting under your skin am I?

Well Goobs; you are a s l u t afterall.

(btw - I never woulda suspected)

At least he posted something that didn't involve Harper.

Wait for it... You know that the Harper conspiracy-angle is the coup de gras that is in the process of being delivered.

And, further, lets continue to compare this one incident with one of the most oppressive regimes in the history of man.

That is exactly what ideologues do when the systems and results of the democratic process don't go their way.

Did you notice how the references to a 'crooked land deal' and 'abusive government' are carefully woven into the plot?... Ironic that this man's version of disruption/abuse is considered heroic despite it stepping on the very democracy that CK demands

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

And I find it slightly disturbing that you either know nothing about the Gestapo, or are so foolish as to compare this to the Gestapo.

It was a sister to the Sicherheitspolizei originally formed by Herman Goering from the Prussian police from what I remember. Basically a secret police used to scare and and eliminate the opponents of the Nazi state. It also operated in occupied territories and was involved in the Holocaust.

And as this is a question of a person having their right to openly express opposition to the abuse of power by elected officials in what's supposed to be a free and open society I think it's an applicable comparison.

What would you call physically assaulting someone for voicing opposition at a city council meeting.

As far as I'm concerned this is Nazi BS.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It was a sister to the Sicherheitspolizei originally formed by Herman Goering from the Prussian police from what I remember. Basically a secret police used to scare and and eliminate the opponents of the Nazi state. It also operated in occupied territories and was involved in the Holocaust.

And as this is a question of a person having their right to openly express opposition to the abuse of power by elected officials in what's supposed to be a free and open society I think it's an applicable comparison.

What would you call physically assaulting someone for voicing opposition at a city council meeting.

As far as I'm concerned this is Nazi BS.

Godwin's Law.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

And watching the video the other people present at the meeting weren't talking about the behaviour of the guys protesting the city council actions, they were saying the guy was trying to leave and to stop attacking him.

It's not like this is an isolated event, we're seeing more and more of organized and spontaneous use of force by the police against citizens. We're also witnessing the destruction of many of the democratic structures that are there to ensure our freedoms.

This kind of episode sends a clear message, opposition won't be tolerated. You won't have real access to power through a real democratic process anymore and when you protest that fact you'll have a bat shoved up your ***(figuratively or otherwise). So for instance if you go to protest the much greater coordination of North American states that will probably inevitably lead to one political entity(at the SPP conference), you face undercover cops dressed as anarchists throwing rocks at the riot police to get them to attack the genuine peaceful protesters. Or if you go to the G20 summit in Toronto to protest the ever increasing control of the world by unaccountable corporations with the aid of governments that are increasingly out of touch with their citizens once again you probably face police dressed as anarchists who engage in violent acts to justify harsh police actions that saw over 1,000 mostly peaceful demonstrators arrested and millions of dollars of damage, not to mention over $1 billion dollars in cost for the whole fiasco.

And now it's getting down to the civic level where you can get the **** kicked out of you for clapping when city council makes what is clearly a self interested act that's in contravention of any real ethics.

DO we wait until there is no avenue to voice opposition to acts that effectively remove our freedoms?

I think we're pretty much there already, show me how the average citizen has any real access to power and voice in this country any longer. Or any real freedom and safety in the face of decisions that deeply affect our future.

 

[Zipperfish]

As soon as I see someone in a uniform jacket with 'security' written on it, being called 'plainclothes police', I question the validity of the entire article. So, yes, it's my main question. How is someone in a blazer with 'security' written on it, a plainclothes police officer? What police force does the officer who abused the man serve on? Is he local police? Or RCMP? Provincial Sheriff? Why can the camera see his badge, but no one else?

My understanding is that there were private security staff there as well at least one plainsclothes peace officer. Plainclothes means not in uniform. Plainsclothes do not usually wear their badge, as that would kind of defeat the purpose. They do, however, have to identify themselves as police officers when undertaking enforcement activities, which they would do by prodcuing their badge (if they have time; otherwise they would just yell "Police.")

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Godwin's Law.

No it's history.

And the kind of absolutist political control we're beginning to see in this country and many other places isn't static, it seems to be increasing every day.

At what point do we concede that we no longer have any real control over the decisions that can decide our very future. I think we're already there.

 

[karrie]

My understanding is that there were private security staff there as well at least one plainsclothes peace officer. Plainclothes means not in uniform. Plainsclothes do not usually wear their badge, as that would kind of defeat the purpose. They do, however, have to identify themselves as police officers when undertaking enforcement activities, which they would do by prodcuing their badge (if they have time; otherwise they would just yell "Police.")

Cobalt's OP, says that a plainclothes police officer was standing with the man, and assaulted him when he tried to stand up. The man was clearly marked security. He can answer my questions I'm sure.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

No it's history.

And the kind of absolutist political control we're beginning to see in this country and many other places isn't static, it seems to be increasing every day.

At what point do we concede that we no longer have any real control over the decisions that can decide our very future. I think we're already there.

You've already conceded it. Otherwise, you'd be doing more than throwing a hissy fit on the internet.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Cobalt's OP, says that a plainclothes police officer was standing with the man, and assaulted him when he tried to stand up. The man was clearly marked security. He can answer my questions I'm sure.

That's not the issue that concerns me, the central issue that I see with this is that the man was essentially assaulted at a city council meeting for voicing opposition to actions taken by the city council. He was asked to leave, he stated he was leaving and when he bent down to put on his shoes or whatever he was doing he was attacked. Then the other security jumped in.

This sends a chilling message to anyone who might want to voice opposition to politicians who are supposed to represent us. We already see far too much abuse of power at every level in this country and now it's down to the civic level and there seems to be no effective counterbalance. "Elected" officials seem more than willing and able to assert their interests by force.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Nightmare Moon - The night will last forever - YouTube

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

You've already conceded it. Otherwise, you'd be doing more than throwing a hissy fit on the internet.

So I'm passionate about it, I care about what this country stands for having been here for 50 years and knowing more than few people who actually went out and fought the states that made this kind of thing common practice.

I'd rather be passionate about standing for something than so apathetic I couldn't care less about the destruction of what is a deeply valuable legacy.

Not saying anything for appearances sake is futile.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

So I'm passionate about it, I care about what this country stands for having been here for 50 years and knowing more than few people who actually went out and fought the states that made this kind of thing common practice.

I'd rather be passionate about standing for something than so apathetic I couldn't care less about the destruction of what is a deeply valuable legacy.

Not saying anything for appearances sake is futile.

You're not passionate, you're hysterical. And you believe that screaming "NAAAAAAZIIIIIIS" on the internet and engaging in absurd hyperbole will be effective.

Good luck with that.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Cobalt's OP, says that a plainclothes police officer was standing with the man, and assaulted him when he tried to stand up. The man was clearly marked security. He can answer my questions I'm sure.

Once again, that's not the issue that concerns me or what this subject is about. It's about our right to speak truth to power without suffering physical harm which should be a central character of any truly open state.

This man wasn't disrupting a legitimate council session he was ironically applauding the cynical actions of the council of eliminating an auditor who was investigating them. And he was physically assaulted for it after agreeing to leave.

This isn't about elected officials acting in good faith in our interests, it's about how they're abusing their positions in self interest and using the powers that come with that position to impose their idea of order.