Is it necessary for cops to use lethal force against a guy with a knife?

[SLM]

I'd wager that the cops will say that he would be an imminent danger until he was securely restrained

Lol, well of course they're going to say that, they shot him.

I'm not one coming from a position of anti-cop bias, I honestly believe that the majority of times that an officer has to draw his weapon and fire are probably very justifiable and legitimate. This particular incident is questionable though. But even at that, there still may have been a justifiable reason why the trigger was pulled. However, given the excess number of shots fired (hello, overkill), I think that makes the potential justification more improbable.

 

[hunboldt]

Great - so why didn't the bus driver go on and have a heart-to-heart with the kid... He was only a past threat, right?

CM. the TTC driver did a pretty good job just getting everyone off the Streetcar and immobilising the unit.
That said, riot gas is pretty effective at subduing resistance,, having had a whiff of pepper spray in the , uhh, past.

I am assuming that the TCP restocked after the G20 conference...

 

[captain morgan]

You're intentionally stretching my meaning to the absurd.

Only because you are stating that there was no ongoing threat simply because no one was sitting beside him... Read below and in order to arrest buddy, someone has to get themselves squarely into that sphere of danger

He couldn't have killed anyone from where he stood, yet they shot him dead. Unless there is something that happened hidden from the camera, they're in the wrong.

How close does a cop have to get to the guy brandishing a knife to slap on the bracelets?

Lol, well of course they're going to say that, they shot him.

Fair enough - let me ask you the same question that Karrie is ducking: How close to a guy threatening cops with a knife does someone have to get to arrest them before they are a threat?

 

[karrie]

Only because you are stating that there was no ongoing threat simply because no one was sitting beside him... Read below and in order to arrest buddy, someone has to get themselves squarely into that sphere of danger



How close does a cop have to get to the guy brandishing a knife to slap on the bracelets?




Fair enough - let me ask you the same question that Karrie is ducking: How close to a guy threatening cops with a knife does someone have to get to arrest them before they are a threat?

So, the only options available to the cops were to rush up and arrest him right that moment, or shoot him dead? Why is that exactly?

 

[lone wolf]

CM. the TTC driver did a pretty good job just getting everyone off the Streetcar and immobilising the unit.
That said, riot gas is pretty effective at subduing resistance,, having had a whiff of pepper spray in the , uhh, past.

I am assuming that the TCP restocked after the G20 conference...

Heck, if it's just a "two or three" inch blade, toss one of those kevlar vests his way. Cops say the danger wasn't over. I say BS. You-lie-and-I'll-swear-to-it is in Coverup 101

 

[captain morgan]

So, the only options available to the cops were to rush up and arrest him right that moment, or shoot him dead? Why is that exactly?

How close does someone have to get to a guy brandishing a knife to arrest them?

If he was no threat, why aren't you demanding that the bus driver go and defuse the situation?

 

[karrie]

How close does someone have to get to a guy brandishing a knife to arrest them?

If he was no threat, why aren't you demanding that the bus driver go and defuse the situation?

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[captain morgan]

Reductio ad absurdum.

.. And still no answer... Funny how that works, eh?

 

[karrie]

Of course no answer, because he didn't have to be arrested at that exact moment. He was alone on the bus, surrounded by armed police officers. He posed no threat that warranted pumping him full of lead, from what we see on the video.

 

[lone wolf]

.. And still no answer... Funny how that works, eh?

'Cuz you're just too ridiculous to be bothered with

 

[SLM]

Fair enough - let me ask you the same question that Karrie is ducking: How close to a guy threatening cops with a knife does someone have to get to arrest them before they are a threat?

There's been a lot made about this 25 foot 'rule of thumb', which I can buy, it doesn't seem unreasonable. If a person wielding a knife is within 25 feet of an officer, that person could reasonably be construed as being an imminent threat. Out in the open. There was a streetcar between the knife wielding guy and the police. If there was a distance of 25 feet or less, it was the police that established that since the kid was stationary inside the streetcar and they were approaching on foot.

Look, if this kid tried to rush out the door, pulling the trigger would be reasonable. If he reached down and it could be reasonably assumed that he might be reaching for a gun, then it's reasonable to pull the trigger. When someone is contained though,as this kid did seem to be at the time of the shooting, I would expect that they would attempt a dialogue with him or that negotiators would be brought in to try to talk him into giving up.

Cooler heads probably should have prevailed.That's my opinion on all this based on what information we have so far anyway.

 

[JLM]

'Cuz you're just too ridiculous to be bothered with

Hey, I think you are on to something.- I've been trying to convey that message (in a nice way) for years, but I don't think I've been penetrating.

From what I can see about this situation I think there was a good chance that once everyone had left the streetcar, the crisis was over. The kid probably should have just been left alone for a few minutes (while being carefully watched of course) and I think there was a good chance he'd have come to his senses on his own without someone trying to escalate the situation by confronting him and putting cuffs on him.

 

[lone wolf]

It would really suck if the kid was just stoned, remorseful and saying suicide....

 

[Locutus]

CM. the TTC driver did a pretty good job just getting everyone off the Streetcar and immobilising the unit.

According to witnesses the guy pulled the knife and ordered everyone off the streetcar.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It would really suck if the kid was just stoned, remorseful and saying suicide....

Well, if he was suicidal, he got what he wanted.

 

[Christianna]

if someone has a heart attack, can tasering restart the heart?

Not with a bullet or two in it.

 

[lone wolf]

Not with a bullet or two in it.

Then you worry about lead poisoning....

 

[coldstream]

There is a gang mentality that has taken over modern policing. You see it all the time on shows like COPS... and it can resemble mob 'justice'.

Police descend on situations with massive over-reaction.. like a pack of wolves in some cases for situations that could be better handled with some tact. The intention is to utterly disorient and immobilize the individual.. which in as many situations as not causes a reaction as the subject becomes confused, enraged and humiliated... remember the Robert Dziekański tasering death at Vancouver International Airport.

Good policing used to involve some artistry, flexibility and strategy to defuse potentially dangerous confrontations.. and certainly commensurate force. That's not the playbook now.. it is overwhelming force and an assumption that the officers lives are in imminent danger even when there is no basis for that.

Now a man with a knife is a definite threat. But given the distance, the weapon, the bulletproof vests on the police, his not harming of other individuals and the character of a clearly mentally unstable individual.. this could have been handled with less than deadly force.

Tackling or Tasers OR shooting to wound, which has been removed from the police protocols.. if you shoot now, you shoot to kill.. could have been used.

I'd refer you to the situation in Montreal in the last couple of days where a man (likely on crack) went on a rampage on the street, beating to death an elderly woman.. but was brought under control with less than lethal force... that's good policing. What the Toronto police did was target practice with live ammo on a live target.

There are good police.. but there are some who just want to put a notch on their pistol grip.

 

[Goober]

Images taken from security video show Sammy Yatim in the streetcar (top left), where he was when he was shot (top right), him collapsing after being shot (bottom left) and where he was when the second round of gunfire went off (bottom right). .

New security camera footage shows the moment Sammy Yatim was shot by Toronto police | National Post

 

[JLM]

There is a gang mentality that has taken over modern policing. You see it all the time on shows like COPS.

Police descend on situations with massive over reaction.. like a pack of wolves in somecases for situations that could be better handled with some tact.

That sh*t happens when you have guys like the Capt. egging them on.-