Quebec Language Police Are Mysteriously Drawn to Italian Establishments

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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s_lone your continuing to ignore the facts....
French isnt dying outside of quebec so quit crying wolf

Perhaps not in the short term. But the in the mid to long term that is quite debatable.

The percentage of Canadians who have French as their mother tongue went down about 6% in roughly 50 years. You don't need a math degree to figure out that if the trend continues, 2 or 3 more centuries could easily do the job of nailing the coffin.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/91-003-x/2007001/4129904-eng.htm
 

Johnnny

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Jun 8, 2007
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If you believe those linear plotted consenses then it wont make a difference... If the current trend in immigration conitues, there wont be any english or french in Canada.... And i thought Arizona State was paranoid
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Because language is the backbone of culture and national identity. Lose your language and you lose a significant of the culture that goes with it.

I can agree with that in principle.

Of course you can ask if French is really threatened and to that I'd say that it certainly is in a fragile position, considering the very strong anglophone environment Quebec is a part of. From my point of view, this anglophone environment IS part of what and who we are. After all, we're North American. Canadian French is filled with references to English and that is inevitable, considering the history of francophones in Canada and the socio-cultural environment they live in. But there's a difference between one's language being strongly influenced by another and slow assimilation. The demographic aspect of this is dealt with by legal measures requiring immigrants (and francophones) to send their children to francophone schools.

I can agree to this in principle. However, if we think outside the box, one way to protect a language is of course to give it a higher official status. That's fine if it's the lowest language on the totem pole, otherwise it becomes guilty of what Louis-Jean Calvet refers to as glottophagie in his <<langue et colonialisme>> and in <<la guerre des langues>> by the same author. I don't know if they're available in English but they are definitely well worth the read. <<Vers une ecologie des langues du monde>> by the same author is another one worth reading.

However, if it's not at the bottom of the totem pole, as French certainly isn't, then it's probably better to look at weakening the position of the others at the top. As an example, supposing English and French were gradually replaced by Esperanto at the UN, this would help to weaken the position of English more than it would French, thus reducing the threat of English to French while also reducing the threat of French to the indigenous languages.

Right now I get the impression that the sovereigntists are just as incensitive to indigenous languages as the English are to French.


I'm far from being knowledgable on indigenous issues in general but I'd personally be quite supportive of any attempt to protect and promote their language. I'm pretty sure most people of First Nations would agree that their language is a vital part of their culture.

Precisely. So why should you be so knowledgeable about favouring your language and never really reflected on language justice in a wider context?


Considering at least 80% of Quebecers have French as their mother tongue, the simple principles of democracy makes the choice of the hypothetical country rather obvious.

Majority rule has its limits before it translates into mob rule. Both English and French Canadians are just as guilty of this attitude.

I'm not quite sure how that would translate to the local indigenous language in the hypothetical Quebec scenario. If they'd choose to separate from Quebec, that would no longer be Quebec's concern. If they'd choose to stay we must treat them as fellow citizens and respect their desire to preserve a some form of sovereignty.

And how do you think they feel about Bill 101 on their land?

It's a complex issue and I don't pretend to have answers about it. All I can say is that as a Francophone, I'm willing to defend the principles of our language laws, which certainly doesn't mean they cannot be improved and that they haven't sometimes been applied stupidly.

As a Francophone on my mom's side and anglophone on my dad's, I don't even want my languages to be official at the UN. As far as I'm concerned, the only just solution would be an easty-to-learn international auxiliary language that all learn as a commom second language. Anything else is mere glottophagie.

As I said, you certainly won't see me fighting against the protection of indigenous language.

So, would you support an Algonquin Bill 101 in Gatineau?

Perhaps not in the short term. But the in the mid to long term that is quite debatable.

The percentage of Canadians who have French as their mother tongue went down about 6% in roughly 50 years. You don't need a math degree to figure out that if the trend continues, 2 or 3 more centuries could easily do the job of nailing the coffin.

Canadian Demographics at a Glance: Some facts about the demographic and ethnocultural composition of the population

And the Official Languages Act and Bill 101 are killing off indigenous languages at an unprecedented rate. Do you still support such legislation?

Come to think of it, as a test of sincerity and respect for all cultures and not just one's own, who here would support the UN gradually replace French and English by an international auxiliary language at the UN as a sign of friendship towards the indigenous peoples?

I would in a heartbeat, simply as a sign of respect for the people who've welcomed us to this land.
Different view of language relations I guess. Not about claiming land for our small group, but rather trying to build bridges to all groups. I don't know if being a Franco-Ontarian plays a role in this but I don't think so since from my observations most franco-Ontarians still think like Quebecers and Anglophones.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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I can agree to this in principle. However, if we think outside the box, one way to protect a language is of course to give it a higher official status. That's fine if it's the lowest language on the totem pole, otherwise it becomes guilty of what Louis-Jean Calvet refers to as glottophagie in his <<langue et colonialisme>> and in <<la guerre des langues>> by the same author. I don't know if they're available in English but they are definitely well worth the read. <<Vers une ecologie des langues du monde>> by the same author is another one worth reading.

Sounds like an interesting read. Considering my mother tongue is French I'd much rather read it in French than any English translation. Will check it out.

However, if it's not at the bottom of the totem pole, as French certainly isn't, then it's probably better to look at weakening the position of the others at the top. As an example, supposing English and French were gradually replaced by Esperanto at the UN, this would help to weaken the position of English more than it would French, thus reducing the threat of English to French while also reducing the threat of French to the indigenous languages.

Certainly sounds good in theory. But how realist is it to try to establish a language such as Esperanto as a form of neutral ground for humanity as a whole?

Right now I get the impression that the sovereigntists are just as incensitive to indigenous languages as the English are to French.

Unfortunately I think you're right in saying that most sovereigntists haven't given much thought to the issue. I believe Native issues are often a big blind spot in the sovereigntist rhetoric.


Precisely. So why should you be so knowledgeable about favouring your language and never really reflected on language justice in a wider context?

Good point. I'll be back to discuss this more but I'm limited with my time right now...
 

Machjo

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Certainly sounds good in theory. But how realist is it to try to establish a language such as Esperanto as a form of neutral ground for humanity as a whole?

I'd learnt Esperanto to fluency within 300 hours (probably closer to 100 hours) of self instruction with nothing more than a self-instruction book and a dictionary. Of course I'm sure the same would likely aplly to any international auxiliary language.

At the end of the day, the only obstacle is will on the part of the people. If the majority insists that it has a God-given right to not have to learn a second language to meet others halfway then it won't work. In the end, it's a matter of changing attitudes. But I think if any conscientious indi

Good point. I'll be back to discuss this more but I'm limited with my time right now...

Looking forward to it whenever you have a chance.

Also, since you know English too, you can look up some of the writings of Robert Phillipson, including "Linguistic Imperialism", English-Only Europe: Challenging Language Policy", among others. Mark Fettes is in Canada and some of his works might be of interest too, along with Francois Vaillancourt from Montreal and Francois Grin from Geneva.

Plenty of good reads on the subject.

There is also Lament for a Notion by Scott Rread. That one is far more superficial and overlooks all kinds of points, but as a more populist book it still has ideas for moderate improvement if combined with other supplementary ideas.

What would that mean? Would it be only in the reserves or would it apply to everyone living in Gatineau?

When I said it, I meant all of Gatineau, mostly just to make us think of how an Algonquin might feel about Bill 101 on Algonquin soil on or off reserve. Again, I understand French speakers are the majority there, but I'm sure you see the problem with assuming that the majority ought to have carte blanche to do what it wants.
 

petros

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Isn't that what started the problem? Well, it was the British who invaded New France, but same idea.
France was having trouble building a population in New France because it was too flippin' cold. It was doomed from the begining under the French.
 

Machjo

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France was having trouble building a population in New France because it was too flippin' cold. It was doomed from the begining under the French.

Still, the British taking New france has led to many of the conflicts of today.
 

Johnnny

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Quebec Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep thoise British sure did screw things up in Quebec after the Plains of Abraham.....From the looks of it, Quebec got a better deal than the natives and still they cry...
 

Johnnny

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You can't say the English have not been arrogant too though, which is a significant contributing factor to teh problems today.

Your correct, that the problem is perpetuated by both sides....... Ontario was pretty bad back in the day.... I know this because ive read all about our history.... But we(ontario) are coming around and in a big way.....
 

Machjo

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Actually, instead of French and English Canadians always bashing one another, what could we propose to promote more justice?

For instance, would it really hurt for a person to contribute by learning an international auxiliary language like Esperanto? What's the worst that could happen if Canadians proposed that the UN replace English and French by Esperanto as an official language? Would it really hurt to at least weaken the provisions of the Official Languages Act and Bill 101? Honestly.
 

Johnnny

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Actually, instead of French and English Canadians always bashing one another, what could we propose to promote more justice?

For instance, would it really hurt for a person to contribute by learning an international auxiliary language like Esperanto? What's the worst that could happen if Canadians proposed that the UN replace English and French by Esperanto as an official language? Would it really hurt to at least weaken the provisions of the Official Languages Act and Bill 101? Honestly.

The problem with esperanto is that in my pinion it sounds too synthetic... Also too not alot of peole are learning it outside of europe anyways, so english is better for communication at the international level...
 

Machjo

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The problem with esperanto is that in my pinion it sounds too synthetic... Also too not alot of peole are learning it outside of europe anyways, so english is better for communication at the international level...

I'm fluent in both languages and French. So I'll ask, how is Esperanto 'synthetic'?

As for international communication, there is already evidence that Esperanto is far more efficient than English:

L'enseignement des langues étrangères comme politique publique - Rapports publics - La Documentation française

According to the document in the link above, replacing English by Esperanto as Europe's common second language coudl save the Eu up to 25 thousand million euros yearly, mainly owing to its greater ease of learning, measured by some studies as being multiple times easier to learn than other languages.

There is also evidence that just English spelling alone has economic costs:

The English Spelling Society
The Spelling Society

If we go by any rational or scientific argument, it's clear that the easier a language is to learn, the less expensive it will be to teach and learn, the higher the rate of bilingualism in that language, and therefore the less the burden will be on translators and interpretors across the economy. Though there is research that crunches numbers on this, even in the absence of such research the principle is obvious enough.
 

Johnnny

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I checked it out and it just seemed to be a mash of different languages..... If it it were going to be unique it shouldnt be ripping off other languages worse than english....

And also too for an international language it just rips off of other western european countries... It would better to keep esperanto in western europe...

If were going to learn an easy language, lets learn Indonesian... Its very easy and more people speak it over a broader area.... It would be more practical to speak indonesian because i would probally meet more indonesians that esperantians...
 

Machjo

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I checked it out and it just seemed to be a mash of different languages..... If it it were going to be unique it shouldnt be ripping off other languages worse than english....

Words of multiple language sources is actually an advantage since it means more people can recognize words in it.

And also too for an international language it just rips off of other western european countries... It would better to keep esperanto in western europe...

It is mostly European, granted, but still better than anything else that can be proposed at present until a better language is created.

If were going to learn an easy language, lets learn Indonesian... Its very easy and more people speak it over a broader area.... It would be more practical to speak indonesian because i would probally meet more indonesians that esperantians...

Indonesian would be another candidate. Interestingly enough, over 99% of Indonesians speak the language even though fewer than 1% actually speak it as a mother tongue. Same concept as Esperanto: a language that was designed to be easy to learn. And with over 100 indigenous languages in Indonesia, Bahasa Indonesia shows clear proof of the efficiency of a well-planned (i.e. rational spelling, grammar, etc.) international auxiliary language. Also, like Esperanto, Bahasa Indonesia too incorporates words from many languages.

What is clear is that Indonesian language policy is not only far more economically efficient than Canadian official bilingualism, but more importantly, more equitable too.
 

Machjo

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Looks like i helped prove your point :)

Question is, would Canada be willing to turn to Indonesia for ideas to reform our language policy and the UN's? I don't know much about Indonesia's human rights record overall, but when it comes to language policy, show me another country that has managed to make 99% of the population fluent in a language that fewer than 1% speak as a mother tongue? Canada could only hope to achieve results even a fraction that impressive with official French and English.

I think part of the reason is in fact that Indonesia chose to adopt a more rational policy, whereas Canada was all about mythology like the 'two founding races' and whatnot'.
 

Cliffy

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When the Borg get here this will be a mute debate. The French should be thankful that the Brits were not like the Borg and forced them to assimilate. They have their language (as bastardized as it is) so what is the problem? I don't know why the last Quebec Liberal government didn't repeal this stupid law. But then, I think it is another great smokescreen issue where everybody gets their emotional panties in a twist to keep them from noticing the real crap that is going on.