Quebec Language Police Are Mysteriously Drawn to Italian Establishments

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Ottawa, ON
Because the linguistic majority of Quebec (francophones) which are a linguistic minority in Canada have chosen to use their democracy to give themselves laws that promote and impose the use of French (our official language) on Quebec's population as a whole.

Some would call it mob rule.

Because of the fact that English is such a strong influence and that the absence of laws would clearly play out in the disfavour of French in the long term, these laws are needed to reestablish some form of balance.

Again, a simple solution would be to have the UN gradually replace French and English by Esperanto or some other international auxiliary language. Though French would lose some worldwide power, English wold lose much more power, and so remove the English threat to French while also making French no longer a threat to other cultures. A truly civilized people promotes universal justice, not just its own best interests.

The way I understand it is that the majority in Quebec don't accept the idea of unrestrained multiculturalism. We need some form of cultural standards that structure the many freedoms and responsibilities we have as citizens.

Well then they should have stayed in France. So what you're saying is most Quebecers are no better than most English Canadians in that they want to assimilate the minority indigenous population through the use of political muscle, right or wrong.

Here's an example that doesn't have to do with language. All children must follow the course ''Éthique et culture religieuse'' in classes from primary to secondary school. The idea is that whatever background you are from, you are expected to have a basic understanding of the diversity of religious and cultural trends that inhabit our history and society. Whether you're a Hassidic Jew or an atheist francophone, your child must follow this course and cannot be exempted (at least as far as I know). Are you against this idea?

Not at all, since it
does not impose one religion but teaches about all religions, thus making it universal in nature. French is an ethnic language, not a neutral language like Bahhasa Indonesia or Esperanto for instance.
Do you think this is an attack on individual freedom? Perhaps it is. But I don't personally care because I don't view individual freedom as an ideal that should prevail over democratic choices of a collectivity.

I can agree with the will of the majority to a degree. But a line is crossed once it becomes tyranny of the majority or mob rule. Again, English Canadians are just as guilty of this, don't get me wrong. But I cannot excuse French Canada just because English Canada is just as bad.

And I think it's very good idea that all children be exposed to this information. Of course, this raises the question of when majority rule becomes mob rule and it's a very complex issue. But it's clear to me that the idea of individual freedom ought to be balanced out by the idea of collective choices. My individual freedom may be hindered by the law that says I can't go through a red light as I drive on the road. But most of us accept as a collectivity that in many occasions, individual freedom does need to be hindered for the benefit of the collectivity. The devil is in the details of course!

In terms of choosing whether you drive on a red or green light, that is an imperative necessity to have all agree on one. When it comes to language though, while a common language is needed, it ought to be as unintrusive as possible, and an easy to learn language would intrude far less on indigenous languages than a difficult one like French, thus putting all on a more equal footing.

So coming back to language laws, I can't deny that the majority in Quebec is imposing French on many citizens who would probably not bother about it in the first place. But we also impose many other laws that don't have to do with language. All countries have different laws and have a different balance between the legal do's and don'ts and that's what democracy is at the end of the day... majority rule. If you have a better system I'd like to hear about it.

Again, the difference is in the will of the people. In Indonesia, over 40% of the population speaks Malay as a mother tongue. So why did they choose Bahasa Indonesia instead even though less than 1% speak it as a mother tongue? Simple. Because it was an easier language and so a rational choice to put all on an equal footing. The Malay could have tried to flex their muscle like Canada and Quebec did, but obviously at least on that front they're a little more civilized than we are.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
Learning "french" does no good. My Dad spoke "french" he grew up with fromnorthern Ontario. He also knew parisienne french, and the kebecers acted like they didn't understand him when he spoke either. They expect you to speak quebecois.
 

s_lone

Council Member
Feb 16, 2005
2,233
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Montreal
Some would call it mob rule.

Perhaps it is. But as I've already explained, that's pretty much what democracy has to offer.

Again, a simple solution would be to have the UN gradually replace French and English by Esperanto or some other international auxiliary language. Though French would lose some worldwide power, English wold lose much more power, and so remove the English threat to French while also making French no longer a threat to other cultures. A truly civilized people promotes universal justice, not just its own best interests.

That makes a lot of sense and can't really disagree with you. If a simple international language is possible then I'm all for it.

Well then they should have stayed in France. So what you're saying is most Quebecers are no better than most English Canadians in that they want to assimilate the minority indigenous population through the use of political muscle, right or wrong.

The ''go back to France'' or ''you should have stayed in France'' argument is just foolish and you know it. Most of us French Quebecers weren't born in France and any family ties we could have with people from France go way back.

I don't think Quebecers want to assimilate the minority indigenous population. They just want to defend French but too many of us forget or simply don't realize the consequences our laws can have on First Nations. It's unfortunately too easy to forget about First Nations when you live in an urban environment as most of us do. In other words, our defensive attitude has become aggressive and we need to realize this as a collectivity.

Not at all, since it
does not impose one religion but teaches about all religions, thus making it universal in nature. French is an ethnic language, not a neutral language like Bahhasa Indonesia or Esperanto for instance.

Good point.

I can agree with the will of the majority to a degree. But a line is crossed once it becomes tyranny of the majority or mob rule. Again, English Canadians are just as guilty of this, don't get me wrong. But I cannot excuse French Canada just because English Canada is just as bad.

And how do we draw that line?


In terms of choosing whether you drive on a red or green light, that is an imperative necessity to have all agree on one. When it comes to language though, while a common language is needed, it ought to be as unintrusive as possible, and an easy to learn language would intrude far less on indigenous languages than a difficult one like French, thus putting all on a more equal footing.

I'll agree French is difficult. Heck most of us francophones have a hard time mastering it. That doesn't mean we speak a bastardized version of French as I've heard so many times in this forum by folks who are either bitter or just plain ignorant when it comes to French. That would be the same thing as saying Canadian and US American English is a bastardized version of true English. It just doesn't add up. But I'm disgressing...

I like what you propose on Esperanto and having easy to learn universal languages. But it's gonna take a heck of a lot of convincing and it seems to me that what you're proposing is nothing less but an international cultural revolution. I'm hopeful that future has that in store for humanity but I'm not sure it's gonna be happening in the next few years!... But we never know and we never will if we don't try.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Leiden, the Netherlands
You can walk: Prominent Bill 14 supporter tells people who can't order metro tickets in French

Now, you can talk about democratic processes and what "the people" want but I think at some point you have to realize that instead of sovereigntist you are instead becoming isolationist.

I hear that it can be a real treat to try to buy subway tickets in Japan. The vending machine is completely in Japanese, each line is run by a different company, and your fare is based on how many stops and companies you pass through. Don't have enough fare? Jail for you.

I've bought tickets in all sorts of languages, and dealt with my weird problems while unable to speak with all sorts of locals. The thing I find really amazing however is how often people will apologize to me for not being able to speak English when I am in their country and apologizing to them for not speaking theirs.

With this weird juxtaposition, I find that the animosity of some people in English speaking countries towards immigrants who do not speak perfect English is depressing enough. When the native tongue is French, it just becomes perplexing. People are willing to prevent other people from crossing a line in the sand because of their inability to speak recognizable sounds, meanwhile the west nile carrying ducks fly across the border as if freedom meant something to the birds.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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Ottawa, ON
I hear that it can be a real treat to try to buy subway tickets in Japan. The vending machine is completely in Japanese, each line is run by a different company, and your fare is based on how many stops and companies you pass through. Don't have enough fare? Jail for you.

I've bought tickets in all sorts of languages, and dealt with my weird problems while unable to speak with all sorts of locals. The thing I find really amazing however is how often people will apologize to me for not being able to speak English when I am in their country and apologizing to them for not speaking theirs.

With this weird juxtaposition, I find that the animosity of some people in English speaking countries towards immigrants who do not speak perfect English is depressing enough. When the native tongue is French, it just becomes perplexing. People are willing to prevent other people from crossing a line in the sand because of their inability to speak recognizable sounds, meanwhile the west nile carrying ducks fly across the border as if freedom meant something to the birds.

So well put.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
3
36
London, Ontario
I hear that it can be a real treat to try to buy subway tickets in Japan. The vending machine is completely in Japanese, each line is run by a different company, and your fare is based on how many stops and companies you pass through. Don't have enough fare? Jail for you.

I've bought tickets in all sorts of languages, and dealt with my weird problems while unable to speak with all sorts of locals. The thing I find really amazing however is how often people will apologize to me for not being able to speak English when I am in their country and apologizing to them for not speaking theirs.

With this weird juxtaposition, I find that the animosity of some people in English speaking countries towards immigrants who do not speak perfect English is depressing enough. When the native tongue is French, it just becomes perplexing. People are willing to prevent other people from crossing a line in the sand because of their inability to speak recognizable sounds, meanwhile the west nile carrying ducks fly across the border as if freedom meant something to the birds.

See the first thing I thought of when I read the article was "What about tourists?". When someone in government is attempting to draw a line in the sand with the ability to alienate visitors, nevermind the ROC, I think it's questionable tactic wise. I have no problem with Quebec wanting to preserve their language and culture, but what confuses me is that they've managed to do that fairly well without legislation up until when, the 80's when the first of the language laws were enacted? So how come now it's language law after language law after language law? There's more to it than simply preservation and sovereignty, it's also seems like it's about alienation and isolation too.
 

no color

Electoral Member
May 20, 2007
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1967 World's Fair
See the first thing I thought of when I read the article was "What about tourists?". When someone in government is attempting to draw a line in the sand with the ability to alienate visitors, nevermind the ROC, I think it's questionable tactic wise. I have no problem with Quebec wanting to preserve their language and culture, but what confuses me is that they've managed to do that fairly well without legislation up until when, the 80's when the first of the language laws were enacted? So how come now it's language law after language law after language law? There's more to it than simply preservation and sovereignty, it's also seems like it's about alienation and isolation too.

The issue here is no just with tourists and the ROC. There a sizeable English speaking population in Montreal (myself included) who are not bilingual. Many of us simply do not see the need to learn French. We've lived here for many generations as English speakers, and will surely not give in to the separatists and become assimilated into the French speaking culture. Nothing really appealing about it. Quite the opposite in fact. Due to the discriminatory language laws associated with French, the language itself has become a big turn-off for many of us. This includes many newcomers as well, as many who have no knowledge of English or French will opt to learn English instead. Eventually something has to give. Quebec's language laws were denouced by the United Nations as they clearly violate civil rights. Bad publicity can only go so far, and the rest of the world is watching.