What the "Have Not" Provinces Get

[B00Mer]

It strains credulity that intelligent Westerners say this when, in the past, they have been beneficiaries and there was no suggestion that it be short term or that they were "parasites." The discovery of oil does not change that ideal.

I think the point being made should be more direct and clarified for you..

What has Quebec ever done for Canada? Other that gripe, wine, b!tch and complain about being part of Canada, and take money from the rest of Canada.. that's pretty much a good basis for being called a parasite.

Further, "The Country within a Country" doesn't have any real incentive to leave Canada, because it's content with getting a free ride from the rest of us.

It's sorta like a 45 year old man, still leaving with his parents, living off their retirement. Maybe Canada needs to tell Quebec to get their heads out of their ass and start giving back and pulling their weight - or get the fu.ck out.

...

 

[captain morgan]

The NEP did not predate the Global crash. It was enacted in March 1980 and took time after that to take effect. Both unemployment and interest rates were high already because of the oil crisis that was the root of that recession.

Do you believe that PET and the policy advisers sat down in the first weekend in March, 1980 and drafted, the program? Maybe instituted it a week later?

It was announced a couple of years prior what the program was about and the intentions. Foreign monies dried-up at an increasing rate up to 1980 and at one point, the Trudeau gvt was forced to buy crude supplies from Venezuela for - and you guessed it - globally traded prices.

The NEP did not lead to the mass movement of rigs from Alberta as was claimed. They were on the move everywhere and into mothballs since the slowdown was continent wide.

That 'slow down' occurred far in advance in Canada due to PET's program... And yes, those rigs did move South of the border as the demand for E&P activities was still very high.

I am not getting into the NEP since it seems to draw out the inherent irrationality and hostility of Westerners to even point out, as Lougheed said, that it was a "win/win situation for Alberta and Canada."

It's funny when a third-party individual, such as yourself, seeks to apply broad generalizations on an issue to which you know very little about. Did you ever, for even a nanosecond, stop and wonder why Westerners were (and remain) so upset about this issue?

As for equalization being parasitic and the idea that it should be short term, that is arrant nonsense. Why would any province want to be part of a country that requires that if be in perpetual penury and not have the services that more (temporarily( fortunate provinces have.

Ah yes, the anthem of the entitled... I'll bet that you'll be referencing your inalienable rights to the aforementioned.

IT is a fundamental Right of ala citizens that they do have an equal level of services.

... And there ya have it - "I'm entitled to my entitlements". You should change your CC handle to David Dingwall.

Regardless, here are some other interesting rights that you have:

You have the right to demand that others support you - which generally leads to:

1. Your right to remain ignorant.
2. Your right to live in substandard dwellings.
3. Your right to go hungry.
4. Your right to be cold.

Anyways, I gotta a question for ya: Seeing how you're talking about people's rights: Does anyone have the right NOT to be obligated to support another?

Just a thought

It strains credulity that intelligent Westerners say this when, in the past, they have been beneficiaries and there was no suggestion that it be short term or that they were "parasites." The discovery of oil does not change that ideal.

When Albertan's were on the receiving end of equalization, they were, in fact, parasites... Same can be said for a number of provinces.... The interesting consideration here is "what have the recipient provinces (current and historic) done to improve their economic situation that lead them to require assistance in the first place?

For your consideration; Saskatchewan was at one point on the receiving end. Their economy was in shambles, but the province made a plan, took action, and here they are for the last number of years - a net contributor with a roaring economy that has diversified itself into new sectors.

So, how is it that Sask can manage this kind of turn around in a relatively short span, whereas other jurisdictions are into multiple decades of dependence (or as you suggest - entitlement) with no blue sky in sight?

 

[BruSan]

Perhaps it's because their newfound wealth is coming out of the ground and not manufacturing based and therefore competeing with third world labour or environmental regulations?

Perhaps Ontario would be able to pull itself up by it's bootstraps if the cost f making widgets suddenly skyrocketed to above what it costs to break even? Albertans for one can thank the stars the cost of oil rose above what it costs to boil the oil out of the crap it's encased in. Saskatchewan can thank the stars China et al have to feed their ever growing population and need phosphates up the ying yang.

Were it not for your natural resources, you'd STILL be standing there with your hand out.

Lucky break for you now quit your bitching!

 

[taxslave]

IT is a fundamental Right of ala citizens that they do have an equal level of services
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If that is the case why is it that the western have provinces do not have a provincial cheap daycare program while Quebec, a perennial net receiver of equalization payments has $7/day daycare? We pay, they play does not seem like a very equal level of services to me.

 

[TenPenny]

That 'slow down' occurred far in advance in Canada due to PET's program... And yes, those rigs did move South of the border as the demand for E&P activities was still very high.

That is, as they say, utter bull****.

The active rig count worldwide went from 4500 in 1980 to 2400 in 1981 and 1700 in 1982.

In the first leg of that drilling industry downturn, the rig count fell by 2,723 rigs, or about 60% of the industry peak count of 4,530 working rigs at the very end of 1981. This rig decline lasted for 65 weeks from peak to trough. Some analysts might say that because the rig count bounced up in the last few weeks of 1982, that this decline was over and we should be measuring a new rig drop period. We believe that the industry conditions in late 1982 were not materially improved from the earlier months of that year, nor the following year, and that is why the rig count decline quickly resumed.

(Source - BakerHughes RigZone)

 

[captain morgan]

Perhaps it's because their newfound wealth is coming out of the ground and not manufacturing based and therefore competeing with third world labour or environmental regulations?

Perhaps Ontario would be able to pull itself up by it's bootstraps if the cost f making widgets suddenly skyrocketed to above what it costs to break even? Albertans for one can thank the stars the cost of oil rose above what it costs to boil the oil out of the crap it's encased in. Saskatchewan can thank the stars China et al have to feed their ever growing population and need phosphates up the ying yang.

Were it not for your natural resources, you'd STILL be standing there with your hand out.

Lucky break for you now quit your bitching!

Ask Petros about the mfg sector in Sask.... Apparently they are immune from Mulcair's version of Dutch Disease.

While we're at it, why is it that Suncor (or one of the majors) awarded a large engineering/construction contract to a Chinese based firm to design and build a set of cooling towers?... The catch; the Chinese were sourcing much of their coking coal from Canada that:

1. Needed to be exported to China
2. Transformed into ore/steel
3. Manufacture the actual towers
4. Ship across the globe up the St Larry (couldn't transport them via rail through the Rockies due to the terrain and size of units)
5. Rail across Canada
6. Install in Ft Mac

Am I supposed to believe that the steel industry in Canada couldn't do it on a competitive basis without having to transport the raw materials and finished product trans-globally?

That is, as they say, utter bull****.

Read AND comprehend the post before you respond and play the role of the fool.

The active rig count worldwide went from 4500 in 1980 to 2400 in 1981 and 1700 in 1982.
(Source - BakerHughes RigZone)

...And?... I'm not interested in the global rig count of active units when the downturn hit.

Why don't you take a look at the # of rigs that head South or foreign in increasing numbers when PET announced his 'program' long before 1980 when it went active.

Hint: It corresponds directly with the drop in capital investment in Canadian resource projects.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

When the NEP began to "bite," captain, I was in Calgary and very muchy involved n the oil patch business. However, I have wide experience in other regions and, consequently, am not carrying a log on my shoulder that is too heavy for me to be able to concentrate on fact.

What Quebec did in the past was carry the whole of Canada for a generation or two. It was far ahead of even Ontario for a long time before and for quite some time after, Confederation. Its relative strength began to decline as the source of revenue shifted from customs revenues to other taxes. It waa Quebec money equally to Ontario that caried Alberta and Saskatchewan to maturity and to the windfall that has made some of their denizens unwarrantedly feel superior to the mere mortals in the rest of thr country.

You tell me what kind of country insists that one part be prosperous and others be poverty stricken. There is too much of that in Canada with the ridiculous areas of control and jurisdictions.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Looks like a bit of selective memory here. At one time or another almost all provinces have received some sort of federal help; even Alberta, which received federal funding up to the 1970s. I don't really worry about it since I consider myself a Canadian and not a citizen who owes loyalty to any particular province. If part of the country needs help from the federal government, then it should receive it. I expect a lot of the people who whine about this would be equally annoyed if equalization payets were stopped and hundreds of thousands of people decided to migrate to the wealthier provinces.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

How, captain, do you come to the notion that the NEP was advanced before 1980? Clark was P.M. in 1979/80. The NEP was a Trudeau initiative in response to the factors I mentioned earlier. It was not somehting that had been in the pipeline.

Further, those rigs were not active after leaving Alberta. I know that because I insured many of them in their activities and in their extended rest.

 

[captain morgan]

When the NEP began to "bite," captain, I was in Calgary and very muchy involved n the oil patch business. However, I have wide experience in other regions and, consequently, am not carrying a log on my shoulder that is too heavy for me to be able to concentrate on fact.

What BS; I don't believe for one minute that you can say that and state that you were "very much involved".

Me, I was a kid when it hit, but had a lot of family that were industry players. To this day, I come into contact with a number of former AB companies that fled to Oklahoma and Colorado when PET announced his intentions. They set up shop there and developed resource plays that are ongoing to this day, they still talk about the damage that NEP did and how it prematurely drove the industry (and the rigs) South.

BTW - I notice that you didn't comment on the notion that the Canadian Feds were buying Venezuelan (and US) crude at global market prices to make up for the short-fall in that period of time prior to the global collapse.... Is that reality a little too inconvenient in suggesting that the industry was foundering in Canada prior to the global recession? Maybe it undermines your 'insurance industry experience' that the Canadian rigs were just parked in a field to rust as opposed to contracting to US based companies.

How about it? Got an answer?

What Quebec did in the past was carry the whole of Canada for a generation or two.

That is no justification for a reversion back to immaturity and dependence.

You tell me what kind of country insists that one part be prosperous and others be poverty stricken. There is too much of that in Canada with the ridiculous areas of control and jurisdictions.

Still entitled to your entitlements, are you? The only people that are 'insisting' on poverty are those that make the decision to remain in an untenable situation.

If you demand to live in an area that has no potable water available, don't piss and moan about the lack of water and demand that someone thousands of miles away fix that problem... Man-up and move on, that is the way that Canada was built

How, captain, do you come to the notion that the NEP was advanced before 1980? Clark was P.M. in 1979/80. The NEP was a Trudeau initiative in response to the factors I mentioned earlier. It was not somehting that had been in the pipeline.

Further, those rigs were not active after leaving Alberta. I know that because I insured many of them in their activities and in their extended rest.

For your convenience, I'll repost just for you:

Do you believe that PET and the policy advisers sat down in the first weekend in March, 1980 and drafted, the program? Maybe instituted it a week later?

It was announced a couple of years prior what the program was about and the intentions. Foreign monies dried-up at an increasing rate up to 1980 and at one point, the Trudeau gvt was forced to buy crude supplies from Venezuela for - and you guessed it - globally traded prices.

I don't buy the insurance schtick as any kind of rebuttal to the relative increase in US E&P in those couple of years prior to NEP in Canada.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

What BS; I don't believe for one minute that you can say that and state that you were "very much involved".

Me, I was a kid when it hit, but had a lot of family that were industry players. To this day, I come into contact with a number of former AB companies that fled to Oklahoma and Colorado when PET announced his intentions. They set up shop there and developed resource plays that are ongoing to this day, they still talk about the damage that NEP did and how it prematurely drove the industry (and the rigs) South.

BTW - I notice that you didn't comment on the notion that the Canadian Feds were buying Venezuelan (and US) crude at global market prices to make up for the short-fall in that period of time prior to the global collapse.... Is that reality a little too inconvenient in suggesting that the industry was foundering in Canada prior to the global recession? Maybe it undermines your 'insurance industry experience' that the Canadian rigs were just parked in a field to rust as opposed to contracting to US based companies.

How about it? Got an answer?




That is no justification for a reversion back to immaturity and dependence.





Still entitled to your entitlements, are you? The only people that are 'insisting' on poverty are those that make the decision to remain in an untenable situation.

If you demand to live in an area that has no potable water available, don't piss and moan about the lack of water and demand that someone thousands of miles away fix that problem... Man-up and move on, that is the way that Canada was built



For your convenience, I'll repost just for you:



I don't buy the insurance schtick as any kind of rebuttal to the relative increase in US E&P in those couple of years prior to NEP in Canada.

And I do not buy that you have family wo were industry players. But I know what I know from direct experience.

Why would I answer about Venezuelan oil? It is entirely irrelevant. The NEP was conceived as a response to the oil crises of the 1970's and to the looming recession whose beginnings were already evident and severe with unemployment rates higher than they are now before the Recession officially began.

It was also designed to provide security for Canada's needs. Don't you know how Venezuelan oil fitted into that?

Your snide accusations about others and their "entitlements," btw, are simply bunk. There are entitlements that come with citizenship and that is why your province received support as needed.

 

[captain morgan]

Direct experience, huh?.. Well, assuming that you would seek an objective analysis, and yes, I know that is asking for the impossible; you can easily take a look at the increased activity registered with the applicable state resource/mineral boards in select US jurisdictions and compare that to the fading land sales, production declines and diminished exploration plays in the WCSB (although I doubt that you even know what that acronym is)... And all this prior to the official and formal institution of the NEP

For an insurance pro, you'd appreciate that actuarials don't lie, but somehow you'll find a way to stretch it as a freak coincidence.

Venezuelan AND US crude fitted in as it was required to compensate for the decline in WCSB crude available for Canada (hint: the supply contracts to outside demand made from Canadian companies were still in effect). PET was forced to buy crude from foreign sources on a more aggressive basis, pay global market prices and sell to Cdns at below market... All using debt to cover the margin of his already failed policy despite it not even being in full effect yet.

As far as your comments on snide remarks on 'entitlements'... You are without question the poster-boy for that ideal. The comments I make are simply a reflection of that ideal that your espouse with such gusto.

 

[jariax]

Every year, 'have' provinces like Saskatchewan and Alberta send billions in tax dollars to 'have not' provinces like Ontario and Quebec.

A little research into 2012 Population Estimates reveals some more interesting information:

more

Equalization Program

https://www.facebook.com/sunnewsnetwork

via sda: small dead animals: What the "Have Not" Provinces Get

See, this is the reason that I moved to Ontario.
We were a have-province for decades, and paid our equalization formula without complaint

But the second Ontario becomes a have-not province, the whiny West has a need to declare itself hard-done-by and start talks about separation. Basically, it all amounts to "I have a bunch of money, and I don't want to share"

 

[TenPenny]

...And?... I'm not interested in the global rig count of active units when the downturn hit.
.

I know that you're not interested in facts or reality, it makes your life much easier when you can ignore anything that doesn't fit your politics. Carry on, you're quite amusing.

 

[captain morgan]

I know that you're not interested in facts or reality, it makes your life much easier when you can ignore anything that doesn't fit your politics. Carry on, you're quite amusing.

Didn't pick up on the important part of my post, didja einstein or maybe you did look into the rig count by nation and/or look at the comparative land sales and corresponding active between Canada and the US in relation to the year or 2 prior to NEP being officially in place?

 

[TenPenny]

1. Ship across the globe up the St Larry (couldn't transport them via rail through the Rockies due to the terrain and size of units)
2. Rail across Canada
3. .

Speaking of playing the fool, why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.

Didn't pick up on the important part of my post, didja einstein or maybe you did look into the rig count by nation and/or look at the comparative land sales and corresponding active between Canada and the US in relation to the year or 2 prior to NEP being officially in place?

Did you look at the active rigs by nation?

 

[captain morgan]

Speaking of playing the fool,

... And you magically show up. Big surprise there.

why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.

You ought to call up the Chinese mfgr and tell 'em they made a mistake.

I could care less why, the fact is that this is what they were forced to do.

Did you look at the active rigs by nation?

Ummmm... Weren't you the guy that took such pride in quoting RigZone on the global stats? If memory serves, you used this as your irrefutable evidence that because global activity was down, that this somehow commented on the inability of rigs to move south from Canada to contract to US customers

 

[JLM]

[/LIST]Speaking of playing the fool, why would the Chinese ship stuff around the globe and up the St Lawrence? The big stuff either goes straight across the Pacific and up into Idaho by barge, where it's transloaded, or else it goes up the Mississippi by barge to be transloaded.



QUOTE]

Via which river is stuff barged into Idaho from the Pacific Ocean?

 

[BruSan]

It is my firm belief this "you're getting some of my pudding" crap from the western provinces is a relatively new thing.

In my time of living on Vancouver Island in the early sixties, I cannot recall where this was ever a topic of discussion among working folk or politicians seeking to make talking point cred's. While hunting in the norther B.C. Interior and meeting with any and all from Alberta and B.C. it was also never a point of contention over beers in the bars.

While growing up and later, after moving back to Ontario I also don't have any recall of my father or any working stiff making a whine out of Ontario or Quebec sending money to Ottawa only to have it parcelled out east or west. Perhaps that generation being comprised significantly of veterans who were willing to sacrifice to assist those suffering oppression, I suppose it goes without saying they would never have engaged in this mindnumbing bullcrap about being unfairly supporting one province or another during times of need.

Your legislators weren't whining when it was done ad-hoc or when this thing was designed and at the time they stood to gain markedly were they?

I understand the concept of welching on a debt so am not surprised that now that you're having to pay a little instead of always getting a little, you want the rules of the game changed. Typical snivelling card cheat behaviour.

 

[taxslave]

The theory that Quebec and/or Ontario carried the west in the past is pure BS. They treated the west as a colony to rape and pillage with laws such as the Crow freight rate to keep the west poor and a supplier of resources for their rich manufacturers.