The fundamental human right of self determination...

[CDNBear]

That it entered Confederation voluntarily. That it was an independent colony of Britain and chose to become part of Canada. It had territorial integrity and a distinct nationality.

No other province has any of that.

Those are the prerequisites of self determination as agreed in the Helsinki agreements. The world adheres to that.

Ok, to avoid hijacking the other thread any further, and the joy I derive from embarrassing blowhard frauds, lets get this over with here.

1, The requirements of fundamental right of self determination found their origins in Article 22, of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Not the Helsinki Agreements.

Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations

2, It derives erga omnes from affirmation at the ICJ and the OAS and the codification of the UN Charter. Not the Helsinki Agreements. Article VIII of the Helsinki Accords, on self determination, defers to the UN Charter, which absorbed much of its basis from the Covenant of the League of Nations.

Which basically translates into, you must be a people with a common bond and vision.

The Helsinki Accords did not frame or determine the prerequisites as you have claimed.

Furthermore, in 2004 the ICJ, referred to Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, in a ruling on the right of self determination.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf

Nowhere in any of those documents and decisions, can one find supporting evidence for the claims you have made. Unless you are confusing "secession as a means of self determination". Which is highly likely given the lack of understanding you exhibit on the matter.

There are several criteria,

A distinct self-defined regional group that supports separatism.

A legitimate claim to a territory.

A systematic pattern of discrimination.

A rejection of compromise.

The ability of the seceded entities ability to be sustainable.

The general affects of secession on peace, governance, and human rights.

Which brings us back to the spirit of Article 22, of the Covenant of the League of Nations.

Since you've already made it perfectly clear you are to afraid and lack any real understanding, to have a reasoned discussion on the matter, I'd invite anyone with no such fears of any level of knowledge to join in on this discussion.

 

[Cabbagesandking]

I have told you that I have no interest in discussing this with you and I have a life that does not give me the luxury of fruitless endeavours. You show, in that post, that you still have no idea of what it is about and that. within your expressed factores in secession are mostly the factors I gave as included in the Right to self determination.

and I did not have to got to Wiki for inspiration.

If you cannot understand that a codification is not an origin then you are in even worse shape than I suspected. The Helsinki Agreements do list the factors in the Right of Self Determination of peoples.

Stick to welding!

 

[petros]

Pathetic!

 

[B00Mer]

The fundamental human right of self determination

huh, nice title, I am watching Cuba the forbidden fortune on CNBC right now.. lol

4th largest buyer of US goods and their attempt to give Cubans a choice in their own future.

Noticias Martí - Martí Noticias | Radio y Televisión Martí | Martinoticias.com - a U.S. Radio TV station that is transmitted to the Cubans by a plane being flown over the country.

Yet Canada allows this tyrant Castro to come visit Canada.. we should have arrested and turned him over to international war crimes tribunals, yet the Libtards want to arrest President Bush who has brought freedom to the nation Iraq.

Fundamental human right of self determination is only won by blood and a gun, that is why I support the Second Amendment (the United States Constitution).

 

[CDNBear]

within your expressed factores in secession are mostly the factors I gave as included in the Right to self determination.

Context is everything.

Your implication is that the tests are more easily met by a previous voluntary act of secession. That is incorrect.

and I did not have to got to Wiki for inspiration.

Your posts say otherwise.

If you cannot understand that a codification is not an origin then you are in even worse shape than I suspected.

Perhaps if you stopped making things up, your posts wouldn't come across as so poorly informed.

Especially since I made no such claim.

Perhaps it isn't your inability to be honest, but a serious comprehension issue that causes you to make such glaringly erroneous claims.

In either case, please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

The Helsinki Agreements do list the factors in the Right of Self Determination of peoples.

As defined by a previous document. As I have supplied evidence of.

Stick to welding!

I'm sure you would like me to do that, I'm sure you would rather have your silly claims go unchallenged.

Now. You made it perfectly clear you didn't want to discuss this with me, I acknowledged your fear and avoidance in my OP. Which I will repost and highlight, in the hopes that you will refrain from further embarrassing yourself with anymore silly claims...

Since you've already made it perfectly clear you are to afraid and lack any real understanding, to have a reasoned discussion on the matter, I'd invite anyone with no such fears of any level of knowledge to join in on this discussion.

But I will note, that your attempt at discussing it in your reply, is another humourous example of your continuous contradictions.

Fundamental human right of self determination is only won by blood and a gun, that is why I support the Second Amendment (the United States Constitution).

I completely disagree.

It is most certainly attainable by peaceful means.

Had the vote on Quebec sovereignty gone differently. It could have seceded from Canada without bloodshed.

Absorbing the Native communities without bloodshed, may very well be a completely different story though.

 

[B00Mer]

The Hatfield–McCoy feud on the History channel.. ??

The new TV movie is going to be called CNDBear-Cabbagesandking feud.

 

[petros]

In a feud both sides need weapons. Cabbagefartsking is lacking weapons and the ammo need to make them useful.

Question for you BOOMER. Did South Sudan come into existance by gun or was it by self-determination?

 

[B00Mer]

It is most certainly attainable by peaceful means.

sometimes.. gandhi or open trade with Russia.. but I always like to have a backup plan.. S&W .40 always helps.

Had the vote on Quebec sovereignty gone differently. It could have seceded from Canada without bloodshed.

No.. I heard of rumors of people wanting to setup armed road blocks on the 401.

 

[CDNBear]

No.. I heard of rumors of people wanting to setup armed road blocks on the 401.

By whom?

 

[lone wolf]

I have told you that I have no interest in discussing this with you and I have a life that does not give me the luxury of fruitless endeavours. You show, in that post, that you still have no idea of what it is about and that. within your expressed factores in secession are mostly the factors I gave as included in the Right to self determination.

and I did not have to got to Wiki for inspiration.

If you cannot understand that a codification is not an origin then you are in even worse shape than I suspected. The Helsinki Agreements do list the factors in the Right of Self Determination of peoples.

Stick to welding!

Dammit, Bear.... Weld the guy a new cage. His seems to be leaking....

 

[B00Mer]

IDid South Sudan come into existance by gun or was it by self-determination?

...after four decades of war, peace talks..

 

[CDNBear]

Dammit, Bear.... Weld the guy a new cage. His seems to be leaking....

Why? His leaking is proving every observation I've made about him, to be absolutely true.

I can't even long troll the kind of set up, for the exposé into BS, lies and buffoonery, his post have become.

 

[B00Mer]

By whom?

When they were talking about referendum and separation back in the 80's, I lived close to the Quebec/Ontario border and people in the community were getting pissed off.

You know pre-internet.

 

[CDNBear]

When they were talking about referendum and separation back in the 80's, I lived close to the Quebec/Ontario border and people in the community were getting pissed off.

You know pre-internet.

In what community? English/French?

 

[B00Mer]

In what community? English/French?

Christ!! Cornwall, Ontario.. English community.

Remember, many towns in Upper Canada are bilingual. Most of my family is bilingual (I don't speak French, can't), I used to live in Beaconsfield, a suburb of Montreal when I was 5yrs old and have family in Pierrefond still.

I think the thought of Quebec separation would bring out the worse in many people, especially the Native communities in Quebec.

I dunno, but I think there would be bloodshed, because of high emotions and misunderstandings.

I think the rest of Canada would probably have joined the USA as they are strongest economic trading partner and our economy would have been pretty much dead.

 

[CDNBear]

Christ!! Cornwall, Ontario.. English community.

So in other words, it has nothing to do with your original implication.

 

[B00Mer]

So in other words, it has nothing to do with your original implication.

No, a few of my friends and Akwesasne residents living in Cornwall wanted to setup a road block on the 401 to stop traffic.. protest Quebec separation.

I think they all watched way to much Miami Vice back in the day.

 

[CDNBear]

Since this actually belongs here...

Yet if the vote would have gone the other way, I think there would have been lot's of violence. Just happens they voted to stay in Canada.

If they voted to leave Jacques Parizeau would have been Canada's Marie Antoinette.

I can almost guarantee their would be violence. As First Nations sought to solidify their territorial sovereignty or remain part of Canada.

Or perhaps by differing factions within Quebec, as they seek greater control.

But that has nothing to do with your original implication. Which was...

Fundamental human right of self determination is only won by blood and a gun, that is why I support the Second Amendment (the United States Constitution).

Disputes within a fledgling state, has nothing to do with the peaceful secession from a union.

 

[B00Mer]

Disputes within a fledgling state, has nothing to do with the peaceful secession from a union.

o.k. that is a very vague black and white statement, yet very rarely is a separation of a state is peaceful. As far back as the American Civil War, even Iraq with the religious factions fighting for dominance, or most recent Croatian War of Independence and Serbian War.

Also, if you want to say the fight for Quebec Sovereignty within Canada is peaceful, you forgot to look back into Canada's history, Upper Canada and Lower Canada.

"Quebec independence is an issue that traces back to conflict between the French and English over the colonization of Canada in the 1600s"

FLQ famously kidnapped a Canadian Minister, Pierre Laporte and murdered him..

http://idebate.org/debatabase/debat...ce/house-believes-quebec-should-secede-canada

 

[CDNBear]

o.k. that is a very vague black and white statement...

Do I really have to explain the contradiction in that statement?

Also, if you want to say the fight for Quebec Sovereignty within Canada is peaceful, you forgot to look back into Canada's history, Upper Canada and Lower Canada.

Canada and Quebec, came to an agreement as to how they were going to address the issue.

At that time, there was no coercion or threats of violence forcing either of the parties to bow to the other.

The use of peaceful legal means was the course of action.

"Quebec independence is an issue that traces back to conflict between the French and English over the colonization of Canada in the 1600s"/QUOTE]And if I want to go back in time, I can make a case for placing the full blame for the USA's actions today, on France.

Anyone can make silly arguments.