Anarchy 101

[Niflmir]

Heaven forbid the little darlin's would have received the same opportunities the rest of us from previous generations were gifted with: the constant reminder from our first form high school teachers that "if you ascribe to attend a college or university you should start planning how you're going to pay for it now and put every dime of that after school and weekend job into an interest bearing account". The guidance counsellor of our high school started drumming that into us during grade nine classes.

You know that responsibility concept that weeds out the ones who merely make a decision after grade 12; well, the summer's over, guess I'll go to university now. Ambition, determination, self sacrifice; all foreign words to these little spoiled-brat anarchists.

I think most people today would have liked to receive the same opportunities as previous generations: an well paid, fulltime job without needing a university degree. Sadly, those opportunities do not exist anymore. Also, in the 1980's, tuition was still at a level that it was attainable by a median income family.

Since then tuition has tripled needlessly. Some people are aware of this, and actually willing to leave the comfort of their own home to protest it.

You should use a smaller paint brush when you try to paint everyone black.

 

[taxslave]

I think most people today would have liked to receive the same opportunities as previous generations: an well paid, fulltime job without needing a university degree. Sadly, those opportunities do not exist anymore. Also, in the 1980's, tuition was still at a level that it was attainable by a median income family.

Since then tuition has tripled needlessly. Some people are aware of this, and actually willing to leave the comfort of their own home to protest it.

You should use a smaller paint brush when you try to paint everyone black.

TUITION IN Canada is cheap. About the cost of a decent vacation. Now if you have to live away from home it does get to be more expensive depending on how you want to live.

 

[gerryh]

More kids need to get into the trades.

 

[BruSan]

I think most people today would have liked to receive the same opportunities as previous generations: an well paid, fulltime job without needing a university degree. Sadly, those opportunities do not exist anymore. Also, in the 1980's, tuition was still at a level that it was attainable by a median income family.

Since then tuition has tripled needlessly. Some people are aware of this, and actually willing to leave the comfort of their own home to protest it.

You should use a smaller paint brush when you try to paint everyone black.[/QUOTE]

This from a person who just categorized all the previous generations of having it better by being able to have full time job without going to graduate school? Not likely. There were no rules governing who you should employ back then and you actually had to compete with your brain AND your brawn to hold a job. This spoiled generation is not the first to face employment difficulties and costs being usurious. You should go back further than 1980 to cast your net.

University has never been attainable to a median income family UNLESS major sacrifice was involved and probably never will be. Prior to the eighties the students themselves were required to maintain part-time employment (not subject to minimum wage rules back then) for all years prior AND during University. In those days jobs were of no greater abundance than now. The difference would of course be more demonstrable had these students not had the time on their hands to lay in the street. Past generations were all too busy working in kitchens, flour mills, loading docks pushing freight onto trucks by hand etc., to have that luxury.

You should use a smaller paint brush when you try to paint everyone ANY colour, much less black!

 

[CDNBear]

More kids need to get into the trades.

We already know how some people feel about blue colour folk.

 

[Niflmir]

TUITION IN Canada is cheap. About the cost of a decent vacation. Now if you have to live away from home it does get to be more expensive depending on how you want to live.

Are you serious? I was paying $6K and $4K a year in tuition in a single installment for my Undergraduate degree and Master's degree respectively. In Germany, I paid 200 euro a semester, for a grand total of 600 euro a year. The tuition in Germany came with a zone ticket for the entire Berlin-Brandenburg region, which alone would cost 60 euro a month, or, 240 euro a semester.

Tuition in Canada is not cheap. It is as cheap to go abroad for education as to pay the tuition alone in Canada. If you have to go away from your parent's home in Canada, then going abroad wins hands down.

 

[gerryh]

What's the reason that kids today are being told that they NEED to get a University education?

 

[captain morgan]

Are you serious? I was paying $6K and $4K a year in tuition in a single installment for my Undergraduate degree and Master's degree respectively. In Germany, I paid 200 euro a semester, for a grand total of 600 euro a year. The tuition in Germany came with a zone ticket for the entire Berlin-Brandenburg region, which alone would cost 60 euro a month, or, 240 euro a semester.

Tuition in Canada is not cheap. It is as cheap to go abroad for education as to pay the tuition alone in Canada. If you have to go away from your parent's home in Canada, then going abroad wins hands down.

.. And what are the taxes and cost of living like in Germany?

 

[Niflmir]

What's the reason that kids today are being told that they NEED to get a University education?

Because that's what the human herd is doing these days, and so employers have increased the qualifications for the same sort of work from a high school graduate to a university graduate.

 

[gore0bsessed]

For some this isn't just about money, it's symbolic of what type of society you want to live in.
Do you want to live in a society where key services like healthcare, education and law enforcement are essentially run for profit, or do you believe that these services are too important for a society to be thrown into a position where they can be exploited by a minority to not only provide a revenue stream, but to stifle social mobility through debt.
So yes, they do have a right to bitch about how much they should not be paying. Maybe you should stop viewing them as unreasonable and show some solidarity to members of your own class who are being shafted by another.

....

 

[Niflmir]

.. And what are the taxes and cost of living like in Germany?

You can live comfortably in a student apartment with another 1-2 persons for 200 euro a month in Berlin. If you eat at the student canteen, you can eat for about 200 euro a month. For these reasons, as I pointed out: it is cheaper to live and study in Berlin than to pay tuition in Canada.

 

[gerryh]

Because that's what the human herd is doing these days, and so employers have increased the qualifications for the same sort of work from a high school graduate to a university graduate.

Trades don't require university education.

 

[captain morgan]

You can live comfortably in a student apartment with another 1-2 persons for 200 euro a month in Berlin. If you eat at the student canteen, you can eat for about 200 euro a month. For these reasons, as I pointed out: it is cheaper to live and study in Berlin than to pay tuition in Canada.

I'm interested in how society is paying for the education system. The cost to build/operate an institution or compete for quality instructors in Germany is not going to be dramatically cheaper than in Canada.

 

[Nuggler]

No...

There is a whole aspect of society that is disqualified, because OSAP considers their parents income to be sufficient to afford paying for their education.

Depending on the chosen field, that may require them to mortgage their home. After working hard to pay it off, or pay down the mortgage, who wants to re mortgage themselves late in life?

Still that way, eh?? I didn't qualify for a student loan way back when as my stepdaddy made too much money. Not that he would lend/give/bequeath any to me, just that he made too much.

So I took part time courses paid for my moi.

Another catch back then. To get a degree you had to spend at least one full year at school. Finally said F it and went to work full time. They changed that rule a few years later.

Getting an education was an education in itself.

Did it improve my view of the world and our Canadian "Social Stratification"...?......(A book written by a fella named Porter ) We had to be able to quote it at length. I just wanted to kick him in the nuts real hard. Ah me.........................the goodeldaze.

 

[Niflmir]

Trades don't require university education.

Indeed, but for some reason the herd shies away from trade school. I cannot give you a satisfying answer there, I think people are just pushed to university.

I'm interested in how society is paying for the education system. The cost to build/operate an institution or compete for quality instructors in Germany is not going to be dramatically cheaper than in Canada.

They try to recover as much as possible from the students for the administrative costs of running the University. When that almost breaks even, they receive a bunch of funding for research that takes them out of the red, if it doesn't then they have to rent out their buildings. Ironically, professors are public employees in Germany, and so cannot go on strike.

 

[s_lone]

No more ridiculous than thinking violence and destruction of property is a good way to get your point across.

I completely agree. It's hard to avoid the typical anarchist-let's-watch-the-world-burn when it comes to massive protest demonstrations. The overwhelming majority of students are non violent and as always the media likes to focus on the few rotten apples.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I completely agree. It's hard to avoid the typical anarchist-let's-watch-the-world-burn when it comes to massive protest demonstrations. The overwhelming majority of students are non violent and as always the media likes to focus on the few rotten apples.

Too true, as that is news-worthy....& thus brings up a different but related
topic. Those in the protests wearing masks & facial coverings. In that
situation (in a crowd, or protest, or riot, or whatever, etc...), when it's not
done (covering ones face) to combat the weather (-30c, etc....), should
that be a crime unto itself (hiding ones identity)?

Like really, is this masking of one's identity in that situation needed,
unless you're going to chuck a rock through a window or light a car
on fire? I doubt these people enter a bank with their faces covered
like that, for obvious reasons, and I don't see the protest situation
as being much different.

 

[s_lone]

Soooo; by extension you believe that universities should be fully funded by taxpayers only? Obviously the "business" of operating a University that requires "business" decisions on budgetary spending of salaries etc., to attract top professors shouldn't enter into the equation at all? You think corporate or philanthropic donations would still be forthcoming in that scenario?

I don't see why primary education for young children should be viewed as a business. I think we can all agree that free public school for all children is a smart investment in our society's future. Public school is completely funded by public funds yet that doesn't stop schools from doing their best to hire the best teachers possible.I apply the same logic to high school and tend to apply it also to college education. I'm not closed to the idea to paying some money for my education (which I did) but yes, I see the idea of a relatively free higher education as an investment in our society's future.

Sorry; but once again it would be my position; Quebec's decision, should it happen, to fund their universities in a different fashion than the other provinces should not enter into the federal arena, and hence from my pocket at all, thank you!

Where did you hear that this had anything to do with the federal arena? This is a conflict between Quebec students and the Quebec government. Last I heard, education was a provincial jurisdiction.

You wrongly attibute these thoughts to the "ROC" when it is obvious a significant portion of Quebecers feel exactly the same. FAIL to ignite that old "us agin them" fervor big time with this one. Now that you've squandered that Quebec against the ROC false strawman, what's next?

Considering the price of higher education pretty much double Quebec's price in all provinces except Newfoundland and Manitoba, I think it's fair to say most people in the ROC are comfortable with their high education prices. I'm just pointing out the obvious. Of course, lots of people in Quebec support a raise in tuition fees. We wouldn't be having a crisis if that wasn't the case. But there's clearly a different mentality between Quebec and MOST of the ROC when you observe how tuition fees were raised or not in the last 40 years.

Secondary education SHOULD involve sacrifice and some hard work on behalf of it's attendees otherwise our universities would be full of 40 year old layabouts all taking their second or third masters degree without any intention of ever using the things to be productive citizens.

I wholly agree about higher education requiring hard work. I don't see how that should justify high education costs.

The picture of them laying down is highly apropo in my mind.

Would you prefer them breaking windows and throwing rocks at police?

Those that can pay outright, do. Those that can't, get a student loan.
Doesn't that make post secondary education accessible to all? It is
not free, nor is it compulsory. It's a choice that some choice to
indulge themselves of in the hope of a better future income, leaving
one the ability to repay the student loan, if needed, with a net gain
in the long run.

I agree that if we are going to pay as individuals for our higher education, it ought to be seen as an investment. But you can have all the loans you want, high tuition fees will always be a deterrent for financially strained people. It's a simple fact of life.

It's good to see that these protests are peaceful without damage to
public property, so that these students can win over the hearts and
minds of those that they choose to supplement (financially) their
post secondary educations thought the tax system, I guess,
so that their student debts upon graduation can remain a
fraction of what other Canadians would pay.

If this isn't the case, it would be a case of biting the hand that feeds
them (financially) which would be a sign of utter stupidity, leaving
me to question their levels of intelligence to be able to function
in the real world and actually repay a student loan, even if it's only
a portion of what other Canadians would deal with.

It's outrageous that any of us would have to pay for a post secondary
education, that is a choice, and not a right, even in this day and age.
Now clean drinking water should a right and free to all somehow,
even though that doesn't come without a cost....but we all (I assume)
pay for that privilege or they turn off our individual taps. This doesn't
have the punch of a "woman tax," but it's the closest analogy I could
think of on short notice.

The point you are raising is a double edged sword. Yes, a system in which higher education would be free means the working class is paying for the education of the youth, which could frustrate you. But this educated youth will eventually be part of the working class and in turn be paying for the health costs of those who can't or can no longer financially contribute to society (old people and new generations of students). A short term vision can only lead to opposition between generations while a long term vision, it seems to me, harbours a more fruitful sense of social unity and cooperation.

And out of curiosity, how do you (or anyone) decide that anything is, or
isn't expensive without comparing it's cost to something else?

You can't. I'm happy tuition fees in Quebec are cheap compared to the rest of Canada and I want it to stay that way. In my ideal world, tuition fees would be almost free and that being said, I don't see the rest of Canada as a model to follow. The current Quebec government is just leading us along the path of good old fashioned North American individualism and I oppose the idea.

Too true, as that is news-worthy....& thus brings up a different but related
topic. Those in the protests wearing masks & facial coverings. In that
situation (in a crowd, or protest, or riot, or whatever, etc...), when it's not
done (covering ones face) to combat the weather (-30c, etc....), should
that be a crime unto itself (hiding ones identity)?

Like really, is this masking of one's identity in that situation needed,
unless you're going to chuck a rock through a window or light a car
on fire? I doubt these people enter a bank with their faces covered
like that, for obvious reasons, and I don't see the protest situation
as being much different.

I'm curious, how many of you heard about last Sunday's MASSIVE demonstration for Earth day in Montreal?

April 22, 2012 -- Earth day, Montreal - YouTube

Not a single violent act happened. Yet from what I saw, this hasn't gathered much attention outside Quebec media. There was at least 250 000 people who gathered. I was there and was flabbergasted to see so many people gathered peacefully.

 

[gerryh]

How is it Quebec can afford such low tuition fees?

 

[s_lone]

How is it Quebec can afford such low tuition fees?

One thing is for sure, if Quebec can afford it, you folks can!

On a serious note, I think most of Quebec's education system is payed for by Quebecers with provincial income tax, which is pretty high. Of course, Quebec receives equalization payments. But please show me the math that demonstrates how Quebec is stopping other provinces from lowering its tuition fees. Are we really stopping you from anything at all?

Do you want lower tuition fees in your province? If so, what stops you from getting them?