Elizabeth Warren - The Two Income Trap:

[Tonington]

You call yourself a scientist?

No, I don't. Maybe you missed my sarcasm...if we follow Petros logic, addition of any quality cannot be growth unless it produces a new maximum. Afterall, the American economy he says can't be growing because it is recovering from a large recession.

By that same logic, the man who gains weight after losing weight, isn't really gaining weight, they are simply recovering. That's asinine. Similarly, species that reach historic lows are not gaining when their population goes up...tumors that shrink and then begin to grow again are not actually growing, they are recovering, according to Petros logic.

I can think of plenty of examples from my own field where a quantity gets smaller and then larger again. Antibodies and viral pressure in challenge tanks, all sorts of things biologically go up and down, deterministically as well as randomly. We don't say that they aren't growing in number or gaining in some fashion simply because at one point there was more...

 

[petros]

A simple analogy. If two cars are racing and one is a lap and a half back and the losing car gains a half lap in a short period is it now winning the race?

 

[Tonington]

A simple analogy. If two cars are racing and one is a lap and a half back and the losing car gains a half lap in a short period is it now winning the race?

It is a simple analogy, and it's completely divorced from what I said. I said the American economy is now growing faster. I never said anything about absolute values, like 6 toes.

I guess we could extend your logic a bit though. America produces far more GDP than Canada does. Many multiples. So it must be winning :roll:

 

[petros]

It's an economy stupid. They don't "grow" until they surpass the benchmark prior to losses.

I hope you old lady manages your money.

 

[TenPenny]

No, I don't. Maybe you missed my sarcasm...if we follow Petros logic, addition of any quality cannot be growth unless it produces a new maximum. Afterall, the American economy he says can't be growing because it is recovering from a large recession.

By that same logic, the man who gains weight after losing weight, isn't really gaining weight, they are simply recovering. That's asinine. Similarly, species that reach historic lows are not gaining when their population goes up...tumors that shrink and then begin to grow again are not actually growing, they are recovering, according to Petros logic.

I can think of plenty of examples from my own field where a quantity gets smaller and then larger again. Antibodies and viral pressure in challenge tanks, all sorts of things biologically go up and down, deterministically as well as randomly. We don't say that they aren't growing in number or gaining in some fashion simply because at one point there was more...

The part that you're missing is that in this case, we are discussing the economy, which means that you have to use definitions from economics when you talk about 'growth' and 'recovery', not from weight watchers.

 

[Tonington]

The part that you're missing is that in this case, we are discussing the economy, which means that you have to use definitions from economics when you talk about 'growth' and 'recovery', not from weight watchers.

Yes, I'm well aware about what I was discussing before Petros brought up extra toes. The American economy is growing, GDP is going up and jobs are going up...would you agree with Petros and say that the American economy isn't growing?

 

[petros]

The American economy is growing

It's recovering not growing.

 

[taxslave]

And there is recession and there is contraction. You can't recover without growth...seriously I don't understand what part of that is perplexing you. I never said the US is recovered, I said it is growing faster, which is true.

I guess if a 300 pound man loses 100 pounds, and then a year and a half later he goes up to 290, he didn't actually gain any weight from 200 to 290, he was just recovering...euphemistic spin.

That is much like MF's fuzzy logic that not increasing health care spending by the same amount every year is somehow a cut.

 

[Tonington]

It's recovering not growing.

So, explain logically how an economy can recover from a recession without growth.

 

[petros]

By recovering losses.

 

[Tonington]

By recovering losses.

So, by adding more of something...

 

[petros]

Maybe this will help you?
Recovery.gov - Tracking the Money

 

[Tonington]

Maybe this will help you?
Recovery.gov - Tracking the Money

No that won't help me to understand how you can recover from a recession without growing again.

 

[petros]

Of course it won't help you when you don't have a clue.

 

[Tonington]

1+1=2 Petros. To go from one to two is growth.

 

[petros]

-1+1=1

If you keep this up you'll qualify for journalism school.

Definition of 'Economic Recovery'

A period of increasing business activity signaling the end of a recession. Much like a recession, an economic recovery is not always easy to recognize until at least several months after it has begun. Economists use a variety of indicators, including GDP, inflation, financial markets and unemployment to analyze the state of the economy and determine whether a recovery is in progress.

Read more: Economic Recovery Definition | Investopedia


Definition of 'Economic Growth'

An increase in the capacity of an economy to produce goods and services, compared from one period of time to another. Economic growth can be measured in nominal terms, which include inflation, or in real terms, which are adjusted for inflation. For comparing one country's economic growth to another, GDP or GNP per capita should be used as these take into account population differences between countries.

Read more: Economic Growth Definition | Investopedia

 

[Tonington]

-1+1=1

No, it equals zero.

For the record, I haven't denied that the American economy is recovering. If you can't understand that an economy can be recovering and growing concurrently, well then I'm not really surprised at all that you think -1 + 1 =1.

But hey, you can still get a plus one on this forum for being math challenged! :lol:

 

[petros]

You don't like when I use your economic math and correct economic terminology?

 

[Tonington]

You don't like when I use your economic math and correct economic terminology?

I don't care if you can't use math correctly, doesn't impact me at all. Yes, you quoted some terms about economics, but you still apparently fail to realize that for recovery to take place, that growth needs to occur. Did you not notice the similar terms in both definitions?

 

[petros]

I don't care if you can't use math correctly, doesn't impact me at all. Yes, you quoted some terms about economics, but you still apparently fail to realize that for recovery to take place, that growth needs to occur. Did you not notice the similar terms in both definitions?

It's your math bub. In the real world you can't have a positive until the negative is eliminated. I did notice similarities but more importantly I can grasp the differences which mandate the need for two terms to describe two seperate scenarios. Someday maybe you will.