What would YOU want to hear at church?

[Cliffy]

God was an astronaut. Prove me wrong.

How about I prove you right:

I mostly agree with you here, with these exceptions:

1. the transcendent God has determined to condescend to us, for our benefit, to comprehend a measure of His nature -- as it is portrayed before our eyes in the universe, and as it is more specifically revealed in His word;
2. the Christian faith, I'm sure you know, does not submit that the Bible is the "writings of men," as you would have it, but appointed prophets and apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit to reveal God's will; in their human capacity, the prophets sought to comprehend the very things they wrote, and the angels were perplexed; the unity of scripture is a testimony to its One Author. A group of fishermen, a Zionist, a doctor, and a Pharisee could not concoct a story that perfectly fulfilled a couple thousand years of the writings of dozens of prophets, especially as it defied everything that they were by nature, and exposed even themselves to be wretches and fools; Paul was respected by both the Greeks and the Jews; he tossed this all -- he became a fool -- for Christ.

Also, a question for you: If the Bible cannot even contain a "rudimentary understanding of the will of the infinite," then how do you know it? Do you have dreams and visions? And how is your mechanism not subject to your own criticism of a "colossal ego trip"?


Or do you rather conclude that you and I have absolutely no way of comprehending God -- that He has made no exposure of Himself in any way?

One unspoken belief of God botherers is that we are important enough to warrant god's attention. With millions and possible billions of inhabitable planets why do you think that you are important enough to be even considered within god's field of vision?

I live on Planet Earth. My comprehension of life ends at the the edge of this solar system, with 99% of the emphasis on life here on Earth. I started out 50 years ago to seek the truth. I set out on that journey with a blank slate and an open mind. That journey too me into an array of different, books, people and experiences that are the foundation of my understanding. I'm not saying that I know enough to tell people anything. What I tell people is to make their own journey because the truth cannot be handed to you. Most people choose not to be bothered and settle on hand me down "truths" of those who went before. What we end up with is a bunch of ignorant people who really have no clue what is going on, but they can sleep soundly at night because there is nothing of any substance in their heads to cause them any thought.

If you believe that there is a god that takes any interest in our species, above and beyond all others, then would it not make more sense that it would give its word to all people, in all historical time frames in all geographical locations? If the bible is the only word of god, then this god is incredibly inefficient in getting its word out there. Would this not give one doubt as to its omnipotence? Believing in the bible as the only word of god, to me, is to deny your god's intelligence and thus your own.

 

[Spade]

I would like to hear Amit!
Amit Goswami, Quantum Physics & Consciousness 1 of 3 - YouTube

 

[adopted]

One unspoken belief of God botherers is that we are important enough to warrant god's attention. With millions and possible billions of inhabitable planets why do you think that you are important enough to be even considered within god's field of vision?

It is outrageous that the Son of God condescended to this earth to live and die for us who are "unimportant" and certainly unrighteous. This is the gospel that continues to fascinate and captivate us. "...one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die — but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

...would it not make more sense that it would give its word to all people, in all historical time frames in all geographical locations? If the bible is the only word of god, then this god is incredibly inefficient in getting its word out there. Would this not give one doubt as to its omnipotence? Believing in the bible as the only word of god, to me, is to deny your god's intelligence and thus your own.

On the one hand, you say it is egotistical to presume to comprehend anything about the infinite God -- on the other hand, you presume to know better than He does, and tell Him how he ought to do things -- for how it would make sense from the opinion of a self-confessed "unimportant" person.

When the story is finished, everybody "in all historical time frames in all geographical locations" will be more than abundantly clear on who He is and on His glory. But He isn't obliged to achieve that in the method you desire or recommend.

 

[Cliffy]

I like this animated fellow. Wolf is quite brilliant too.

Fred Alan Wolf, Ph.D on Poppin the Quiff 1 of 2 - YouTube!

 

[adopted]

I would like to hear Amit!

Is Amit pretending to use science to preach "the secret"?

It sounds like he's saying, "consciousness must be really important, because mathematics cannot explain it."

It's certainly not science. It reminds me of Zen Buddhism -- the illusion of profoundness is the creator of profoundness.

I like this animated fellow. Wolf is quite brilliant too.

Fred Alan Wolf, Ph.D on Poppin the Quiff 1 of 2 - YouTube!

Postmodernism -- is that your religion?

 

[Cliffy]

Is Amit pretending to use science to preach "the secret"?

It sounds like he's saying, "consciousness must be really important, because mathematics cannot explain it."

It's certainly not science. It reminds me of Zen Buddhism -- the illusion of profoundness is the creator of profoundness.

What Quantum physics is pointing to is a marriage of spirituality and science, a meeting place where what the mystics have been say for thousands of years was correct after all. It was our comprehension of what they were saying that was faulty. It is dogmatic thinking that clouds our understanding by assuming absolutes when reality is not solid at all until the observer decides to observe. Zen is one spiritual system that promotes such understanding of reality but not the only one. What most people have a problem with is getting past the symbolisms used. It is their lack of understanding the meanings of the person using the symbolism intends by its use.

This has been one of my main focuses in studying multiple disciplines, to understand the meanings behind the various symbolisms used by different belief systems. When that is understood, even rudimentary understanding, then one begins to see the universal truths contained in all systems. Quantum physics bridges the gap between system by bringing into the picture unifying principles. It is the reason I am saying that literal interpretations of ancient texts are dangerous, because they are all symbolic. Literal translations encase the mind in cement and eliminate the possibility of understanding the intent of the teachings. All the ancient teaching originated in mathematics, going back to the Sumerians and ancient Chinese.

Postmodernism -- is that your religion?

I don't have a religion. Religions are dangerous. I prefer an open mind.

 

[adopted]

I don't have a religion. Religions are dangerous. I prefer an open mind.

I know what you mean here, but I'm referring to "religion" defined as a set of beliefs and practices, and/or that which is fundamentally important to you.

What Quantum physics is pointing to is a marriage of spirituality and science, a meeting place where what the mystics have been say for thousands of years was correct after all. It was our comprehension of what they were saying that was faulty. It is dogmatic thinking that clouds our understanding by assuming absolutes when reality is not solid at all until the observer decides to observe. Zen is one spiritual system that promotes such understanding of reality but not the only one. What most people have a problem with is getting past the symbolisms used. It is their lack of understanding the meanings of the person using the symbolism intends by its use.

I think what you're saying is that the rationalists of modern times are finding that science isn't answering all their questions and meeting all their human needs, so they have decided to embrace/incorporate spiritualism of some form. I see that.

This has been one of my main focuses in studying multiple disciplines, to understand the meanings behind the various symbolisms used by different belief systems. When that is understood, even rudimentary understanding, then one begins to see the universal truths contained in all systems.

What's one example of a universal truth, Cliffy?

... I am saying that literal interpretations of ancient texts are dangerous, because they are all symbolic. Literal translations encase the mind in cement and eliminate the possibility of understanding the intent of the teachings..

I believe that parts of the Bible are clearly intended to be understood "symbolically." For example, descriptions of world powers as clay and iron in Daniel, and most of the book of Revelation. Jesus also employed hyperbole in his teaching. But much of the Bible was written literally and intended to be received literally.

 

[Cliffy]

I know what you mean here, but I'm referring to "religion" defined as a set of beliefs and practices, and/or that which is fundamentally important to you.

And I am talking about keeping an open mind. Every day presents opportunities to learn something new and relevant to my life. If I was stuck in a belief system I would miss out because my mind would be closed to any data that would conflict with my belief system. The only spiritual practices I have had over the last 50 years have been aboriginal in origin, because, while living in the forest, they made more sense to me. It did not say that I could not look into other ways of seeing things or to investigate other belief systems. I was just a way of connecting to the life around me which was mostly wildlife and nature in the raw. I never treated my involvement in a dogmatic way, but of a way of expressing what I was experiencing in my relationship to my surroundings. My learning process has not, nor will it ever until I die, stop. Life is my teacher. I have no need of salvation or after lives. If anything, I am Zen in that I strive to be here now.

 

[MHz]

You two are funny,adapted and Mhz. You both claim to read the bible word for word and you both come to very different interpretations. You both claim that every word is true and infallible and that the way you see it is the only way to see it. You guys don't get it. You just think the other is reading it wrong. There is a reason there are 3500 different Christian sects - the bible is ambiguous and contradictory and was never meant to be taken literally. In the hands of the uninitiated it is meaningless gibberish and you two are poster boys for the absurdity of your own claims.

Of the three of us it is you who has trouble rubbing two verses together and coming up with something. If it could be followed and understood that would lessen the need for Jesus to come back. My version has the 70 weeks of Daniel completed, if that is a cornerstone the rest can't get too far off-track, it isn't popular but it has many passages supporting it. Putting Rome in the brass empire is enough to make some start pulling their hair and teeth out, figuratively. .
Those 'differences' and 'conflicts' do not have the same resolutions for us, as to who is right that can't be determined until people start coming alive again, the last to be killed are the first two to be resurrected.

The 'overall' message of the Bible is there is something called salvation and the way that comes about is told in the bible. The ways and means are speculation until they are hindsight. You say 3500 versions exist, yet you don't see that as being 'against all odds' when multiple authors are considered to be the writers rather than one writer with a complex story (yet sane). 3 or 5 or even 35 versions by some 'rookie writers' who had 15 minutes of fame and poof, never heard from again.

If Jesus died on the cross then the events about the 'other bruise' to a fallen angel is also literal. The description is all there in the various prophecies, reading a few verses or recalling the stories from when you heard the bible stories is not equal to going over the material as a 'mature and logical adult' and then coming to a decision as to what the (actual) words say.

I was already a believer when i started reading for myself and some things made more sense than others. The part that made sense later proved to be helpful in understanding some of the more 'confusing passages'. When you first read Hebrews 12 it isn't readily apparent who is being 'chastised' and after reading some other passages it would be 'provable' that we are to understand the ones being chastised are the ones called 'the rest' in Re:20. That means they are given a verbal dressing and then life goes on as it would in a father/son type of relationship, rather than 'the rest' being tossed into the lake as is proposed by many Christians, if 'Christians' have that attitude on the day of return it is more likely they will be part of 'the rest' rather than part of the 'elect'.

What's one example of a universal truth, Cliffy?

The Bible can be separated into two groups, one for each of the two bruises mentioned in Ge:3:15

I believe that parts of the Bible are clearly intended to be understood "symbolically." For example, descriptions of world powers as clay and iron in Daniel, and most of the book of Revelation. Jesus also employed hyperbole in his teaching. But much of the Bible was written literally and intended to be received literally.

Jesus taught 'the masses' by parable, in private the Disciples got 'the inside story' even if it was not always understood.

I could show you how the iron an clay are symbolic terms for literal beings and just as the head of gold and the two kings of the silver and Alex being the first king of the brass empire they were about literal people places events. The iron/clay is no difference. The harlot of Revelation and the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 are given in vision and then followed by an explanation of the vision. In both cases do the explanations point to literal events unfolding?

Keep asking those sorts of questions and finding answers in some passage or another and that is the type of conclusion that must be considered.

 

[lone wolf]

Do Bible breathers expect a written entry exam at the Pearly Gates?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What Quantum physics is pointing to is a marriage of spirituality and science, a meeting place where what the mystics have been say for thousands of years was correct after all.

Quantum physics points to no such thing, it's New Age BS merchants who point to that, based on no comprehension of quantum theory at all beyond a rudimentary and incorrect understanding of a few of its counter-intuitive results. It's fully consistent with an objective reality that exists regardless of anyone's perceptions of it. Bringing spirituality into the mix elucidates exactly nothing, produces no useful insights or testable ideas.

 

[Spade]

Quantum physics points to no such thing, it's New Age BS merchants who point to that, based on no comprehension of quantum theory at all beyond a rudimentary and incorrect understanding of a few of its counter-intuitive results. It's fully consistent with an objective reality that exists regardless of anyone's perceptions of it. Bringing spirituality into the mix elucidates exactly nothing, produces no useful insights or testable ideas.

Take a look at Amit Goswami's credentials.

 

[Cliffy]

Take a look at Amit Goswami's credentials.

And Wolf's credentials. Both are established professors of Quantum Physics (retired). What I find interesting about you Dex is you dogmatic approach to science. To me it is everything you rail against in religion. You don't seem to be capable of entertaining the slightest possibility outside accepted scientific dogma.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I just draw a sharp line between speculation and science, and labeling the former as the latter is BS.

 

[Cliffy]

I just draw a sharp line between speculation and science, and labeling the former as the latter is BS.

So why can't you seem to be able to process the theoretical explanations of two quantum physicists, when you mentioned one time (I believe) that all science is theoretical?

It is not like we are talking about the electric universe here.

I know what you mean here, but I'm referring to "religion" defined as a set of beliefs and practices, and/or that which is fundamentally important to you.

I think what you're saying is that the rationalists of modern times are finding that science isn't answering all their questions and meeting all their human needs, so they have decided to embrace/incorporate spiritualism of some form. I see that.

There is far more going on than meets the eye in our reality. To me, spirituality was brought down a simple truth: we are all part of the One, all interconnected and interdependent, of all life on this planet, what the aboriginal people call The Web of Life.

What's one example of a universal truth, Cliffy?

For every action (thought, word and deed) there is an equal and opposite reaction - Karma.

I believe that parts of the Bible are clearly intended to be understood "symbolically." For example, descriptions of world powers as clay and iron in Daniel, and most of the book of Revelation. Jesus also employed hyperbole in his teaching. But much of the Bible was written literally and intended to be received literally.

This just shows that you know nothing of the history and intent of the bible.

 

[GreenFish66]

What would I want to hear if I was at church?..I would like to hear about GOD..The #1 original energy..Depending on the church I was in...

Spirituality is the way to go ...Religions hold too many grudges/Carry too much weight.

All this talk of God gets way too heavy, too deep ..Weighs on the mind..

iITt. is, what it is ...What was and always shall be ..

All in 1

Peace..

_______________________________

...and If by chance you get stuck bein' Big Papa Gs Big Toe....Be the best Damn Big Toe that ever was ..is..and Shall/Will be...

 

[Cliffy]

Of the three of us it is you who has trouble rubbing two verses together and coming up with something. If it could be followed and understood that would lessen the need for Jesus to come back. My version has the 70 weeks of Daniel completed, if that is a cornerstone the rest can't get too far off-track, it isn't popular but it has many passages supporting it. Putting Rome in the brass empire is enough to make some start pulling their hair and teeth out, figuratively. .
Those 'differences' and 'conflicts' do not have the same resolutions for us, as to who is right that can't be determined until people start coming alive again, the last to be killed are the first two to be resurrected.

Blah,blah, blah, blah, blah!

Keep asking those sorts of questions and finding answers in some passage or another and that is the type of conclusion that must be considered.

"There is a reason there are 3500 different Christian sects - the bible is ambiguous and contradictory and was never meant to be taken literally. In the hands of the uninitiated it is meaningless gibberish and you two are poster boys for the absurdity of your own claims."

And your nonsensical rant proves my point. You are not an initiate which is obvious by your complete lack of understanding of the bible's meaning and purpose. Life is for living just for the adventure of it. Spending all your time fussing over an ancient text that you do not have a clue of its purpose is to waste the life your god gave you. Live is a journey not a destination. You have missed the whole point of being alive. Not only sad beyond measure but really an insult to your creator.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So why can't you seem to be able to process the theoretical explanations of two quantum physicists, when you mentioned one time (I believe) that all science is theoretical?

I wouldn't have said that, because it's not true, but I have said all knowledge but the trivial is provisional to some degree, while also usually pointing out that what's considered trivial changes as knowledge advances. I can process those guys' claims alright, I just think they've gone a little dotty. There are at least two dozen speculative explanations for what quantum physics "really means," and no evidential basis on which to choose among them. There's not even any good reason to think any of them might be right, we simply don't know. Nick Herbert does a good job of laying them all out in a book called Quantum Reality.

Either there is evidence of the paranormal and the supernatural or there isn't, and the fact is that there isn't. Quantum physics does not explain free will or consciousness, or allow us to create our own reality, or justify claims about far out stuff like a unified cosmic consciousness, or any of the other religious, philosophical, and spiritual claims based on quantum ideas. It takes several hundred pages of closely reasoned analysis, and a deep understanding of quantum physics, to convincingly establish that, so obviously I'm not going to do it here and I'm not really qualified to do it anyway. But Victor Stenger is, and has done it, and shows convincingly that those speculations are rooted in grotesquely inaccurate misapprehensions and misappropriations of quantum theory's concepts and results, and thus why and how those speculations are wrong. The book is called Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos, and the Search for Cosmic Consciousness. I commend it to your attention. It's not an easy book for a non-physicist, there's a lot of physics in it, but it you want a clear idea of what's true (at least provisionally) and what's not, it's worth the effort.

 

[MHz]

"There is a reason there are 3500 different Christian sects - the bible is ambiguous and contradictory and was never meant to be taken literally. In the hands of the uninitiated it is meaningless gibberish and you two are poster boys for the absurdity of your own claims."

And your nonsensical rant proves my point. You are not an initiate which is obvious by your complete lack of understanding of the bible's meaning and purpose. Life is for living just for the adventure of it. Spending all your time fussing over an ancient text that you do not have a clue of its purpose is to waste the life your god gave you. Live is a journey not a destination. You have missed the whole point of being alive. Not only sad beyond measure but really an insult to your creator.

You don't even understand what I said, that is you base for calling it a 'rant'. For you to detrermine that my view of the bible is wrong you would have to know a claim and then 'debunk it', for instance with your understanding do yopu see the Roman Empire in this prophecy that covers her whole 400 years of rule (with the sword) over Jerusalem? (the finer points of the answer can be saved for later, for now a 'yes' or 'no' will do.

Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.
Da:8:10:
And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped upon them.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.

With the question being , does this describe Rome throughout the NT (and before and beyond) I could supply an explanation as to why it is Rome. I find it highly unlikely that you can accurately lecture me on what various parts of the Bible mean. I doubt you can even come up with a 'wrong version' for most actual passages. Do it for Isa:65 right now and I'll retract that statement.

Either there is evidence of the paranormal and the supernatural or there isn't, and the fact is that there isn't. .

So the theory goes that for 'normal' and 'natural' there is 'evidense', ....... why are 'para' and 'super' versions held to the same standards, if they were the same then they would not have the 'extra letters' in their title/name.

Live is a journey not a destination. You have missed the whole point of being alive. Not only sad beyond measure but really an insult to your creator.

Just to show that you really don't have a clue at all. If you could trace my daily path as being footsteps across a field covered with new snow you would see my path between 'point 'A' and point 'B' weaves from side to side rather than being a straight line as would be the case for 'most mature people' when they are 'on a mission called life'. By weaving I travel a longer path and I see more things close up and all things get paid attention, the ones going in a straight-line are the ones who have forgotten how to life life.
Spare me the sermon as it sounds more like your life than mine.

 

[Cliffy]

Htz, it is pointless to even talk to you. You have zero comprehension of what I said, zero comprehension of what the bible is and zero comprehension of why you were born. Carry on.