Amanda Knox: Guilty or victim of conspiracy?

[SirJosephPorter]

Who knows? Although there's no reason to believe that America or Canada's justice system is any superior to that of Italy's.

I think chances are every good she would have been acquitted in Canada (very likely she may not even have been charged).

There was only circumstantial evidence against her, nothing concrete. If one starts with the presumption of innocence as we do in Canada, I think it will be very difficult to prove her guilt. My understanding is that they start with presumption of guilt in Italy (at least according to CNN). Starting with the presumption of guilt, it needs strong proof to prove innocence and the defense in this case may not have done such a good job of proving her innocence.

I understand she is very young, so she may not have realized the danger she was in. Rather than go and talk to the police, she should have retained a lawyer, then gone to the police and told them what she knew, in the presence of the lawyer. The lawyer would have warned her I she was saying too much. Things that wouldn’t get her into trouble if she talked to Canadian police, may well have got her into trouble, I she discussed them with Italian police.

 

[Francis2004]

An interesting video clip with many good points about the case. Anyone following this case might want to take the 6 minutes to watch this..


Did Amanda Knox Receive a Fair Trial?

 

[AnnaG]

Who knows? Although there's no reason to believe that America or Canada's justice system is any superior to that of Italy's.

I don't know about that, but I am pretty sure our legal system is better. We don't really have a time constraint on ours so we can implement our "justice" according to the idea of severity of crime crossed with the idea of first come first serve.
Italy has a time limit on their "justice":

Italy's justice system: Imposing limits | The Economist

haste makes waste.

 

[Andem]

I'm reopening this topic on account of the case being mentioned in another thread AND of an upcoming appeal ruling which is expected by the Italian and British press of resulting in an acquittal**. I actually read about the probable aquittal before I read the thread by Ariane on her son being attacked on the same day.

I've been convinced of the couple's innocence since day 1. The fact that a man from Africa and a stranger, Rudy Guede, had his DNA strewn across the crime scene, while the Knox/Sollecito couple (who were unknown to Guede) weren't linked to the crime scene deeply disturbed me when they were found guilty.

** Sorry, I can't find the original article about this.

 

[Ariadne]

I've been following the case since before the trial ... uncertain about the guilt or innocence until the trial. At that time, I became convinced of the guilt of all three culprits.

Rudy Guede was born in the Ivory Coast, but he moved to Italy at the age of 5. As a youth, his father returned to the Ivory Coast and Rudy was adopted by a prominent family in Perugia, where the murder occurred. Rudy Guede has admitted to being present during the murder. Because he opted for the "fast track" court hearing, his sentence was automatically reduced to 1/3 the original sentence ... it is a point of law that all suspects that opt for "fast track" have their sentence reduced by 1/3.

There is quite a bit of evidence against Sollecito and Knox, with the biggest problem being that they do not have an alibi. The last known timestamp of them being in his apartment is 8:40 PM. They were watching the movie Amelie, which ran it's course and stopped playing at 9:10 PM. There was no human interaction with the computer from 8:40 until 6 the following morning, when music was accessed. Sollecito and Knox claimed they slept until 10 that morning. They also claimed that they ate dinner late, giving times of 9:30, 10 and 11 PM. Sollecito's father phone at 8:30 and was told that they had just finished dinner. Therefore, the times of 9:30, 10 and 11 are untrue. They have no alibi or explanation for what they were doing between 8:40 and 6 the following morning. The time of death is after 9 PM and before 12:15 AM (when the victim's cell phones hit a cell tower near the garden where they were found the following morning).

The next problematic point is the staged breakin. A roommate's bedroom window was broken. Clothing in that bedroom were ransacked and thrown on the floor. The laptop was taken off the desk and also put on top of the clothing. The glass from the broken window was on top of the laptop and ransacked clothing, leading to the conclusion that first the clothes were put on the floor, then the window was broken ... thus the break in was staged. When exploring who would have a reason to stage the break in, the only possible culprit in Knox.

The cottage was broken into twice after the murder. In both cases, the culprits climbed up over the balcony and in through the kitchen window. This is a logical spot for a break in. The balcony faces away from the main road whereas the window that was broken is clearly visible from the main road.

Next, there are prints that were revealed using luminol that match Knox. The bloody print on the bathmat has been attributed to Sollecito as it is too wide and short for Guede. There are several DNA mixtures of Knox and the victim in the bathroom, hallway and in the bedroom with the broken window. In fact, there is a mixed DNA sample of the victim's blood and Knox DNA in the room with the broken window.

On top of this, we have lies and lies and lies from both Knox and Sollecito. When the knife was found in Sollecito's apartment with the victim's DNA on the blade and Knox DNA on the handle, Sollecito wrote in his diary that he accidentally cut the victim with the knife when she had dinner at his apartment. She had never been to his apartment, so that was an absolute lie. Knox, when questioned by police, accused an innocent man of murder after a 2 hour period of questioning. She then claimed that she was hit and deprived of food and drink during those two hours so she had no choice but to accuse an innocent man of murder. In fact, she had pizza with Sollecito at 10 PM, went to the police station with Sollecito when he was asked to answer a few questions and at 1:45 she had signed a statement accusing an innocent man of murder. She confirmed that statement at 5:45 AM, but neither of those statements were admissable in court. The following day, when she was alone, she requested pen and paper and confirmed that what she said about the innocent man was true. That statement was admissable in court because it was a voluntary statement. For the following two weeks, that man was in jail. At no time did Knox do anything to correct the lie that she told. He was finally released when another man came forward and provided an alibi.

In my opinion, the Public Relations firm hired by Knox's family has done a good job of controlling information in the US media. I have followed the case by reading judge's summaries (it is required that a judge write a summary of the legal decisions) that were translated to English by a group of professional translators that volunteered their time. It's a difficult case because the Italian legal system is quite different than Canadian or US law.

The next hearing is September 5. That is a continuation of the hearings related to the DNA report that was prepared by two Rome academics/experts. The report is very controversial. For example, the experts have alleged that the DNA on the knife blade could be a result of DNA that was left on a testing machine (contamination in the lab), but when questioned the experts admitted that the machine had not been used for 6 days. If I recall correctly, contamination was also alleged with the DNA from the bra clasp. That DNA has been confirmed to match Sollecito, and again it was suggested that the machines were dirty. However, it had been 12 days since any related DNA or evidence from the crime scene had been tested. Thus, contamination in the lab has been put in doubt.

The case could go either way in this appeal, but there is still the Supreme Court ruling. In the case of Guede, it was concluded that he did not act alone.

 

[damngrumpy]

This is one of those cases where the truth was likely the first casualty of the court system.
I tend to believe its more about having a resident American in jail than an actual guilt or
not guilty thing. The Italians will prove their point and she will be sentenced to a lengthy
period in prison. When the shouting dies down she will be sent home, and it will fade into
the annals of history. Face it the court the prosecution and the prison system messed up
and they are not going to admit it. Amanda is no long on trial the Italian court system is.

 

[Ariadne]

All three: Knox, Sollecito and Guede have been found guilty and convicted of murder. They are sentenced to 26, 25 and 16 years. Knox got extra time for accusing an innocent man of murder. Guede had his sentence reduced from 24 to 16 years because he opted for the fast track option. During this appeal, the majority of the points were denied. The only evidence that was reconsidered was an eyewitness testimony of a homeless man and the DNA evidence on the knife and bra clasp. The decision regarding these two points, and the appeal in general, will be given in October. Then it goes to the Supreme Court for another review. The appeals are automatic in Italy.

The Italian court system isn't on trial. Italian law functions within the EU and the appeal process echoes the normal appeal process in the EU. Italian law is based on Roman law, as is Dutch law. There's nothing strange about it, it's just different from US law ... but Canadian law is different from US law too.

A British woman was murdered in Perugia Italy and, after a lengthy trial, three people were convicted. If the victim were American and the culprit was British, the US would be applauding the Italian legal system ... in my humble opinion.

Another interesting international case is that of missing Maryland woman Robyn Gardner. She and Gary Giordano went to Aruba and two days later she was missing. His story of snorkeling in an area known for riptides does not add up. Dutch law (based on Roman law, like in Italy) allows for Giordano to be detained for 8 day without being charged. He can be questioned for up to 6 hours per day without a lawyer. After 8 days, the prosecutor must go before a judge and argue that new information has been obtained. The suspect can then be detained for another 8 days. In this case, he was in fact given another 16 days. In the next appearance before a judge, he can be detained for another 60 days if there is additional evidence.

How criminal law works in different countries interests me.

 

[Ariadne]

I firmly believe that Knox and Sollecito are involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. The only way to argue that she is innocent is to argue the sum of the parts, one at a time, discard them and ignore the whole. Every strategy in the book as been used, including alleging that the jury is biased because they were not sequestered ( a lot of good that did in the Anthony trial), one prosecutor is corrupt and let's pretend the other prosecutor was not there, investigators were incompetent, forensic experts were bumbling fools, the lovebirds weren't lying but rather each provided incriminating voluntary statements for no reason, Knox accused an innocent man of murder because she was pyschologically/physically tortured and deprived of the necessities of life for 2 hours shortly after scarfing a pizza ... and so on.

What did Knox say when she was at the police station immediately after the murder, surrounded by Meredith's crying friends wondering how their friend died ... Knox said: "she fukcing bled to death". Knox was able to produce this remarkable piece of information even though she barely spoke Italian, was not at the bedroom door when the body was discovered and the coroner did not yet know the cause of death (Meredith was under a duvet except for a foot). Meredith did indeed bleed to death after being stabbed twice in the neck (once on each side of her body with two different knives) and being partially strangled. Knox was still at the police station when she mused about writing a song about her murdered roommate and said that she "could kill for a pizza ... ha ha" while flirting with Sollecito - sitting on his lap and sticking out her tongue.

It was the night that she was arrested that she flipped cartwheels and did the splits in the police station (she was told to cut it out) ... according to a friend of the family she was being a "restless teenager". At 20, Knox was no teenager. With a year of university under her belt, she had just finished blowing off a 2 week job at the Bundesrepublik in Germany. She didn't actually blow it all off ... she kept the apartment that came with the job for the two weeks, but spent the time hooking up with new friends in the park. When she got caught ... that is ... the uncle that arranged the job found out what she did ... she wrote in her myspace page that she produced a few tears, suckered him and ended it with "ciao sucker".

Knox was not a nice person before she arrived in Italy and not after she arrived in Italy.

 

[Ariadne]

Wow ... just read through the thread. Why would Italy decide to railroad a woman from Seattle? Yes the family claims that there is no evidence, but they are restricting the crime scene to a few feet on either side of the body and pretending that DNA evidence is all that matters. There is some forensic evidence throughout the cottage - the crime scene, that is being contested in the appeal. Only the knife, which was at Sollecito's apartment and the bra clasp are being considered during appeal. Circumstantial evidence was relied upon for a couple of hundred years, DNA evidence arrived in about 1995. To suggest that the circumstantial evidence would have been thrown out in Canada ... I doubt it. This is a strong circumstantial case with supporting DNA evidence. It's unfortunate, but it appears that Sollecito (who had priors for drugs and bestiality film) and Knox (who had a prior disorderly conduct) elicited the participation of Rudy Guede (who had no criminal record) in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Reading the comments, I get the impression that many have an opinion but few have delved into the case.

 

[weaselwords]

Hey, she's got the evil eye, she a as guilty as sin. Don't let American media spin doctors convince you of anything different. Amanda is not the American apple pie sweetheart.

 

[EagleSmack]

A British woman was murdered in Perugia Italy and, after a lengthy trial, three people were convicted. If the victim were American and the culprit was British, the US would be applauding the Italian legal system ... in my humble opinion.

Another interesting international case is that of missing Maryland woman Robyn Gardner. She and Gary Giordano went to Aruba and two days later she was missing. His story of snorkeling in an area known for riptides does not add up. Dutch law (based on Roman law, like in Italy) allows for Giordano to be detained for 8 day without being charged. He can be questioned for up to 6 hours per day without a lawyer. After 8 days, the prosecutor must go before a judge and argue that new information has been obtained. The suspect can then be detained for another 8 days. In this case, he was in fact given another 16 days. In the next appearance before a judge, he can be detained for another 60 days if there is additional evidence.

How criminal law works in different countries interests me.

Ahh and let's not forget the case of Louise Woodward. She was the young British nanny that smashed the head of the little boy she was watching right here in Newton Massachusetts. She was convicted of Second Degree Murder by a jury. She let out a God awful cry when the verdict was read and sobbed loudly and uncontrollably.

When it came to the sentencing... the Judge simply let her go! That's right... a convicted murderer... a baby killer... was put on the plane back to Merry Ol' England!

 

[Ariadne]

We like to believe that young women are incapable of murder, especially when they look like normal people. Canada has it's own horror show with Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. Sometimes, when two people get together, evil emerges.

 

[spaminator]

i'm sorry to hear about your son being attacked. i hope he is doing well.

 

[coldstream]

Didn't Rudy Guede, the Ivory Coast immigrant and the only defendant of the three to which there is clear incontrovertable evidence of guilt, admit the he was the SOLE perpetrator. The inconsistencies in Knox's and Sollecito's story seemed likely a product of a drug binge the pair had been on for several days. They might not have had a clue what they did.

There is a lot of strange stuff around this story, an occult and sexual intrigue, an ambitious prosecuter of tarnished reputation, a location in a rural, strongly fundamentalist religious community. The same ingredients were present in the Satanic child abuse trials in the Bible Belt of U.S. in the 80's and 90s.

Almost all were overturned, with charges of coached children and an utter lack of evidence.. but played to locals fears and prejudices. They are now considered some of the greatest travesties of justice in U.S. history, a product of hysteria and mob rule.

 

[EagleSmack]

There is a lot of strange stuff around this story, an occult and sexual intrigue, an ambitious prosecuter of tarnished reputation, a location in a rural, strongly fundamentalist religious community. The same ingredients were present in the Satanic child abuse trials in the Bible Belt of U.S. in the 80's and 90s.

Bible Belt!? Is Massachusetts considered the Bible Belt? We had one of the biggest child abuse witch trials ever at the Fell's Acre Daycare in Malden, Mass. Other cases were from California, Washington state, New Jersey, New York, N. Carolina, Florida, New Zealand, Brazil, and Canada.

In doing a quick research on this I only found two "Satanic Child Abuse" trials one was in Florida and the other in Martensville... Sascatchewan. Is that considered part of the US Bible Belt these days?

 

[spaminator]

 

[coldstream]

Bible Belt!? Is Massachusetts considered the Bible Belt? We had one of the biggest child abuse witch trials ever at the Fell's Acre Daycare in Malden, Mass. Other cases were from California, Washington state, New Jersey, New York, N. Carolina, Florida, New Zealand, Brazil, and Canada.

In doing a quick research on this I only found two "Satanic Child Abuse" trials one was in Florida and the other in Martensville... Sascatchewan. Is that considered part of the US Bible Belt these days?

I seem to remember they also occurred in places other than the traditional Bible Belt in the U.S.. but i also seem to remember they were incubated in fundamentalist and Evangelical communities, which are everywhere now.. with juries drawn from that demographic.

The Martensville Case as i remember it was the sole Canadian example, and i think it was thrown out of court before it got to trial. The other U.S. examples, all revealed to be fabrications.. all had 'cult' constructs.. with multiple defendants.. and bizarre rituals.

Whether you use the word 'Satanic' or not, these were aimed at deeply held religious prejudice.. they were Witch Hunts, and of course those began in Salem, Mass. and have never fully left some sectors of the American consciousness.

 

[Ariadne]

Didn't Rudy Guede, the Ivory Coast immigrant and the only defendant of the three to which there is clear incontrovertable evidence of guilt, admit the he was the SOLE perpetrator. The inconsistencies in Knox's and Sollecito's story seemed likely a product of a drug binge the pair had been on for several days. They might not have had a clue what they did.

There is a lot of strange stuff around this story, an occult and sexual intrigue, an ambitious prosecuter of tarnished reputation, a location in a rural, strongly fundamentalist religious community. The same ingredients were present in the Satanic child abuse trials in the Bible Belt of U.S. in the 80's and 90s.

Almost all were overturned, with charges of coached children and an utter lack of evidence.. but played to locals fears and prejudices. They are now considered some of the greatest travesties of justice in U.S. history, a product of hysteria and mob rule.

Quite the opposite. Guede was brought in to testify and in fact placed both Sollecito and Knox at the scene of the crime. There's nothing in it for Guede ... his case is over, his sentence is determined and nothing he says or doesn't say will make any difference. He was required to testify.

There's no occult or strange stuff associated with the murder .. that's fantasy from the Public Relations company hired by the Knox family and a novelist named Doug Preston ... it's nothing more than a ridiculous attempt to discredit the prosecutor.

There were two prosecutors involved in the case related to Knox and Sollecito. One has been severely criticised, but there is not a single complaint that can be made against the other.

" Rudy Guede - who was separately convicted of killing Ms Kercher in November 2007 - said the American and her then boyfriend were guilty.
In a letter read out to the court as he sat in the witness box, he said: "This splendid, marvellous girl was killed by Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox."

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16019661

 

[EagleSmack]

I seem to remember they also occurred in places other than the traditional Bible Belt in the U.S.. but i also seem to remember they were incubated in fundamentalist and Evangelical communities.. with juries drawn from that demographic.

The Martensville Case as i remember it was the sole Canadian example, and i think it was thrown out of court before it got to trial. The other U.S. examples, all revealed to be fabrications.. all had 'cult' constructs.. with multiple defendants.. and bizarre rituals. Whether you use the word Satanic or not, these were aimed at deeply held religious prejudice.. they were Witch Hunts, and of course those began in Salem, Mass. and have never fully left some sectors of the American consciousness.

To say Malden Massachusetts is an evangelical community or an incubator for fundementalist is laughable.

The only thing you are right about this is that in almost all cases it was hysteria and there was injustice. Fells Acre had no Satanic accusations nor did any save two that I have read up on.

The sole Canadian example at least one man went to trial and was found guilty. That DID include accusations of the cult and satanism.

Witch Hunts began long before the Salem Village witch hunts/witch hysteria (today Salem Village is now called Danvers, Massachusetts). The city of Salem gets all the tourist and Danvers has the village and church foundations of where the hysteria began regarding that specific and unjust witch hunt.

I would think Witch Hunts and hysteria began across the pond long before the Europeans came to the "New World". Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Andem]

his sentence was automatically reduced to 1/3 the original sentence ... it is a point of law that all suspects that opt for "fast track" have their sentence reduced by 1/3.

I was under the impression that his sentence was reduced because the judge viewed him as the only one who apoligised for the death to the Kercher family.

There are several DNA mixtures of Knox and the victim in the bathroom

Well they were room mates who shared a bathroom.

and in the bedroom with the broken window

Wrong. There is no DNA evidence from the room which place Knox or Sollecito there.

There is quite a bit of evidence against Sollecito and Knox, with the biggest problem being that they do not have an alibi.

Their alibi is shaky. Amanda did testify that she was often under the influence of marijuana, but there is very little real evidence that either were at the scene of the crime. Not of piece of forensic evidence places them in the room that Kercher was murdered. The bra clasp had been collected as evidence over 40 days after the events surrounding the murder, which had somehow been moved from one side of the apartment to the other by investigators.

When the knife was found in Sollecito's apartment with the victim's DNA on the blade and Knox DNA on the handle

There was not enough DNA on the knife to be credibly used as evidence.

That is a continuation of the hearings related to the DNA report that was prepared by two Rome academics/experts. The report is very controversial.

In fact, there is very little scientific controversy surrounding the way the DNA was handled.

The case could go either way in this appeal, but there is still the Supreme Court ruling. In the case of Guede, it was concluded that he did not act alone.

You're right. There is a bloody fingerprint on the pillow which does not match that of either three of the convicted.

Knox, when questioned by police, accused an innocent man of murder after a 2 hour period of questioning.

Sorry. I've heard of 12 hours, 13 and 15 hours.. but nowhere have I seen that she made accusations after just 2 hours.

At no time did Knox do anything to correct the lie that she told.

I agree that this is despicable.

If I recall correctly, contamination was also alleged with the DNA from the bra clasp. That DNA has been confirmed to match Sollecito, and again it was suggested that the machines were dirty.

That's not the story with the bra clasp. The clasp was collected over 40 days after the crime, found in another section of the apartment strewn around with debris.

Knox was not a nice person before she arrived in Italy and not after she arrived in Italy.

That may very well be true, but not being a nice person doesn't make them guilty of murder. Regarding the cartwheels, being questioned for hours on end while sitting on uncomfortable chairs might make me want to stretch too.. In fact on long flights, I usually walk several times up and down the aisles and stretch in the back galley.

With regards to some of her remarks and weird behaviour, Knox claimed she was friends with Kercher. How would you feel if a friend was murdered? People act in strange ways in that type of situation. "She f'ing bled to death" may or may not have been out of anger, frustration, sorrow or a combination.

Either way, the events portrayed by the prosecution all seem highly unlikely. Harry Potter, Strawberry Shortcake and a man from Cote d'Ivoire are hardly your typical gang of murderers. What is more likely is Guede had an accomplice (the unmatched bloody fingerprint on the pillow, hello?)

Adriane, I highly appreciate your dedication to this case, but some of your points above are simply false or not-exactly-true.

The German name for Germany is actually "Bundesrepublik Deutschland", I know the government here doesn't hire foreigners in Italy to work for ministries for 2 weeks.

Quite the opposite. Guede was brought in to testify and in fact placed both Sollecito and Knox at the scene of the crime. There's nothing in it for Guede ... his case is over, his sentence is determined and nothing he says or doesn't say will make any difference.

And how many times did Guede change his story? It was constanly evolving and changing throughout the entire proceedings. Perhaps he's trying to protect the person who's unmatched, bloody fingerprint was found on the pillow at the scene of the crime?