Evaluating the Conservatives

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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Just to keep this in perspective:

Canadian Public Debt Clock

Remember when those dirty Liberals were paying off the debt and things were getting better....:roll:

Yep, sort of miss those days of sound fiscal management.

Thanks Paul and Jean.

They were, and they did a good job with the revenue flow they had...........no denying that.

Mulroney did a good job of setting up the government for vastly improved revenue flow with the creation of the GST.....which the Liberals promised to cancel, but you know, that was before they were in power.......

The GST replaced the MST....not exactly a new tax with new income.

You bet & bailing money out of the provincial coffers like there was no tomorrow. Have to admit though he had me fooled for a few years. :smile:

You mean like Farty did to municipalities in Ontario?

At least Martin paid down some debt, Farty was too busy giving himself a tax cut by creating a loophole for owners of historic homes

Somebody wants an election....

Does it ryhme with Heven Starper?
 

JLM

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That is just silly. The current national debt is $562 billion. The
country was broke after Mulroney. The Liberals were at least
paying down the debt.


How do you know it's $562 billion? Do you know what is being counted as debt? Does the include the debt owed by the provinces and all the municipal Gov't.s? How much of that money is covered by capital assets? A figure on it's own is absolutely meaningless. Let's say I owe $3 million dollars but among my assets is a $4million house. Get the drift?
 

Avro

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How do you know it's $562 billion? Do you know what is being counted as debt? Does the include the debt owed by the provinces and all the municipal Gov't.s? How much of that money is covered by capital assets? A figure on it's own is absolutely meaningless. Let's say I owe $3 million dollars but among my assets is a $4million house. Get the drift?

Are you insane?
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Yep, sort of miss those days of sound fiscal management.

Thanks Paul and Jean.

Along with help from the three "have" provinces of the day.





Does it ryhme with Heven Starper?

He's the only one who will benefit from it. (and the beauty of it is he is letting the other two idiots destruct themselves)
 

Avro

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He's the only one who will benefit from it. (and the beauty of it is he is letting the other two idiots destruct themselves)

He thinks he will which is why he playing "the game."

Politics is politics.
 

Avro

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When I was a young fella (eons ago) I was taught the surest method of spotting insanity was looking at those who figure everyone else is nuts. :lol:

It was a question, I didn't accuse you of anything.
 

Avro

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Ooooooooooops sorry- Who isn't a little bit? :lol:

That would explain your view on the debt....well....when it's a cons debt that is.

I'm sure it's different when it's a Liberal debt.

Reminds me of the days of Bob Rae in Ontario and Farty was in opposition with the Harris cons.

You see, in those days according to Farty, debts were verboten and stimulous spending was out of line in a time of reccession but alas, fast forward 20 years and suddenly all those things are a-okay.

I'll never forget the screaming and yelling that went on at Queens Park over the debt and watched little Jimmy do it with my own eyes and now?.....well it's all quiet from the little dwarf....but his wife is yelling about it in Ontario and whining about an HST that Farty baited the Liberals into doing with billions in transfers.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Before drawing conclusions about the Conservatives I'm wondering if we shouldn't be paying a little more attention to Flaherty and a little less to Harper.

Irrelevant.

Remember that both Flaherty and Harper each have but one vote in Parliament like any other MP. Add to that that the power they have in their respective capacities of PM and Minister of Finance are granted to Harper by the membership of the Party (with implicit or explicit support from an opposition party or coalition party in the event of a minority Parliament) and to Flaherty from Harper (imdirectly via the support maintaining his position as MP).

Looking at it that way, assuming half the Conservative candidates in an election are idiots and half are geniuses, and assuming half or fewer of them actually win a seat in Parliament, you can see that the quality of the Conservative membership in Parliament and the Cabinet they will choose could be radically different depending on whether those Conservatives who win a seat comprise the geniuses or the idiots of the party, or some mixture of them.

The same applies to any party by the way. In the end the quality of the party in power will largely be determined by the composition of MPs in that party and, especially in the case of a minority Parliament, also the support or lack thereof from the opposition, also determined by their membership.

Just to take a simple example, the composition of the Liberal Party today is quite different from the composition of the same party in Paul Martin's time. So in the end, you do have to look at the character of the individual candidate, because in the end he too will contribute, even if only as a backbencher in the opposition, to the overall running of the government. And personally, I'd rather vote in a backbencher of integrity than a Cabinet member lacking it, regardless of party affiliation.
 

JLM

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That would explain your view on the debt....well....when it's a cons debt that is.

I'm sure it's different when it's a Liberal debt.

Reminds me of the days of Bob Rae in Ontario and Farty was in opposition with the Harris cons.

You see, in those days according to Farty, debts were verboten and stimulous spending was out of line in a time of reccession but alas, fast forward 20 years and suddenly all those things are a-okay.

I'll never forget the screaming and yelling that went on at Queens Park over the debt and watched little Jimmy do it with my own eyes and now?.....well it's all quiet from the little dwarf....but his wife is yelling about it in Ontario and whining about an HST that Farty baited the Liberals into doing with billions in transfers.

So the man has changed his mind- that is more good than bad. Most of us grow and most of us adjust our thinking along the way. That is one of the problems with the Socialists- they are trotting out the same old line they were spewing 50 years ago.
 

Machjo

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Which "opposition" parties are you talking about?

The Reform Party (now called the Conservative party, not to be confused with the Progressive Conservative party of Joe Clark days) when they were not in power?

Are you saying that there should be some kind of online polling system where every single citizen gets to pitch in a budget of their own, whereupon a computer algorithm pulls them all together and averages them out?

The issue of "taxes" versus "tax cuts" is this:

If business is spending its profits back on the people from whom it makes its profits, then yes, low taxes can enable business to expand and make more jobs.

But if business is:

1) Investing the profits in China and India, then it just bleeds money out of the economy from which they made their profits and reduces the standard of living,

or

2) Investing the profits back in the economy from which they made their profits but are not hiring humans, rather, they invest in robot labor to do the work,

Then low taxes are of no benefit to citizens withing the domain.

Harpo's controllers do both. They take money out of Canada and move it oversees, and when they do have to invest it in Canada in order to do something they cannot move elsewhere, like dig up minerals, then as much as possible they replace the labor with robots.

The only businesses worthy of low taxes are those which hire local people, and buy materials locally, which today tends to be small business.

If the government really wanted to stimulate business within it's jurisdiction, it would cut taxes to those operations which hire and buy resources locally, and they'd tax those which export money out of the country.

If you can keep money recycling within an economy, then each dollar spent in fact creates 49 dollars worth of economic activity.

That was how Japan was able to build up over the years, with *no* natural resources. So many people think Japan was a big trading nation, but in fact only 18% of its economy was driven by trade. All the rest was internal. They were their own best customers, and they were recycling materials way, way ahead of anyone else.

The trick was, they made sure that every dollar brought in stayed there, but Harpo wants to cut taxes to the mega-corps owned by NY shareholders in order to send even more money out of the country than was already being sent, and the effect has been a lower standard of living and higher unemployment, even though we're living in once of the richest places on earth.

I just heard Flaherty say on CBC that "our policies will keep the economy growing".

Really... so every time you hear that the economy grew by 1-3%, did your standard of living go up by 1-3% ???

Or did they just increase by 1-3% the rate at which the multi-nationalists are gutting resources from the dominion?

Right. And if each country thought in the same self-interested way you do, each country would be stabbing each other country in the back, thus costing them all.

Don't forget, what goes around comes around. If we want to benefit from foreign economies, then we must open ourselves up too. It's a two way street. Also, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to encourage automation and economic efficiencies as much as possible, and simply retrain those affected for the new jobs to maintain the new tech.

Also, as for money going abroad, remember that that also deflates the value of the Canadian dollar, thus encouraging exports later on. So it does balance out in the end.
 

Tonington

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So the man has changed his mind- that is more good than bad. Most of us grow and most of us adjust our thinking along the way. That is one of the problems with the Socialists- they are trotting out the same old line they were spewing 50 years ago.
You're making wild assumptions here...that the words coming out of the politician's mouth were sincere. It's rhetoric.
 

Avro

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So the man has changed his mind- that is more good than bad. Most of us grow and most of us adjust our thinking along the way. That is one of the problems with the Socialists- they are trotting out the same old line they were spewing 50 years ago.

What?

Changed his mind?

So he now agrees with the policies of Bob Rae's NDP?

Yeah....that's the ticket.:lol:
 

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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Right. And if each country thought in the same self-interested way you do, each country would be stabbing each other country in the back, thus costing them all.

Don't forget, what goes around comes around. If we want to benefit from foreign economies, then we must open ourselves up too. It's a two way street. Also, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to encourage automation and economic efficiencies as much as possible, and simply retrain those affected for the new jobs to maintain the new tech.

Also, as for money going abroad, remember that that also deflates the value of the Canadian dollar, thus encouraging exports later on. So it does balance out in the end.

Excuse me but where did you study economics?

If you replace 3 people with 1 robot and it takes 1 part-time person to maintain that robot you have a net negative of 2.5 jobs. If you need those 3 people to maintain the robot there was no need to replace them to begin with. Economic growth is actually stimulated by the inefficiencies you want to get rid of. More people working for a good wage means more disposable income in the economy and increases demand for products and services requiring business to hire more to fulfill the demands. The companies make less profit per item but have an greatly increased volume to offset the added costs.

The money that is going abroad is good if it is used in trade but we are a net export country due to our natural resources so this has little impact. The dollars that are leaving our coutry as dividends to offshore investors are not taxed and not likely to return as are the jobs that go overseas to take advantage of cheap labor so have a net negative impact on the economy.

Deflating the value of the dollar may increase export sales but also increases the overall rate of inflation and decreases disposable income due to the higher cost of living it creates thus having a negative impact on the spending habits of the working class.

The whole idea of a stimulated economic growth depends on more money in the hands of people who spend it within our borders.
 

JLM

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What?

Changed his mind?

So he now agrees with the policies of Bob Rae's NDP?

Yeah....that's the ticket.:lol:

No one is right all the time, but the smart ones realize it and adjust their thinking. :smile:

Excuse me but where did you study economics?

If you replace 3 people with 1 robot and it takes 1 part-time person to maintain that robot you have a net negative of 2.5 jobs. If you need those 3 people to maintain the robot there was no need to replace them to begin with. Economic growth is actually stimulated by the inefficiencies you want to get rid of. More people working for a good wage means more disposable income in the economy and increases demand for products and services requiring business to hire more to fulfill the demands. The companies make less profit per item but have an greatly increased volume to offset the added costs.

The money that is going abroad is good if it is used in trade but we are a net export country due to our natural resources so this has little impact. The dollars that are leaving our coutry as dividends to offshore investors are not taxed and not likely to return as are the jobs that go overseas to take advantage of cheap labor so have a net negative impact on the economy.

Deflating the value of the dollar may increase export sales but also increases the overall rate of inflation and decreases disposable income due to the higher cost of living it creates thus having a negative impact on the spending habits of the working class.

The whole idea of a stimulated economic growth depends on more money in the hands of people who spend it within our borders.

Good up to a point, but the robots don't take sick days, don't go on strike, don't argue with the boss, don't steal from the company and don't bitch about their wages. :smile:
 

PoliticalNick

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Good up to a point, but the robots don't take sick days, don't go on strike, don't argue with the boss, don't steal from the company and don't bitch about their wages. :smile:

They also don't buy TV's, cars, stereos, groceries or any other product they produce....
 

Avro

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No one is right all the time, but the smart ones realize it and adjust their thinking. :smile:

So Bob Rae was right according to Jim....thanks for clarifying that.

Oh and the Libs not getting rid of the GST.....just changed their mind...no biggie.
 

Omicron

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Right. And if each country thought in the same self-interested way you do, each country would be stabbing each other country in the back, thus costing them all.

Don't forget, what goes around comes around. If we want to benefit from foreign economies, then we must open ourselves up too. It's a two way street. Also, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to encourage automation and economic efficiencies as much as possible, and simply retrain those affected for the new jobs to maintain the new tech.

Also, as for money going abroad, remember that that also deflates the value of the Canadian dollar, thus encouraging exports later on. So it does balance out in the end.

I should have mentioned something I keep taking for granted to be common knowledge but which keeps coming back to bite like your post here.

Yes indeed barriers to trade can backfire on economies of nations not self-sufficient in all the stuff an economy needs to be industrial and middle class.

In fact most nations need trade in order to be industrial and hopefully middle class.

In fact there are only two nations on the planet where, if the rest of the planet were blown away such that only their nation was left standing, they'd have *all* the resource elements to maintain a self-sufficient industrial economy.

One is Russia. It has one of those bubbling outcrops of rare-earth elements caused by an up-swelling from the earth's core combined with a temperate climate with lots of oil and coal and agricultural land yadda yadda in order to sustain an industrial economy even though the US et al had them surrounded and blocked for decades.

The only place they fell flat was when that gargoyle from hell, Stalin, forced collectivization of agriculture, the effect being that farmers started treating their skilled labour like a 9-5 job, when everyone knows that farming is a situation of working 24 hours a day in the spring to till and plant, work a normal day in the summer, work 24 hours a day at harvest time, and stay inside with lots of food and beer under warm covers with your darling in the winter. Stalin allowed each collectivized farmer to work one acre of land for themselves. That one acre per farmer worked out to 3% of the arable land of the Soviet Union, and from that 3%, they grew half their food, mostly of the vegetable variety, such that they had to import grain. Lenin never wanted to collectivize farms. His target was industrial ownership.

Anyway, the point is, Russia is one of the two countries self-sufficient in all resources required to run a standalone economy, not necessarily dependent on trade to be industrial and middle class. The fact that they were able to hold out for so long in spite of a botched agricultural policy and in spite of being the main fighters and blood-letters against Hitler demonstrated that.

The other is Canada.

In fact, Canada doesn't need to trade with anyone, and the only reason it ever did was because Canadians were lazy.

The people who want to do Canadian trade are Canadians sitting on a pile of ore too lazy to smelt it themselves, whence comes along people from an industrial economy like China, willing to do the work if they can just get the ore.

So... getting back to tax reform... if you really want to get Canadians working again and get the economy rolling again... *because* Canada can run self-sufficient, it's a place where you *can* get the economy cooking by some very excellently targeted tax cuts.

You cut them to the bone for people who are buying from local suppliers, and are hiring local workers.

For the multinationals doing rape and pillage... tax them. Consider it a cost of being allowed to walk away with Canadian resources.

What are they going to do other than maybe try to organize a coup? Go somewhere else and cause the mines, forest, coal beds, tar-sands and wheat lands to magically teleport to where-ever will let them operate with impunity?

Did you know that in Saskatchewan, 85% of all family owned farmers have had to find part-time jobs in the towns to balance their budgets, while around them the robotic Monsantozoid monocultralists conducted by gel-haired Armani-suited MBA brats from NY mow up mega-acres of cheep, low-nutrient food while probably secretly trading in vitamin-supplements on the side?

What would happen if it was the Canadian family farm owners to get the tax cuts, and the robotic Monsanto monoculturalists to pay taxes as they leave with their booty? Family farm owners create jobs. My best paying summer jobs came from hiring myself out to the local farmers. Their pay beat the pants off working for a Dairy Queen, and all I had to do was show up and work.

What wrecks my brain is that one would expect that to be a natural policy for Reformists, from whence is derived the likes of Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper. They're supposed to be supporting the hardworking, conservative grass-roots.

But they're not, and that's just wrong. If you're going to be a party of Reformist ideology, then *be* a party of Reformist ideology, so at least people know what they're voting for!
 
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