Has capitalism been tossed out the window in North America?

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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I'll be honest, I'm wouldn't really consider myself very capitalist, but more corporatist, or social-corporatist to be precise.

That said, there are similarities between capitalism and corporatism, and so naturally I'll sometimes end up siding with capitalists in debates.

From what I've been able to see over the last few years though is the demise of capitalism overall. We bail out corporations (and just to clarify, corporatism is not to be confused with unfair government support for commercial enterprises), we want to raise tariffs, subsidize ranchers' food crops, turn to military Keynesianism, etc.

Are we sliding into ever more government control of the economy?

Now again, I'm all for government regulation of the economy, but control is something else. And worse yet, it would seem the control we're talking about makes socialism look good. At least with socialism, there is a philosophy behind it focussed, at least in intention even if not in results, on helping the poor and most vulnerable members of society, promoting more equality and social justice, etc.

What we seem to be seeing rather is increased regulation not based on any kind of rational philosophy, but rather on ad-hoc decision-making based on knee-jerk reactions, always focussed narrowly on short-term or sectoral solutions without paying attention to the global impact of this or that policy. In the end, we end up with government departments contradicting one another or undermining another department's policies, each trying to solve a problem in their own little backyard not realizing it's causing problems for the other.

We see this in increased antagonism to freer trade, ignoring the fact that it is reciprocal after all. We see it in sudden increases in recessionary military spending.

And worse yet, the departments themselves seem unregulated and ad hoc, not really knowing what they're doing. I was reading just last week that last year along the Federal government spent about 600,000$ on alcohol, mostly by DND. Well, does that not conflict with maintaining healthy soldiers, reducing the burden on our health care system, not making alcohol even more accessible to those with possible drinking problems, etc.?

Seriously. How do we end up spending 600,000$ in one year on alcohol alone, and that's just at the federal government level?

Isn't it time for government to claw itself back, regulate when appropriate while ensuring collaboration between all departments so as to not undermine each others' efforts (such as DND and provincial health care programmes), promoting international agreements that could bring about long-term mutual benefits etc. rather than this ad hoc government we have now?
 

gopher

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Jun 26, 2005
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I cannot speak for Canada but it is quite evident that we have had much de-regulation in the USA since the days of Reagan. We have also had more corporate bailouts, reliefs, and subsidies with less regulation. So, on the one hand businesses are free to engage in their work without the government oversight thereby insuring that safety and health measures are not taken (this maximizes profits while increasing risks to the public) but it also means that the government is there to give them money on their demand. This is what I call corporate communism.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I cannot speak for Canada but it is quite evident that we have had much de-regulation in the USA since the days of Reagan. We have also had more corporate bailouts, reliefs, and subsidies with less regulation. So, on the one hand businesses are free to engage in their work without the government oversight thereby insuring that safety and health measures are not taken (this maximizes profits while increasing risks to the public) but it also means that the government is there to give them money on their demand. This is what I call corporate communism.

Nothing to do with corporatism as an economic philosophy. And it's certainly not communism. Heck, even communism is better. There is no philosophy to this other than reacting on a whim. So let's call this philosophy reactionism? Knee-jerkism? ad-hocism?

But yes, Canada's experienced something similar. Deregulation where we need regulation, and then regulation where we don't need it. Again, there really is no philosophy to describe it. I'm just surprised the left and the right aren't showing a united front against this seeming policy of just adopting the worst of both worlds.

You'd think the right would be shouting mad against government bailouts, and the left against bailouts to the rich of all people! Shouldn't that be a unifying force for the right and the left?
 

Trotz

Electoral Member
May 20, 2010
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I believe a good question is whether Roosevelt himself would have abandoned free trade in favour of protectionism, in context of today, and he probably would have.

Free trade back then, post-WW2, made sense in context that the North American market needed access to Britain and France's colonial Empires and the competition was picking up rubble on the streets of Germany and Japan and were also prostituting themselves (Grandpa might have stories of 'Frau Bait' if you get him drunk enough) just to get enough food to survive - makes our "slave wage" of $12 h/r look good.
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I think America and Canada (unlikely given our history of creeps from Nazi-Occultist Mackenzie King to Quebecer Trudeau) needs a "good leader" right about one, Obama had potential but he screwed up and in all honesty, even though I will be flamed for it, Ron Paul seems like the only person in the United States that isn't part of the Democrat-Republican establishment and has a real shot of becoming President, if the GOP allows it, and bring positive change.
 
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Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Unfettered Capitalism is a failure and will fail because of greed everytime.

Now Captialism with strict regulations and some forms of socialism mixed in seems to be the best way.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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WTF is a Social-Corporatist? Somebody who gives you a ride to the bank to clean you out with your car and then insists you pay him for gas and his time?
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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Das Kapital
Capital and labour 'negotiate' with the government (political system lol )being the mediator, since the government is so impartial and fair, who else should help/judge these things ? This is the coles notes version, someone else can elaborate. :lol:
 
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mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Unfettered Capitalism is a failure and will fail because of greed everytime.

Now Captialism with strict regulations and some forms of socialism mixed in seems to be the best way.

Aren't you the 'free market' guy? ;)
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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Das Kapital
Why not, iand in a show of support, I will quote one of our great former prime ministers when asked a question about Iraq 'I can't know every-ting about every-ting all duh time, mon deux tabournak, es ti' :lol:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
capital



Definitions (3)

1. Cash or goods used to generate income either by investing in a business or a different income property.

2. The net worth of a business; that is, the amount by which its assets exceed its liabilities.

3. The money, property, and other valuables which collectively represent the wealth of an individual or business.

#3 is the closest to my understanding in that it uses the word "represent". Capital is the accumulated works and wealth of labour? Capital is transferable debt?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Why not, iand in a show of support, I will quote one of our great former prime ministers when asked a question about Iraq 'I can't know every-ting about every-ting all duh time, mon deux tabournak, es ti' :lol:
Which tings? Doze tree tings dare?

capital



Definitions (3)

1. Cash or goods used to generate income either by investing in a business or a different income property.

2. The net worth of a business; that is, the amount by which its assets exceed its liabilities.

3. The money, property, and other valuables which collectively represent the wealth of an individual or business.

#3 is the closest to my understanding in that it uses the word "represent". Capital is the accumulated works and wealth of labour? Capital is transferable debt?
I like my answer better.
A hill in Rome where they breed miniature donkeys.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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WTF is a Social-Corporatist? Somebody who gives you a ride to the bank to clean you out with your car and then insists you pay him for gas and his time?

Social corporatism:

Social corporatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

a progressive form of corporatism:

Corporatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

among certain more moderate types of social democrats:

Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which supports some form of economic democracy:

Economic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

an idea supported by John Stuart Mill:

John Stuart Mill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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