Couple abort twin boys in quest to have a daughter

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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The story of an Australian couple who aborted twin boys because they want to use IVF to ensure they have a daughter is attracting a lot of attention, especially among pro-lifers, and understandably so since the case seems to foreshadow an ethics-free future of eugenics.

But the couple, who want a girl to replace the infant daughter they recently lost, is so far still barred by Australian law from pursuing their quest for a female baby. The state of Victoria, where the unnamed couple lives, does not allow sex selection using IVF unless it is done to avoid the risk of the baby's inheriting a genetic abnormality or disease.

An independent group, known as the Patient Review Panel, recently rejected the couple's bid, so they are taking their case to the next level, the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal, which is to hear their arguments in March.

"After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck. We want to be given the opportunity to have a girl," said the man. The couple already have three sons.

According to the Herald-Sun newspaper of Melbourne, which interviewed the couple, the woman, who is in her thirties, is "consumed by grief over the daughter who died soon after birth" and admits she has "become obsessed with having a daughter and it has become vital to her psychological health."

The husband told the newspaper that it was the couple's "right" to try this route. "It's ridiculous that sex selection is illegal, actually. For certain circumstances it should be legalized."

An Australian pioneer in IVF, Gab Kovacs, agreed. "I can't see how it could possibly harm anyone," he said.

"Laws should be made to protect people from things that are going to damage them. Why should we make this illegal? Who is this going to harm if this couple have their desire fulfilled?"
...

[full article here]
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Damn....just damn...You'd think they'd just be grateful if these twins seem healthy
at this point....and could quietly pray for some granddaughters eventually or
something...

I'm sure these twins, if allowed to come to term and have lives, will eventually
read these same newspaper clippings. Yikes...
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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I'm sure there are "right" reason's for this to happen, but this wasn't one of them.
Ron

Cases like this give the far right ammo to ban all abortions - But this freak of a Dr clearly has no morals outside of self interest -

I do not know of anyone that is pro abortion that belives in using sex selection as criteria for having or aborting a child.

I really think this woman that is so grieving for her daughter as to abort 2 healthy baies is in need of help - But not IVF - She should be banned from ever having the proceedure performed again.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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So, only the far right want abortions banned?


What? No...I meant "right" as in "Correct" if there can be such a thing on this
topic....like the mother being a 9yr old with the father being a direct relative
or something along those lines.

Right Wing? Far Right? No. That's not where I was going at all. Sorry for the
confusion here, but I think the whole political compass thing is bull**** anyway,
and I wasn't going there at all.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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What? No...I meant "right" as in "Correct" if there can be such a thing on this
topic....like the mother being a 9yr old with the father being a direct relative
or something along those lines.

Right Wing? Far Right? No. That's not where I was going at all. Sorry for the
confusion here, but I think the whole political compass thing is bull**** anyway,
and I wasn't going there at all.


Ron, I quoted goober..... not you.
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
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well,

if abortion is illegal in Australia then they can do whatever they want.

but if sex selection is illegal then I guess they can't.

but they aren't going to go to Jail or anything.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Nobody said anything about jail.... it's about the ethical issue of whether or not sex selection using IVF is okay, and whether or not refusing IVF to people who abort viable babies others would DIE to have, is an appropriate reaction.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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I'm sure there are "right" reason's for this to happen, but this wasn't one of them.

That's you're personal opinion.

Abortions happen for all sorts of reasons, some a few may think are justified and some that are not.... but they happen all around the world for whatever reason. Them having an abortion, even if it was the abortion of twins, for whatever reason, is nobody else's business but theirs.

As many know by now, my view is that until a fetus is born, their potiential of life is irrelevant.... their lives have not begun, thus there's nothing to discuss.

In regards to choosing the gender of a pregnancy, I don't see why it should be illegal at all, considering if people were allowed to choose, as harsh or as shallow as this may sound, those families/parents/children would probably be more happy, situations like the above would be solved, places like China would do well with a system like the above due to so many couples rejecting or prefering one gender over the other, thus a child would have less chance of being brought into a world where their parents regret/reject/hate them...... and more importantly, it would reduce the number of people similar to this couple seeking abortions, which one would think would please pro-lifers.

People don't like the idea of parents choosing the gender of their children, why?

Because that's not how nature works?? (It's supposed to be a natural surprise?)

Well allowing people to have children who aren't supposed to be able to have children isn't natural either, so I don't see how you can have one, but not the other. (Since it should be a natural surprise if you can have kids or not)

We're already screwing with nature on so many levels, why stop at gender selection?

I just don't get how you can meddle with nature using science for one thing, but using it for another related reason is going too far.

Seriously, is not allowing people to choose the gender of their future child benefiting anybody?

Based on the above where twins were just tossed in the trash, doesn't seem to me that it does.

But then I suppose some people would just rather attack abortion in general and try and change the laws so that the above can't happen again...... but that's not really solving the problem is it?

Sure it's easy to just sit there and say they should be damn happy with whatever kid(s) they have, and it's pretty easy to look in from outside of the situation and proclaim what you think they should do, or not do, or what they should suck up....... but until you are in the same situation as they are, you and I don't know jack squat what it's like, therefore, they and everybody else should have the leeway and freedom to work through their situation as they think is best..... for them, not you or I.

And if they were allowed to choose the gender of their child, this twin-abortion would probably have never happened in the first place.

I can't say aborting the twin boys was the right choice or the wrong..... I am not them, I don't already have three boys...... I don't even have children at this stage in my life, and I certainly didn't loose a daughter to know what they're going through....... but if the law allows the abortion to occur as it did, then nothing wrong was done and the case is closed.

In regards to gender selection and the law, I'd like to see the justifications for that law existing in the first place and if that law is important enough to risk further couples/women seeking similar choices when things don't go right.

Is it shallow and small minded to prefer one gender over another and trying to get that gender in a birth?

I don't know, but is it shallow to want to have a child when you can't?

Slightly different subjects, but they relate and there is a thin line between allowing one but not the other.
 
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Chiliagon

Prime Minister
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I do personally believe that they could amend the abortion laws.

IMO, Abortion should only be allowed if the pregnancy will threaten the mother's life, if she was raped and it's unwanted.

but abortion because they don't want boys and just girls should be 100% illegal, no exceptions.

too bad live with it!
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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I do personally believe that they could amend the abortion laws.

IMO, Abortion should only be allowed if the pregnancy will threaten the mother's life, if she was raped and it's unwanted.

but abortion because they don't want boys and just girls should be 100% illegal, no exceptions.

too bad live with it!

Why try and screw around with existing abortion laws and ignore the laws towards gender selection?

While I see some are addressing Karrie's ethical view on this subject, I think people are avoiding not only the bigger point of the article, but the much more simple and easier solution to the above problem.

If you allow people to use IVF to have a baby, then in those cases, they should also be allowed to choose the gender, thus reducing the chances of situaitons like the above from happening...... however in regards to natural pregnancies..... well.... people get abortions simply because they don't want a kid, or can't afford one, or aren't prepared for one, not responsible enough for one...... why is the reason of gender any worse then those reasons?

Face it, you're not going to get rid of legalized abortions, and restricting them is an uphill battle due to so many reasons..... which have been debated to death as it is, to no end mind you...... why not focus on the more practical solutions to the problem, rather then tossing personal ethics and morals at each other with no end and no solution?

Sure you could feel good about yourself for voicing your opinion and pat yourself on the back for it thinking you did something good, but in reality, trying to restrict abortions will simply not solve anything...... if someone wants an abortion bad enough, they're going to find a way to do it, legal or not...... so remove the reasons that exist for having an abortion and you reduce the amount of abortions being conducted.

Seems too damn simple if you ask me, and you please both sides.... the pro-chocie and pro-life.
 
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damngrumpy

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Mar 16, 2005
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For someone who is both left and right depending on the issue this is nothing short
of a disgrace. I am pro choice but this does not even fit into that category. The
thought of sacrificing children just because they are not your first choice is just too
low to comprehend. There is usually a serious reason for such an action and this
is not one of those reasons
 

Ariadne

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Aug 7, 2006
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This should never have been allowed to happen. The mother should have been sent to a psychiatrist when she first discussed her situation with the abortion doctor. Fetal gender selection is someting that has already been happening in some countries, like Lebanon, China and other places where a different value is placed on a male or female life. I'm in favour of abortion or pro-choice if the mother, for whatever reason, is unable to provide for a child. If the mother is able to provide for a child, but wants to pick and choose which child, then something is seriously wrong with both the mother, and with a society that allows it to happen.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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This is an odd case, the kind that catches media attention. Canadian law prohibits IVF clinics from using any protocol that would help patients select or improve the probability of a gender of an embryo. However, they cannot control who does what once they are in mid term pregnancy. I suspect it would be difficult to find a Canadian clinic that is willing to help their additional efforts.

From the Assisted Human Reproduction Act 2004 - Canada

Assisted Human Reproduction Act

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES

Prohibited procedures

5. (1) No person shall knowingly
(a) create a human clone by using any technique, or transplant a human clone into a human being or into any non-human life form or artificial device;
(b) create an in vitro embryo for any purpose other than creating a human being or improving or providing instruction in assisted reproduction procedures;
(c) for the purpose of creating a human being, create an embryo from a cell or part of a cell taken from an embryo or foetus or transplant an embryo so created into a human being;
(d) maintain an embryo outside the body of a female person after the fourteenth day of its development following fertilization or creation, excluding any time during which its development has been suspended;
(e) for the purpose of creating a human being, perform any procedure or provide, prescribe or administer any thing that would ensure or increase the probability that an embryo will be of a particular sex, or that would identify the sex of an in vitro embryo, except to prevent, diagnose or treat a sex-linked disorder or disease;
(f) alter the genome of a cell of a human being or in vitro embryo such that the alteration is capable of being transmitted to descendants;
(g) transplant a sperm, ovum, embryo or foetus of a non-human life form into a human being;
(h) for the purpose of creating a human being, make use of any human reproductive material or an in vitro embryo that is or was transplanted into a non-human life form;
(i) create a chimera, or transplant a chimera into either a human being or a non-human life form; or
(j) create a hybrid for the purpose of reproduction, or transplant a hybrid into either a human being or a non-human life form.
Offers

(2) No person shall offer to do, or advertise the doing of, anything prohibited by this section.
Payment for prohibited act

(3) No person shall pay or offer to pay consideration to any person for doing anything prohibited by this section.
Payment for surrogacy

6. (1) No person shall pay consideration to a female person to be a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise that it will be paid.
Acting as intermediary

(2) No person shall accept consideration for arranging for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to make such an arrangement for consideration or advertise the arranging of such services.
Payment to intermediaries

(3) No person shall pay consideration to another person to arrange for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise the payment of it.
Surrogate mother — minimum age

(4) No person shall counsel or induce a female person to become a surrogate mother, or perform any medical procedure to assist a female person to become a surrogate mother, knowing or having reason to believe that the female person is under 21 years of age.
Validity of agreement

(5) This section does not affect the validity under provincial law of any agreement under which a person agrees to be a surrogate mother.
Purchase of gametes

7. (1) No person shall purchase, offer to purchase or advertise for the purchase of sperm or ova from a donor or a person acting on behalf of a donor.
Purchase or sale of embryos

(2) No person shall
(a) purchase, offer to purchase or advertise for the purchase of an in vitro embryo; or
(b) sell, offer for sale or advertise for sale an in vitro embryo.
Purchase of other reproductive material

(3) No person shall purchase, offer to purchase or advertise for the purchase of a human cell or gene from a donor or a person acting on behalf of a donor, with the intention of using the gene or cell to create a human being or of making it available for that purpose.
Exchanges included

(4) In this section, “purchase” or “sell” includes to acquire or dispose of in exchange for property or services.
Use of reproductive material without consent

8. (1) No person shall make use of human reproductive material for the purpose of creating an embryo unless the donor of the material has given written consent, in accordance with the regulations, to its use for that purpose.
Posthumous use without consent

(2) No person shall remove human reproductive material from a donor's body after the donor's death for the purpose of creating an embryo unless the donor of the material has given written consent, in accordance with the regulations, to its removal for that purpose.
Use of in vitro embryo without consent

(3) No person shall make use of an in vitro embryo for any purpose unless the donor has given written consent, in accordance with the regulations, to its use for that purpose.
Gametes obtained from minor

9. No person shall obtain any sperm or ovum from a donor under 18 years of age, or use any sperm or ovum so obtained, except for the purpose of preserving the sperm or ovum or for the purpose of creating a human being that the person reasonably believes will be raised by the donor.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Praxius. While I understand what you mean from a very baseline logical argument, the other side, the side that decides if people are worthy of kids or not, disagrees wholeheartedly. Mainly because anyone who is willing to go to such lengths to design their family is suspect in their ability to love their child no matter what life may bring, such as brain damage at birth, crippling infections as an infant, disfiguring car accidents, etc. Once you've placed such a huge qualifier on your willingness to raise a child, essentially declaring that half the possible babies (and even two ACTUAL fetuses) are not good enough for your purposes, then your willingness to raise future childrem well, raise them lovingly, despite flaws that may arise, is highly in question.