Good manner and morale in the Quran

Omicron

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This is why Islam is so dangerous -spiritually at least. As far as dangerous to mankind in general. Well, We've seen the beheadings and bombings and radicalism.
You know, there as many denomination of Islam as there are denominations of Christianity, and they can be as radically different in their interpretation of the Quran as various Cristian denominations can be in their interpretation of the Bible.

You can't lump them all together any more than you can lump all Christian denominations together.
 

eanassir

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I heard that non of it was written down until the Prophet had died... that it was after his death that they realized they'd better record it, and so they organized some kind of committee that would go around and ask everyone who'd heard the Prophet speak to tell them everything he said, and that their guideline was that every recollection had to be corroborated by at least one other person who'd heard him say the same thing.

I think it's kind of interesting that there's more in the Quran about the life and times of Mary, mother of Jesus, than there is in the Bible.

We should not believe everything we hear.
There is difference between the Quran the word of God revealed to Prophet Mohammed - salam be to him - on one hand and on the other hand between the words of the prophet himself.
What you speak is the work of Muslims to collect the hadiths which are the words of the prophet himself: like his instructions, advises and explanations of some ayat of the Quran.
That is because Prophet Mohammed prevented them from writing his own words: the hadiths; only they should write down the Quran: the word of God lest it should mix with his own words.
The prophet himself was illiterate: he did not know the reading and writing.
But many of his companions knew the reading and writing.

This is in the Quran 29: 48

وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ ..الخ

The explanation:
(You [Mohammed] were not [able] to read any book before [the Quran], nor to write it with your right hand; for then those who follow falsehood would have doubted.

But it is evident revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny Our revelations save wrong-doers.)


Now as in the past, a large number of Muslims know the Quran by heart and it is inserted in their hearts.

So when the revelations were received by the prophet, he ordered his companions to write these ayat in their sites in various soorahs until the soorahs or chapters were complete.

This is a miracle by itself: because none could know other than God Himself how to arrange the portions of the Quran until it became complete in its arrangement: so that marvelous soorahs issued: like the Jigsaw game. This made the Aarb surprised from such marvelous arrangement of the soorahs which were revealed sporadically not necessarily of the same soorah successively, but might be intervened by portions of other soorahs.

It is mentioned in the Quran 2: 1-2 about writing down of the Quran revelations during the life of Prophet Mohammed:

الم .ذَلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ هُدًى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ .

The explanation:
(Alif, Lam, Miem. i.e. (Recite To them, O Mohammed!)
So in Arabic it is أ ل م while in English it may be explained as RTM

That Scripture [the Quran revelations before revealing these ayat and then were written down by the Prophet's companions], whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who ward off [God's punishment.])


Therefore, the "recital" is the Quran derived from the reciting of Gabriel to the Prophet, while the scripture or the "writing" [or scripture] is related to writing it down until it became a book.

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TenPenny

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This is why Islam is so dangerous -spiritually at least. As far as dangerous to mankind in general. Well, We've seen the beheadings and bombings and radicalism.

Ummm...have you ever heard of Northern Ireland?
If you have, you would say the exact same thing about Christianity.

Terrorism in the name of religion isn't exclusive to Muslims, and any Christian who thinks this needs to learn a little modern history. Maybe the old bullet to the kneecaps, a favorite of the IRA.
 

eanassir

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Ummm...have you ever heard of Northern Ireland?
If you have, you would say the exact same thing about Christianity.

Terrorism in the name of religion isn't exclusive to Muslims, and any Christian who thinks this needs to learn a little modern history. Maybe the old bullet to the kneecaps, a favorite of the IRA.

True, TenPenny.
I even do not defend the behavior of every Muslim; I know that some Muslims may be worse than devils as are some Jews and Christians.

But I defend the Quran.

www.quran-ayat.com
 

L Gilbert

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Ummm...have you ever heard of Northern Ireland?
If you have, you would say the exact same thing about Christianity.

Terrorism in the name of religion isn't exclusive to Muslims, and any Christian who thinks this needs to learn a little modern history. Maybe the old bullet to the kneecaps, a favorite of the IRA.
Perhaps the original issue between Ireland and England had a religious aspect to it, but it was not the only aspect nor were the IRA even in existence back then. The IRA's biggest beef was British involvement in anything Irish, northern or otherwise.

A better example would have been the Inquisitions or even more recently the Christian proselytising influence in North and South America, Africa, etc. that sparked an awful lot of conflicts.

But, you're right, more violence in the world has been committed in the name of a religion (and politics) than any other reasons (by a huge margin).

But I defend the Quran.
I defend Alice in Wonderland.
Wifey likes Dr. Seuss. I prefer Sherlock Holmes or something in common with but not the same as religion; science fiction.
 

CUBert

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You know, there as many denomination of Islam as there are denominations of Christianity, and they can be as radically different in their interpretation of the Quran as various Cristian denominations can be in their interpretation of the Bible.

You can't lump them all together any more than you can lump all Christian denominations together.

Is this true? I know there's seemingly infinity amount of christian denominations , but for muslims it seems to simply be, moderate or fanatical.
 

Omicron

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We should not believe everything we hear.
Indeed, but be careful how you say that in a forum like this, or someone will jump on that as justification for not believing anything you say, and which leads to the dilemma of whether anyone should believe you when you say not to believe everything because when you say to not believe you, it implies we're not supposed to believe that we shouldn't believe you... ;-)
There is difference between the Quran the word of God revealed to Prophet Mohammed - salam be to him - on one hand and on the other hand between the words of the prophet himself.

What you speak is the work of Muslims to collect the hadiths which are the words of the prophet himself: like his instructions, advises and explanations of some ayat of the Quran.

That is because Prophet Mohammed prevented them from writing his own words: the hadiths; only they should write down the Quran: the word of God lest it should mix with his own words.

The prophet himself was illiterate: he did not know the reading and writing.

So when the revelations were received by the prophet, he ordered his companions to write these ayat in their sites in various soorahs until the soorahs or chapters were complete.

This is a miracle by itself: because none could know other than God Himself how to arrange the portions of the Quran until it became complete in its arrangement: so that marvelous soorahs issued: like the Jigsaw game. This made the Aarb surprised from such marvelous arrangement of the soorahs which were revealed sporadically not necessarily of the same soorah successively, but might be intervened by portions of other soorahs.

[...]

Therefore, the "recital" is the Quran derived from the reciting of Gabriel to the Prophet, while the scripture or the "writing" [or scripture] is related to writing it down until it became a book.
Okay, so... Mohammed would get a revelation, called an avat, which he would recite to scribes, who would write it down, and those writings are called soorah, and the soorah got organized together into the Quran, right?

How did that process of organizing soorah into the Quran happen? By committee? It seems like it was organized by committee, because one of the things that drives neophytes nuts when they try to read it for the first time is that none of it is organized chronologically... the chapters all seem to be organized by size, which means a person must have the patience to read the whole thing cover-to-cover before they can even begin to study it, whereupon a lot of the art of reading the Quran consists of knowing how to jump from one chapter to another in order to get a cohesive message and a contiguous time-line...

Has anybody ever produced a "Reader's Companion" version of the Quran, where it's all the same content, but organized chronologically?

Anyway, you're saying that Mohammed would get revelations, called avats, which he relayed to scribes who would write them down into little snippets called soorahs. Would he get those revelations when he was alone, which he would remember and then recite back to scribes, or would he go into some kind of trance and function as a mouthpiece of Allah while the scribes scribbled it down?

Then people would ask him what those soorahs meant, whereupon he'd offer his own interpretation, which got written down after his death as hadiths. Plus hadiths would include ordinary day-to-day advice and instruction on things like how to govern the community, right?

I've heard that when Mohammed was revelating the Words of Allah that were to be written down as soorah to be stitched together as the Quran, that it would come out as the most mind-numbingly beautiful poetry... and that that's what would grab everybody's attention in the beginning... they'd follow Mohammed just so they could hear more of it, because it was so beautiful to listen to. I'm presuming that the hadiths would read more like technical manuals, right?

By the way, in case you didn't know, speaking in poetic language is what Jesus would do when he was on a roll. Some scholars figure that maybe as little as 1% of what Jesus said ever got written down, but what little did make it to paper is all beautiful metered rhyme if you read it in the original Aramaic.

The most well known of those is the Sermon on the Mount, which is modern Christianity's greatest record of what Jesus said. If you read the Sermon on the Mount in Aramaic, it's all beautiful metered rhyming poetry.

Another record of what Jesus said is the Gospel of Thomas, which probably should have been included in the New Testament but which got excluded for political reasons during the times when Constantine was homogenizing Christianity in order to facilitate order within his empire.

The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources

Unlike the four Gospels of the New Testament, which contain a lot of the historical day to day events of Jesus's life, the Gospel of Thomas is only Jesus's sayings, and if you read them in the original Aramaic, it comes out as poetic language.

Anyway... Ever have problems with people taking the hadiths too seriously, as if they're equivalent to the Quran?
 
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eanassir

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Okay, so... Mohammed would get a revelation, called an avat, which he would recite to scribes, who would write it down, and those writings are called soorah, and the soorah got organized together into the Quran, right?

The revelations are called ayat: the singular is aya. The Quran consists of 114 soorahs or chapters; each chapter (soorah) consists of many ayat or revelations like the verses of the Bible.

How did that process of organizing soorah into the Quran happen? By committee? It seems like it was organized by committee, because one of the things that drives neophytes nuts when they try to read it for the first time is that none of it is organized chronologically... the chapters all seem to be organized by size, which means a person must have the patience to read the whole thing cover-to-cover before they can even begin to study it, whereupon a lot of the art of reading the Quran consists of knowing how to jump from one chapter to another in order to get a cohesive message and a contiguous time-line...

Sometimes one aya and other times many ayat were revealed at one time; the Prophet said it to people who wrote them down on parchment, wood pieces etc.
He told them to put such ayat following some other ayat of a certain soorah, then by time the construction of that soorah was then completed.

The ayat of revelation came sporadically according to need and situation and sometimes as answer of the question of some people.

E.g. Some ayat of soorah X came then some ayat of soorah Y then may return to revealing some other ayat of the soorah X etc.

Then the revealing of all the soorahs or chapters of the Quran was completed during Mohammed's life; but that was without order. Many of beleivers knew the whole Quran by heart like you know a poem by heart; because the Quran is concize book not like the Torah extensive books.

Then after his death, his companions arranged the soorah according to their length: the long came first then the shorter then the shorter ... this is generally speaking.

So there might have been some sort of committee who arranged the available 114 soorahs or chapters into the now available arrangement: the long comes first followed by the shorter then the shorter until the most short soorahs come in the end of the book of the Quran.

Has anybody ever produced a "Reader's Companion" version of the Quran, where it's all the same content, but organized chronologically?

It is narrated that Imam Ali - salam be to him - made a sort of chronological arrangement of the soorahs of the Quran; but actually nothing of this sort is available.

www.quran-ayat.com
 

Omicron

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Is this true? I know there's seemingly infinity amount of christian denominations , but for muslims it seems to simply be, moderate or fanatical.
Oh yeah... very much so. In fact, in some respects, even more so than is the diversity of Christian denominations.

You see, they never developed an organized centralized authority, like Roman Catholics did, nor did they even have an official distinction between who are believers, and who are Bishops - authorized to make definitive interpretations of scripture for members of their church - like the Orthodox Catholics.

Each person is supposed to read the Quran and understand it for themselves, but some would come up with more inspiring interpretations than others, and they'd talk about their interpretations, and others would be impressed, and next thing you know, the guy's being followed around and copied, and before you know it, his followers are building a mosque in his name, and reading his interpretations of the Quran almost as if they're more definitive than the original writings.

It's like they'd fast-forwarded to the Reformation, started by Martin Luther, who rebelled against Roman Catholicism because of its obviously incestuous, pork-barreling politicization.

Luther said that everyone should read the Bible and make sense of it for themselves, and that created an explosion of denominations... people like Calvin or Jerry Falwell would start preaching their interpretation of the Bible, others who were not so adept at reading the Bible for themselves would listen and feel like he was speaking to them, and next thing you know there's a new denomination.

Likewise, this would happen all the time among Muslims, and it's still happening to this day. That's where you get crank-cases like Osama Bin Laden and nut-bar organizations like Al-Qaeda.

Osama is a very tall, hawkish, bad-tempered, bitter, hateful black-sheep outcast of the Bin Laden clan who was generally mediocre at everything he did, but his childhood as a Bin Laden (a very rich, influencial family into construction, often described as the Rockefellers of mid-east construction; it was growing up within a construction family that Osama learned that flying jets into the Twin Towers would collapse them, unlike flying them into the Empire State building, where the planes would have simply wrapped around the building in a ball of fire) gave him a taste for greatness, but his own family thought he was weird and shunned him, so he went east, plugged into a nascent group called Al-Qaeda, gave them lots of money if he could become a big-shot, and they proceeded to recruit new members from among other disenfranchised losers who's options were to become thieves and have their hands cut off by Saudi authorities, or join a gang... all justified by cherry-picking bits and pieces out of the Quran and interpreting it to the recruits as a uniquely inspiring interpretation of what the Quran is all about.

In other words... Al-Qaeda if a frikkin' denomination, and OBL is their televangelist!

What drives Christians nuts about Muslims is that so many Muslims seem blase about the fact that OBL and Al-Quieda exist, and yeah, that is annoying until you understand that they never had a concept of there being an official leadership as part of the religion, even though as humans they run around creating leadership structures all the time, such that the only thing even the most liberal and enlightened Muslims can do is shrug and say that's how OBL has interpreted the Quran, regardless of how much they might personally think he's a loon.

Now, personally, I think this issue of personal interpretation of scripture versus authoritative interpretations is something that Muslims could learn a lesson or two from Christian history, and I'm not talking about the conflicts and denominational splits created by Martin Luther's notion of personal interpretation of the Bible versus the Roman Catholics' notion of authorities delivering interpretations... I'm talking about what started happening right from the day after Jesus's tomb was found empty.

You see, Jesus was kind of enigmatic in the way He'd deliver His revelations. When Mohammed delivered a revelation, people would ask him what it meant, whereupon Mohammed would add his personal interpretation, which got recorded separate from the Quran in the hadish, but when disciples asked Jesus what his revelation meant, Jesus would say, "Let him who has ears hear".

That left it wide open for the disciples themselves to re-interpret what He meant, such that immediately upon His death (and resurrection) there was an instant split among the disciples.

Some like James took it one way, and attempted to splice Christianity into mainstream Judaism ("I am not to replace the teachings, but to complete them").

Others like Philip believed that Jesus had embedded secret knowledge in His sayings that only an elite were destined to comprehend ("let he who has ears hear"). He left Judea and started a sect that became classified as one of what they call the Gnostic interpretation of Christianity. His Gospel went like this: The Gospel of Philip -- The Nag Hammadi Library

Especially galling was the way Jesus would sometimes pick out subsets from among the disciples, take them aside, and tell them things that were not told to the other disciples, such that after His tomb was found empty, different disciples would claim to have authority over subjects that others did not have, justified by saying that Jesus had told them their information in secret, which means there was no way for anyone to prove whether or not they were making it up, but they'd *all* had the experience of being taken aside by Jesus for private teachings, so they *all* knew it was possible, but who could prove what?

It caused the disciples to scatter in different directions, each spreading their interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. If God's plan was to implement a strategy to get the disciples to scatter in different directions in order to spread the message, it worked. They couldn't *stand* each other!

So, early Christendom was this boiling stew of countless interpretations of the meanings of the sayings of Jesus. The only thing they could agree on was that He had a unique, never before seen relationship to God that was familial in nature - above and beyond that of an ordinary prophet - and that He'd somehow changed the rules of the game so that people could continue to live after bodily death (which was not clear to ancient Jews, some of whom, like the Sadducees, believed that upon death a person's existence ceased)...

... and the only ceremony they could agree on was the mass, in memory of the last supper (which is how we know the last supper almost certainly happened pretty much as described... when Portuguese first landed in India they discovered the Thomas branch of Christianity, brought to them by the disciple Thomas and with about 13 million members today; they'd never heard of European Christians - in fact, a lot of them figured they were the only Christians in the world - and they practiced exactly the same mass as that performed by the Roman and Orthodox Catholics in Europe, and by the Coptic Christians in Ethiopia).

Then along came Saul of Tarsus, aka Saint Paul, who tended towards the Peter, John and James interpretations. St. Paul was fundamental in giving Christianity some structure and focus. He could see all the different denominations evolving into extreme sects, and part of his solution was to advocate that each church have as its authority a Bishop. (And by church I don't mean something that could sprawl... it was one building = one church = one Bishop.)

That didn't make for perfect unity, because until the Council of Nicaea each church had a different collection of books, as a function of the preferences of that church's Bishop. Some would retain the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and Thomas, while others would go by the Gospels of John, Philip, and The Egyptians, etc...

But they'd achieved some conformity in at least accepting that each church would have a final-word authority called the Bishop, and if you didn't like that Bishop's interpretations, you could leave and go join another church.

It's definitely not a perfect system, given how it evolved into the corruption of dark-age Roman Catholicism, but it held the line against the interpretative chaos that was happening at the time.

If Muslims had something like that, then it would be easier for them to stand up as groups to tell Osama Bin Laden to shut up, but as it stands, they can only tell him he's a loon on a one-by-one basis.

And by the way, the issue of denominalization gets even more extreme when dealing with Shi'ite.

They believe in leaders called Imans, who are said to have such remarkably sinless spirits that their statements are to be held almost on par with those of Mohammed himself, and they are venerated to a degree beyond even how Christians will venerate saints like Thomas Aquinas and Francis of Assisi, plus their spiritual lineage have clout on the scale of whoever is the leader of the Jesuits.

It's one of the *big* bones of contention between Shi'ite and Sunni.

Anyway... yeah... Muslims have denominations in plethora.
 
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eanassir

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Anyway, you're saying that Mohammed would get revelations, called avats, which he relayed to scribes who would write them down into little snippets called soorahs. Would he get those revelations when he was alone, which he would remember and then recite back to scribes, or would he go into some kind of trance and function as a mouthpiece of Allah while the scribes scribbled it down?

Sometimes he received the revelation when he was alone, and other times when he was among people.

He heard the angel Gabriel inspiring him and revealing the ayat into his ear; he heard the revelations then recited that to people; there wasn't any such trance; this is said by some Muslims which is not correct.

E.g. a man came to him and said: Messenger of God, I gave my daughter in marriage to that certain man: her husband who now persecutes and beats her.
The messenger said to him: Go and let her beat him, as does he beat her.

The father of the wife went out to tell his daughter; and now the prophet called him: Come back: a revelation has come to me just now: [which is in the Quran 4: 34]

الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا


The explanation:
(Men are the 'guides' of women, for that God has preferred some of them [the men] to the others [: the women], and for that they expend of their wealth.

Righteous women are therefore obedient [to their husbands], guarding the secret for God's guarding [keeping the honor of their husbands in their absence].
As for those [women] from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, desert them in bed and beat them;

but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them;

surely, God is All-High, All-Great.)


Then people would ask him what those soorahs meant, whereupon he'd offer his own interpretation, which got written down after his death as hadiths. Plus hadiths would include ordinary day-to-day advice and instruction on things like how to govern the community, right?

Right.
The hadiths are like the Talmud, and the Quran is like the Torah or the Law of Moses.

I've heard that when Mohammed was revelating the Words of Allah that were to be written down as soorah to be stitched together as the Quran, that it would come out as the most mind-numbingly beautiful poetry... and that that's what would grab everybody's attention in the beginning... they'd follow Mohammed just so they could hear more of it, because it was so beautiful to listen to. I'm presuming that the hadiths would read more like technical manuals, right?

The Quran is a miracle from language eloquence point of view. The Arab were eloquent and loved the eloquence of language, and the Quran came as the miracle and challenged them to do like it and produce even one soorah like the soorahs of the Quran, or to solve the puzzles included in it – but they were completely unable to do so (inspite of being eloquent in language and clever in solving the puzzles.)

By the way, in case you didn't know, speaking in poetic language is what Jesus would do when he was on a roll. Some scholars figure that maybe as little as 1% of what Jesus said ever got written down, but what little did make it to paper is all beautiful metered rhyme if you read it in the original Aramaic.


The most well known of those is the Sermon on the Mount, which is modern Christianity's greatest record of what Jesus said. If you read the Sermon on the Mount in Aramaic, it's all beautiful metered rhyming poetry.



The original Torah and the Gospel were certainly eloquent in their original languages.


Anyway... Ever have problems with people taking the hadiths too seriously, as if they're equivalent to the Quran?

The Quran is entirely authentic, while a large number of hadiths are fabricated and are false, while certainly other hadiths are authentic and true.
So the hadith that confirms the Quran and is confirmed by the Quran, then it is a true hadith, while the one that contradicts the Quran, then it is fabricated and should be refused and discarded.

And of course some rigid Muslims prefer the hadith to the Quran – this practically so, in spite of that they say: No we consider the Quran as the reference and more authentic.

 

Omicron

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Lets start with something simple like bringing you god over for tea to prove you even have one. The offer is open to all theocrats. First one to bring a god to my house wins. Don't worry about where I live as if you have a real god she will know.
I have friends on Cortez who will invite you over to share some "tea" in order to introduce you to their God.

And by the way, just to keep this post on-thread... The world Assassin is derived from a bunch of middle-eastern ninja-style hit-men who'd hire themselves out to deal with trouble-makers and who would smoke copious amounts of hashish in their off-time in order to get glimpses of Paradise.

Muslims are not supposed to drink, but nobody said they couldn't get stoned out of their minds.

E.g. a man came to him and said: Messenger of God, I gave my daughter in marriage to that certain man: her husband who now persecutes and beats her.
The messenger said to him: Go and let her beat him, as does he beat her.

The father of the wife went out to tell his daughter; and now the prophet called him: Come back: a revelation has come to me just now: Men are the 'guides' of women, for that God has preferred some of them [the men] to the others [: the women], and for that they expend of their wealth.

Righteous women are therefore obedient [to their husbands], guarding the secret for God's guarding [keeping the honor of their husbands in their absence].
As for those [women] from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, desert them in bed and beat them;

but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them;

surely, God is All-High, All-Great.

Uhh... doesn't that mean that the Messenger (Gabriel) contradicted himself?

First he says the woman should hit back, and then he says it's okay to beat the woman for not being subservient.

What does that mean? That it's okay for her to hit back if she's been subservient but he still hits her?

In any case, that's where you're going to be facing an irreconcilable bone of contention if you want to live here. In this country, you're not allowed to clobber women except under the most extreme circumstances, like you catch her pinning one of her kids to the ground while holding a knife over it...

And that's not just a government law... it's the social norm. If word gets around that some guy is beating up women, then the other guys are going to quietly form a posse to catch him and pound him to a pulp until he learns to not do it. The law against beating women is not a government invention... it's a formalization of the social-code of the people, and you can't just wave it off if you're going to live here.

I bet if you dig deep enough into the Quran you'll find passages explaining how it's more proper to not beat women if social circumstances dictate otherwise, if not passages saying that if you are well matched with the woman, then the thought of hitting her will never occur to you.


The Quran is entirely authentic, while a large number of hadiths are fabricated and are false, while certainly other hadiths are authentic and true.

So the hadith that confirms the Quran and is confirmed by the Quran, then it is a true hadith, while the one that contradicts the Quran, then it is fabricated and should be refused and discarded.

And of course some rigid Muslims prefer the hadith to the Quran – this practically so, in spite of that they say: No we consider the Quran as the reference and more authentic.

Hmm... I can already imagine the disputes and debates whirling around the hadith. Yeesh.

My hunch is that more intra-Islamic disputes happen over interpretations of hadith than the Quran itself.

Just out of curiosity, is the subject of Hijab (woman's head-dress) a Quran issue, or a hadith issue?

I've done a bit of searching about this, and the only references I can find in the Quran are:

1) Quran 24:31, which says women should not expose their *breasts* in public, and,

2) Quran 33:58-59, which says that Muslim women should cover themselves with anonymous outer garments so they won't be harassed by non-Muslims when out in public.

Evidently this was written at a time when Islam was still young and followers were in a minority, such that they could get harassed by non-Muslims when in the marketplace.

I'm guessing the expectation was that guys could fend for themselves if identified as Muslim, but that women of course could not, so women were basically supposed to *disguise* themselves in public so they couldn't be identified as Muslim, so they wouldn't be picked on.

If that's the case, then man-oh-man, you couldn't be any *less* anonymous than you are today, forcing women to walk around in public with heads swathed in hijab.

Ummm...have you ever heard of Northern Ireland?
If you have, you would say the exact same thing about Christianity.

Terrorism in the name of religion isn't exclusive to Muslims, and any Christian who thinks this needs to learn a little modern history. Maybe the old bullet to the kneecaps, a favorite of the IRA.
Yeah... ninety-nine times out of a hundred, when you analyze stuff like that, you find that the underlying cause is social and economic injustice, and that they're just wrapping their gripes in religion in order to justify the frustration they're feeling.

That's what's behind virtually *all* of the so-called radical-Islamic fundamentalism... social and economic injustice.

How many well-fed, socially high-up Muslims do you find among the radical fundamentalists?

Okay... there's Osama Bin Laden... born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but he faced rejection from his family and social-strata for being mediocre and something of a geek... hmm...

But typically... how often are the radical-fundamentalists *not* from backgrounds frustrated by poverty and lack of opportunity?
 

eanassir

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Uhh... doesn't that mean that the Messenger (Gabriel) contradicted himself?

First he says the woman should hit back, and then he says it's okay to beat the woman for not being subservient.

What does that mean? That it's okay for her to hit back if she's been subservient but he still hits her?

It is not like what you say: if you carefully read my reply once again, you will know that the messenger was Mohammed the messenger of God or the apostle of God.

So at the start, he reacted according to his justice, that she should retaliate her husband; but sooner the revelation came by Gabriel conveying the word from God All Knowing and Most Wise that the matter should not be dealt with in this way:

no, man has a grade over woman; the wife should obey her husband as should he respect and honor her.

And the aya explained when he has the right to beat her: when she does not obey him (in bed in particular); she feels lofty over him; he has the right by the marriage bond and according to his dower that he gave; she does not give him his right: what shall he do? Will he go to the prostitute and commit adultery? So why then did he get married?

So he has to advise and admonish her at the start, then he isolate himself and his bed from her bed, and if that does not profit, he beats her but not to break bone or wound or contuse her; so if she obey him, then he has not to do any more hurt in anyway.

If the matter does not settle in this way, he then has the right to divorce her.

We have nothing to do with your country and social customs; the Muslim: the man has to honor his wife the mother of his children and to protect her and to expend out of his money on her and on his family about whom he is responsible. And the man has to live with his wife in good way and with good manner; the best of people is the best concerning his wife and family.

NB: some women are cold sexually and will not react unless by some pinching or beating; and in many instances the woman fell in love with the man who slapped her on the face: she cried and loved him: I saw this in many Western movies.

I bet if you dig deep enough into the Quran you'll find passages explaining how it's more proper to not beat women if social circumstances dictate otherwise, if not passages saying that if you are well matched with the woman, then the thought of hitting her will never occur to you.

The woman should not be beaten unless in the way just explained: and this should not be to bruise the skin or wound her or break any bone.

And the Prophet said: None honors the woman but only the noble man; and none humiliates her but only the rascal.

Just out of curiosity, is the subject of Hijab (woman's head-dress) a Quran issue, or a hadith issue?

I've done a bit of searching about this, and the only references I can find in the Quran are:

1) Quran 24:31, which says women should not expose their *breasts* in public, and,

2) Quran 33:58-59, which says that Muslim women should cover themselves with anonymous outer garments so they won't be harassed by non-Muslims when out in public.

Evidently this was written at a time when Islam was still young and followers were in a minority, such that they could get harassed by non-Muslims when in the marketplace.

I'm guessing the expectation was that guys could fend for themselves if identified as Muslim, but that women of course could not, so women were basically supposed to *disguise* themselves in public so they couldn't be identified as Muslim, so they wouldn't be picked on.

If that's the case, then man-oh-man, you couldn't be any *less* anonymous than you are today, forcing women to walk around in public with heads swathed in hijab.

The "hijab" is both in the Quran and in the hadith.
And it is commanded on the Children of Israel before as is it commanded in the Quran for Muslims.
I heard that the minister of internal affairs of Italy said: (We cannot forbid the "hijab" because Virgin Mary the mother of the Christ wore the hijab.)

And you should know that the commands of God will not change according to time intervals and periods: the word of God is unchangable.

Moreover, there were many hypocrites (false Muslims: showing only their Islam while in fact they are disbelievers and disobedient) in the Medina city where the Prophet resided, and, by God's will, I shall give the interpretation of these ayat of the Glorious Quran as soon as possible according to the interpretation of the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.

www.quran-ayat.com
 

TenPenny

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Perhaps the original issue between Ireland and England had a religious aspect to it, but it was not the only aspect nor were the IRA even in existence back then. The IRA's biggest beef was British involvement in anything Irish, northern or otherwise.

So, you're telling me that there was no violence between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland in the last 50 or 60 years? There were no religious groups or leaders involved in any of the acts of terrorism? No divisions of society between Catholics and Protestants? Catholics and Protestants were free to socialize, inter marry, and wander around neighborhoods at will?
 

eanassir

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The interpretation of the Quran 24: 31

وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِي الْإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَى عَوْرَاتِ النِّسَاء وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ مِن زِينَتِهِنَّ وَتُوبُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا أَيُّهَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ


The explanation:
(And tell the believing women to lower their sights,

and guard their private parts,

and not to display their [beauty] and ornaments except that which is outward [on the cloak or on the veil or the shoe],

and should draw their veils over their bosoms,

and to display not their [beauty and] ornaments but only
>> to their husbands,
>> their fathers,
>> the fathers of their husbands,
>> their sons,
>> the sons of their husbands,
>> their brothers,
>> the sons of their brothers,
>> the sons of their sisters,
>> their women [: whether relatives or friends],
>> or the bondwomen whom they possess,
>> or such men as attend them 'not having sexual desire',
>> or children who have not yet been aware of women's private parts.

And that they should not strike their feet to draw attention to their hidden ornaments;

and turn in repentance to God, altogether, O believers, that you may prosper [In Paradise.])
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "veils" are put on heads and the bosoms are covered therewith.

====================================================================

The interpretation of the Quran 33: 59


يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَنَاتِكَ وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَابِيبِهِنَّ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُورًا رَّحِيمًا


The explanation:
(O prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the women of the believers,

that they should cast their "outer garments" * over their persons; that is most convenient, that they should not be recognized and not annoyed.

And God is Most Forgiving [their past negligence of the hijab], Most Merciful [for he commanded them to wore the hijab.)
-------------------------------------------------------------

*It is like the cloak with which the woman covers her body and covers their faces with it. Such "outer garments"were worn by Jewish women as also the Iranian women cover their bodies therewith.

This is in order that Jews and hypocrites of the Medina city would not know them Muslims and speak among them some bad words and backbite these women.


 

Omicron

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It is not like what you say: if you carefully read my reply once again, you will know that the messenger was Mohammed the messenger of God or the apostle of God.

So at the start, he reacted according to his justice, that she should retaliate her husband; but sooner the revelation came by Gabriel conveying the word from God All Knowing and Most Wise that the matter should not be dealt with in this way:

So... Mohammed said the woman should hit back, and the angel Gabriel said "No, it's okay for the husband to hit her"?

:roll: *sigh*... That makes Gabriel sound like a vindictive guy with a heart broken by rejection. Maybe someone had better comb over the translation?

no, man has a grade over woman;

Really. In what aspect do men have a "grade" over women?

Violence? Okay, yeah... it's a statistical fact that if all males between the ages of 18 to 25 were locked up,
then violent crime would drop by 95%.

Avarice and greed? Okay, yeah... if every guy over the age of 25 were locked up for life, then white-collar crime would drop by 95%.
... the wife should obey her husband as should he respect and honor her.
And the aya explained when he has the right to beat her: when she does not obey him (in bed in particular);


What were the other archangels doing all this time? Why was Gabriel doing all the talking?

Did Allah say it was time to attempt an integration of Arabs into the Abramic tent, whereupon Michael and Raphael balked because everyone knew that Arabs were a bunch of violent misogynists who liked to wed hateful harpies with sharp teeth, but Gabriel stepped up to the plate because he'd recently had his heart broken by a jilted romance?

Is this what Arab males in Mohammed's time were marrying?



Okay, I can see how one might need to be somewhat physically "persuasive" to get one of those to lay down for sex. Where did Arab guys find them; the desert? The requirement for Arab wives to wear head-dress and to cover-up and to not expose toenails in public all makes sense now. Mohammed really had his work cut out when called upon to mono-theologize guys into *that*.
she feels lofty over him; he has the right by the marriage bond and according to his dower that he gave; she does not give him his right: what shall he do?
Well, if it was me, I'd say "I don't want to hit my wife, so I'm not paying a dowry."
Will he go to the prostitute and commit adultery?
Looks like a market for a masochistic-women-for-hire service employing women who *like* to be hit for guys to go to when they feel like punching a female... would the guy be committing adultery if he hit one of those instead of his wife?
So why then did he get married?
I have NO idea! Why *would* any guy marry a woman who makes him feel like hitting her unless he's a sadist? That's just nuts.
So he has to advise and admonish her at the start, then he isolate himself and his bed from her bed, and if that does not profit, he beats her but not to break bone or wound or contuse her; so if she obey him, then he has not to do any more hurt in anyway.
Right... follow that recipe and she'll become like this :roll::



If the matter does not settle in this way, he then has the right to divorce her.
Why don't you just *start* with the divorce? If a man and women are incompatible, there's nothing easier than just walking away. What's she going to do? Run after you begging, "No please, beat me, beat me!"?
We have nothing to do with your country and social customs;

Uhh, well, actually you do if you live here. I guess what you're telling me is that you're not writing from Canada. So why are you on this forum?
the Muslim: the man has to honor his wife the mother of his children and to protect her and to expend out of his money on her and on his family about whom he is responsible. And the man has to live with his wife in good way and with good manner; the best of people is the best concerning his wife and family.
Fair enough... I just don't get the beating part. Long before it gets to the point of feeling an irresistible compulsion to hit someone, it should be easy enough to see that things are not going well and that it would make most sense to just pack up and leave if it's that bad.

Did it ever occur to you that if things are going so horribly wrong that your male aggressive instincts might be triggered into violence, that equivalently she might decide to settle the issue with a butcher knife when she's PMSing? Best to part.
NB: some women are cold sexually and will not react unless by some pinching or beating; and in many instances the woman fell in love with the man who slapped her on the face: she cried and loved him: I saw this in many Western movies.
In the first place, those Western movies had scenes like that for the shock value specifically *because* it is so blinkin' weird!

It's as nutty as guys who can't become friends with another until they've fought them.

I know they exist, I even met one. He wanted to be friends, but he couldn't be civilized until we'd had a punch-out, so he kept trying to provoke me into a fight, but I refused until one day he broke down in tears begging to know why I didn't want to be his friend. Yeesh...

So, are you telling me that for people like that, Islam is a religion that would understand them that way, and would be a sanctuary for their proclivities?

The woman should not be beaten unless in the way just explained: and this should not be to bruise the skin or wound her or break any bone.
Have you ever thought of just wrestling her down and tickling her?

In any case, if your wife is being a harpie, odds are she's PMSing, and the simplest thing to do is go fishing, or go hang out with your pals and play cards, or go play some golf, or any number of things. If she really likes you and if you really are a good couple, then when she's over it she'll come looking for you. That's what I do.
And the Prophet said: None honors the woman but only the noble man; and none humiliates her but only the rascal.
Right.
The "hijab" is both in the Quran and in the hadith.
And it is commanded on the Children of Israel before as is it commanded in the Quran for Muslims.
I heard that the minister of internal affairs of Italy said: (We cannot forbid the "hijab" because Virgin Mary the mother of the Christ wore the hijab.)
Yeah, and Christian nuns wear hijab, but it's because they *chose* to. Nobody told them, nor Mary, that they *had* to wear it.
And you should know that the commands of God will not change according to time intervals and periods: the word of God is unchangable.
Really? What did He say about war in an age of atomic bombs?
Moreover, there were many hypocrites (false Muslims: showing only their Islam while in fact they are disbelievers and disobedient) in the Medina city where the Prophet resided, and, by God's will, I shall give the interpretation of these ayat of the Glorious Quran as soon as possible according to the interpretation of the late Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly: the inspired interpreter of the Quran and the Bible.

www.quran-ayat.com
Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly?

He was the guy who wrote the book “The Universe and the Quran”, and in it he says:

"The weather of Mars is similar to the weather of Earth; its natural conditions are suitable for life, because it has air and water, and there is life on it and various kinds of plant and animal. On it there are human beings who worship and serve God; God sent to them- out of themselves- prophets and apostles (or messengers) to guide them."

He also wrote:

"Moreover, Mars comes next to Earth in its distance from Sun; its volume is larger than that of Earth. It rotates around itself and around the Sun, just like Earth. It also has two frozen poles. The inclination of its axis is more than 23 degrees (i.e. more than that of Earth); so it has alternation of the day and night and the seasons are longer than that of Earth."





I don't see any plants, animals or people. Not even an oasis.

As I understand it, the expectation was that people were supposed to read the Quran for themselves, and not be dependent on other people's interpretations.

Why are you depending on the interpretations of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly?
 
Last edited:

eanassir

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By God's will I shall disprove your points one after another.

In the previous replies you looked as one seeking after the truth, but now you take another way of mocking, which is almost not the correct way of discussion. Anyhow, we start by the first point.

So... Mohammed said the woman should hit back, and the angel Gabriel said "No, it's okay for the husband to hit her"?​

:roll: *sigh*... That makes Gabriel sound like a vindictive guy with a heart broken by rejection. Maybe someone had better comb over the translation?​


Gabriel only conveyed the Quran which is the word of God so Gabriel has no blameworthy act; so why do you blame him, like the old Jews who blamed Gabriel for bringing the revelation to Mohammed in stead of them.

As it is in the Quran 2: 97
قُلْ مَن كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبْرِيلَ فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَهُدًى وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ

The explanation:
(Say, 'Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel? For he has come down with it upon your heart, with God's permission, believing in that which is by his hands, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers.)

And God said in the Quran 27: 6
وَإِنَّكَ لَتُلَقَّى الْقُرْآنَ مِن لَّدُنْ حَكِيمٍ عَلِيمٍ

The explanation:
([O Mohammed, surely] you are given the Quran from a Most Wise, All-Knowing [God.])




Really. In what aspect do men have a "grade" over women?


Man has a grade over woman from anatomical, physiological, psychological, hormonal, intelligence, leadership, and the woman will bear the fetus in her womb and suckle him after birth, or will the man do this? and the woman has the monthly cycle or does the man has such cycle and its hormonal and psychological upset?


What were the other archangels doing all this time? Why was Gabriel doing all the talking?


To each of the angels is a specific duty to which he is responsible, as in the Quran
37: 164-166

وَمَا مِنَّا إِلَّا لَهُ مَقَامٌ مَّعْلُومٌ . وَإِنَّا لَنَحْنُ الصَّافُّونَ . وَإِنَّا لَنَحْنُ الْمُسَبِّحُونَ
The explanation:
(There is not anyone of us [: angels] but has his known position.

And it was we who set [the birds of 'Ababil'] in arrays.

And it was we who do celebrate the praises [of God.])



Did Allah say it was time to attempt an integration of Arabs into the Abramic tent, whereupon Michael and Raphael balked because everyone knew that Arabs were a bunch of violent misogynists who liked to wed hateful harpies with sharp teeth, but Gabriel stepped up to the plate because he'd recently had his heart broken by a jilted romance?


This is only some rancorous words; on the contrary the Arab were masters of themselves, loved the freedom, generosity, bravery and honor is very valuable to them. But to every nation, there are weak points needing reformation of the social wrong-doing found with all peoples everywhere.

Their Hearts Were Hardened


Is this what Arab males in Mohammed's time were marrying?




This is ridiculous and funny. :lol:


Okay, I can see how one might need to be somewhat physically "persuasive" to get one of those to lay down for sex. Where did Arab guys find them; the desert? The requirement for Arab wives to wear head-dress and to cover-up and to not expose toenails in public all makes sense now. Mohammed really had his work cut out when called upon to mono-theologize guys into *that*.


Nothing like what you say; and it does not mean if the woman wears her hijab, and everywhere and every time the woman is to be hit, I told you this is only in certain circumstances, not everyday practice and it does not mean every woman is to be beaten; this is only exceptional; the woman is to be honored and respected.


Well, if it was me, I'd say "I don't want to hit my wife, so I'm not paying a dowry."


No one is imposing anything on you; so don't hit your wife as you like, dear.

Looks like a market for a masochistic-women-for-hire service employing women who *like* to be hit for guys to go to when they feel like punching a female... would the guy be committing adultery if he hit one of those instead of his wife?
I have NO idea! Why *would* any guy marry a woman who makes him feel like hitting her unless he's a sadist? That's just nuts.
Right... follow that recipe and she'll become like this :roll::​




That is ridiculous, and funny; thank you for such silly paintings. :lol:


Why don't you just *start* with the divorce? If a man and women are incompatible, there's nothing easier than just walking away. What's she going to do? Run after you begging, "No please, beat me, beat me!"?


The divorce is very ugly and loathsome; it is the breaking down of the family; so why do you cling to such point of beating, and I said to you it is not the ordinary and usual behavior?

Uhh, well, actually you do if you live here. I guess what you're telling me is that you're not writing from Canada. So why are you on this forum?

To disprove you and those like you.


Fair enough... I just don't get the beating part. Long before it gets to the point of feeling an irresistible compulsion to hit someone, it should be easy enough to see that things are not going well and that it would make most sense to just pack up and leave if it's that bad.


Don't tell me :lol:


Did it ever occur to you that if things are going so horribly wrong that your male aggressive instincts might be triggered into violence, that equivalently she might decide to settle the issue with a butcher knife when she's PMSing? Best to part.
In the first place, those Western movies had scenes like that for the shock value specifically *because* it is so blinkin' weird!


Nice movies.


It's as nutty as guys who can't become friends with another until they've fought them.


I know they exist, I even met one. He wanted to be friends, but he couldn't be civilized until we'd had a punch-out, so he kept trying to provoke me into a fight, but I refused until one day he broke down in tears begging to know why I didn't want to be his friend. Yeesh...


Ho ho ho !!


So, are you telling me that for people like that, Islam is a religion that would understand them that way, and would be a sanctuary for their proclivities?


You are telling me.:la:


Have you ever thought of just wrestling her down and tickling her?


:tongue3:

and the simplest thing to do is go fishing, or go hang out with your pals and play cards, or go play some golf, or any number of things.


Not every man can forbear such humiliating situation.:confused3:

Yeah, and Christian nuns wear hijab, but it's because they *chose* to. Nobody told them, nor Mary, that they *had* to wear it.


And you think the woman the Muslim is forced to wear the hijab; so try to tell her to unwear it.:angry2:

Really? What did He say about war in an age of atomic bombs?


The war is not good unless for defending the religion of God against His enemy.
If Mohammed is truthful in his prophet-hood, then why did he use war and fighting in his mission?
[: the Jihad or Holy War]

Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly?

He was the guy who wrote the book “The Universe and the Quran”, and in it he says:

"The weather of Mars is similar to the weather of Earth; its natural conditions are suitable for life, because it has air and water, and there is life on it and various kinds of plant and animal. On it there are human beings who worship and serve God; God sent to them- out of themselves- prophets and apostles (or messengers) to guide them."

He also wrote:

"Moreover, Mars comes next to Earth in its distance from Sun; its volume is larger than that of Earth. It rotates around itself and around the Sun, just like Earth. It also has two frozen poles. The inclination of its axis is more than 23 degrees (i.e. more than that of Earth); so it has alternation of the day and night and the seasons are longer than that of Earth."


The man said the truth, and things that are not yet discovered.





I don't see any plants, animals or people. Not even an oasis.


Have you gone there yourself and explored every place on Mars, or only the machines transported some pictures and they landed in inappropriate places in the desert of Mars; if they go near the mountain bases they almost will find life and the water flowing below these mountains the tops of which are covered with ice.

As I understand it, the expectation was that people were supposed to read the Quran for themselves, and not be dependent on other people's interpretations.

Why are you depending on the interpretations of Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly?​


Because he is inspired and received the interpretation by revelation so that he interpreted the mysterious ayat of the Quran and solved the puzzles included in it.


www.quran-ayat.com

المتشابه من القرآن 1
 

Omicron

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Gabriel only conveyed the Quran which is the word of God so Gabriel has no blameworthy act; so why do you blame him, like the old Jews who blamed Gabriel for bringing the revelation to Mohammed in stead of them.
There were old Jews who complained about that? Really?
Man has a grade over woman from anatomical,
Uh, frankly I think that anatomically they look better.
physiological,
Physiological? Women have more endurance. Men are stronger, but for short bursts. Women have a physiology enabling them to carry on at endeavors requiring a steady pace for longer periods than men. I know this because physiology was one of the things I studied in university.

If women have inferior physiologies, then why do they live longer than men?
psychological,
How so? They definitely have less trouble with loosing their temper.
hormonal,
That's just an artifact of being the child-bearers, without whom our species would go extinct.
intelligence,
Not where I'm from. The women I went to university with were every bit as intelligent as the guys, and some even more so than any of the guys I knew.

Smart women were the ones who were the most fun to hook up with. You could converse with them about anything *and* they were the most fun to get intimate with. Ahh... university days.

leadership,
That's the only thing I can think of that men do more naturally than women, but to have leadership, you have to have followers, and all it means is that guys are easier about organizing themselves into hierarchical ranks and accepting the authority of others. For every leader you've got to have many followers, so among men, followers outnumber leaders.
and the woman will bear the fetus in her womb and suckle him after birth, or will the man do this?
That makes them a grade below?!? Good grief, that makes them more important to the survival of the species!

Guy's aren't so important. A typical male has 70 million sperm in one ejaculate, which means with one ejaculation he has enough sperm to re-populate Britain, but there would have to be 70 million women for that to happen.

What it means is that the human species could survive with very, very, very few males, but not very few females.

Maybe the reason Allah made men the warriors is because they're so expendable.
and the woman has the monthly cycle or does the man has such cycle and its hormonal and psychological upset?
Why does that make her a grade less? If anything it implies they have a stronger constitution in order to endure it. If guys had hormonal cycles with mood swings like that they'd go insane and start hacking each other with machetes every month, yet women can weather it.

Maybe Allah gave the all-important human process of reproducing the species, with its concomitant hormone cycles and mood swings, to women because they were the sex with the psychological and physiological strength to endure it?
Nothing like what you say; and it does not mean if the woman wears her hijab, and everywhere and every time the woman is to be hit, I told you this is only in certain circumstances, not everyday practice and it does not mean every woman is to be beaten; this is only exceptional; the woman is to be honored and respected.

I can't think of any circumstance, even in the worst arguments with a steady or a spouse - and there's been some doozies - that it was ever necessary to even remotely consider striking them.

If the argument started getting circular and/or if I could see it was being induced by a hormone mood-swing, I would (and still do) just walk away, find something else to do, and sooner or later they always show up in a much easier state of mind. Then sometimes they want to "talk about it", which means listen to them and at least pretend you understand what they're trying to say, so I listen, we make up, and life carries on.

No one is imposing anything on you; so don't hit your wife as you like, dear.
Hardy har har. Now you're going to imply that I'm something less of a man if I *don't* want to hit women? Your existence validates the hypothesis that neanderthals never went extinct.

Men are bigger and stronger than women because of all the testosterone, so it's simply an issue of how unfair and unjust it is for a guy to hit a woman.

It's easy to feel smug and confident when cranked on testosterone, but I bet if guys didn't have all the testosterone yet everything else was the same, then women would smack them down like blubbering babies if the guy really wanted to fight.

You think women don't know where a guy's emotional soft spots are? Who raised you as a kid? Who fed you? Who comforted you when you hurt yourself? Who taught you language? etc. etc. bla bla bla... I bet it wasn't your dad.

The divorce is very ugly and loathsome; it is the breaking down of the family; so why do you cling to such point of beating, and I said to you it is not the ordinary and usual behavior?
I know plenty of situations where life improved for both the kids and the mother when the divorce option was finally exercised.

Maybe that's just here, where women can be independent and self-employed if they want.

Did you know that on average, married men live longer than unmarried men, because they can get so many healthy benefits from being married.

Did you know that on average, unmarried women live longer than married women, because marriage can be such a burden on them?

Uhh, well, actually you do if you live here. I guess what you're telling me is that you're not writing from Canada. So why are you on this forum?
To disprove you and those like you.
Disprove *what*? That I'm wrong to think it's barbaric to hit women?!?
In the first place, those Western movies had scenes like that for the shock value specifically *because* it is so blinkin' weird!

Nice movies.

You like watching moves of guys hitting women. Okee dokee... :???:

Are you a woman-hater? Did you get jilted by the love of your life, who broke your heart?
and the simplest thing to do is go fishing, or go hang out with your pals and play cards, or go play some golf, or any number of things.
Not every man can forbear such humiliating situation.:confused3:
What's so humiliating about it? If I call up one of my pals and say, "Hey, my wife's on the rag, let's go play golf", they just laugh and we go knock a round or two, and if they call me with the same problem, I'll go join them for some fishing or some poker. It's no big deal.

Do you think yours would be the only wife in the world to have periodic mood swings?

All the women I've been with liked what I was able to do for them with my advantages and the stuff I was good at, and I liked what they could do for me with their advantages and they stuff they were good at; we'd shared, and it's the *best* way to live when compatible, and it's fun; mostly it's based on having the same sense of humor and having IQs within five points of each other... which means if there was a problem, all I'd have to do is remove myself from the picture and after awhile they'd *always* come looking for me in a more leveled-out state of mind. Geez... it's not rocket science.

It sounds like you're describing situations where the wife simply does *not* want to be there in a relationship with her husband, such that she'll be argumentative and will do things like refuse to put-out in bed, and I gotta tell you, to me, a marriage like that sounds like hell, and I can't imagine why any guy would want to stay in it, using tactics like physical abuse to keep it going.
And you think the woman the Muslim is forced to wear the hijab; so try to tell her to unwear it.:angry2:
They are forced to wear it in lots of places... Iran comes to mind, but I know there are others.

They can't be forced to wear it here, because we have laws restricting one person's right to impose their will on the freedom-of-choice of another, so what some of the mosques do is *pay* women a monthly stipend to wear their hijab in public, so it's still a kind of coercion.

Still, I think it's weird how the original purpose of hijab was so Muslim women could go out in public without being recognizable as Muslim, so they wouldn't get harassed in the marketplace, yet somehow over the centuries you guys turned it around so that they're basically *announcing* their Islamicness in big bold terms by wearing it, which means its use today has become exactly the opposite of what the original purpose was.
I've always wondered about that. Why *did* he use war and fighting in his mission if he was truthful in his prophet-hood?
The man [Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly] said the truth, and things that are not yet discovered.
But everything's already supposed to be in the Quran. Does that make Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly an Iman?
 
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