That is exactly what I was getting at yesterday much to the chagrin of one poster who objected to a fitting analogy that was very apropos. :smile:
Independence for Quebec
- Thread starter Aliksander
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That is exactly what I was getting at yesterday much to the chagrin of one poster who objected to a fitting analogy that was very apropos. :smile:
Are you referring to the analogy that Quebec is like a spoiled brat which threatens to leave but never do? I object to this analogy because it clearly puts Quebec in an inferiority position. Canada is the adult and Quebec the child. This condescending view of things is no way to conduct a fruitful debate.
A more fitting analogy would have something more to do with a marriage that is struggling with one member continually threatening to leave. This at least has the benefits of giving both sides an equal status.
Sorry YukonJack, what I should have said is your posts have never been, do not now and never will be worthy of consideration.
NOW, it is the end of discussion.
(How long must I parrot you to get my point across?)
HAHAHAHAHA
There are those that can debate and there are those that can't. I'm just glad no ones a politician or else we'd be in deeper sh!t.
Congratulations on failing elementary logic. The only thing you have proven is that Quebec is not an independent country.
Thank you for this illuminating bit of wisdom.
[QUOTE
A more fitting analogy would have something more to do with a marriage that is struggling with one member continually threatening to leave. This at least has the benefits of giving both sides an equal status.
QUOTE]
Yep, that would be another fitting analogy, but I'd have to question the "equal status" as the sign law clearly demonstrates an inferior status as far as intelligence goes. :smile:
A more fitting analogy would have something more to do with a marriage that is struggling with one member continually threatening to leave. This at least has the benefits of giving both sides an equal status.
QUOTE]
Yep, that would be another fitting analogy, but I'd have to question the "equal status" as the sign law clearly demonstrates an inferior status as far as intelligence goes. :smile:
There is no equal official status when it comes to language in Quebec. French is the official language, not English.
Of course, the problem is that Quebec is part of Canada and the latter has both French and English as official languages. And here lies the biggest conceptual dissonance between the two entities. Quebecers do not recognize Canadian authority in terms of language legislation. And Canada does not recognize Quebec's independence in language legislation.
They almost did a few years ago. I see no reason why they won't leave. The separation will be extremely painful and messy (e.g., what about the national debt, does Northern Quebec goes with French Quebec, or do Natives prefer to stay with Canada etc.), but it can be accomplished.
And if the separation takes place according to Clarity act ( a clear, concise question, a large majority), I for one would be opposed to keeping them in Canada by force.
That's my take on it Y.J. - now get back to your atlas..........................:lol::lol::lol:
And this is where I say you're mistaken.
The province of Quebec IS inferior to Canada as a whole because it is ONE province out of ten, and not one of the more affluent ones at that. Quebec or any other province in the Federation is a child to a parent, not an equal. Quebec is more the equal of Ontario, Alberta, BC, and the other individual provinces, not to the ROC as a whole.
That was my initial reaction but then I got mulling it over a litle more and then thought in terms of "Canada" being the family, Ontario and Quebec being the Mother and Dad and the other provinces being the kids. So that is why I conceded his analogy, although I still think mine of the spoilt brat fits better. :lol::lol:
When it comes to separation, things like affluence are of secondary importance. The main question is, do Quebecois feel that they are Canadians? The answer to this depends upon many factors, economics, cultural identity, language, a sense of belonging, a sense of being hard done by etc.
In the end, it is up to Quebecois to decide if they want to stay in Canada. But my viewpoint is, if they want to go, they are welcome to leave, provided it is done according to the Clarity Act, and all the other thorny issues surrounding the separation (and there are many) are sorted out.
We have a totally different understanding of what Canada ought to be. Here in Quebec most of us don't view Canada as being superior to Quebec because Canada is understood as being a union of identities. Not an authoritative master. Yes, Canada stands on a higher hierarchical level of importance in the sense that Canada represents a higher proportion of people than Quebec alone. But that doesn't make Canada a master of Quebec.
A union does not mean that the identities forming the union are dissolved and lose their distinctness and independence. We are interdependent. All provinces have a degree of sovereignty to some degree. And when it comes to language, we refuse to let Canada impede that sovereignty. You can brag all you want about Canada being superior to Quebec. It changes nothing to the fact that we are still protecting our language the way we choose it despite the general disapproval of the rest of the country.
From what I understand, the English Canadian nation is more rooted in the conception of individual rights while the Quebec nation has a stronger tendency towards the concept of collective rights. I believe Canada can harbour both in peace and harmony if we accept that different models of society can coexist within a larger political framework (the Canadian Confederation).
But most of the maritimes are as senior as Ontario and Quebec (the lone exception being Newfoundland) thus are there 4 or 5 parents (PEI although territorily present never became a province in its own right until 1873)? The issue can be further confused when you look historically at the fact that Nova Scotia predates Ontario in its tenure as a British colony even... so how do we determine which province is what?
For the most part I agree with you but I also think things like the economic strength of the regions come into play because of their impact on allowing the governing bodies to pay for the plans they have. Most Quebec seperatists that I have encountered seem to have this romanticized view of what will happen shortly after they declare their independence from Canada: their economy will prosper without the excessive weight of the Canadian Federation holding it back and their language and culture will soar to new heights. They seem to think that the Canadian gov't will fall over itself welcoming them to the brotherhood of nations and accede to all their desires in terms on all manner of issues.
The reality that I keep seeing is a poor (by US and Canadian standards) region, burdened with debt, with some potential but held back and isolated by its insist refusal to adopt the prevalent language of international business, in favour of its own dialect of a language that is fading from prominence internationally. President Clinton made the statement in his tenure (in the run up to Parizeau's referendum bid, where he also stated that he hoped Quebec would always remain part of Canada) that an independent Quebec is NOT automatically a partner in NAFTA and would have to negotiate its entry into the agreement. Now a different US administration may adopt a different tone or a new Quebec gov't may be able to negotiate a seperate trade deal with the US, but I tend to believe there won't be much desire to cooperate with Quebec from the Canadian gov't unless it was on VERY favorable terms. I know I've stated this before but I've not seen anything to make me believe otherwise, especially given the sweetheart deal that sectors like the Quebec dairy industry have, as part of the federation, that will be voided by seperation.
I agree with you for the most part. But the decision to separate is not made logically, objectively. It is made emotionally. It is clear that Quebec will have plenty of problems if it separates, at least initially. And that is after thorny issues such as how much national debt they should assume, or should Quebec be partitioned (if natives want to say in Canada) and so on are settled.
It will struggle initially. But I suspect that even if your Quebecois friends are convinced of this, it won’t cool their separatist zeal. They want their own nation, and they probably are prepared to weather the economic storm that my hit them right after independence.