WHY do Muslims believe the text of the Bible has been corrupted?

[MHz]

Of course they are from the New Testament, a book changed and interpreted so many times like you change your socks. It has been changed in order to accommodate certain social, political situations and lets not forget the personal ambitions of a few despots thru out history..


Yet the order of the Ten Commandments may have changed, the meanings of them remain pretty much the same.

Then go back to the most oldest and most read one. How many versions are needed, only one is in the 'public domain' meaning it can be quoted endlessly. The preface to that version comes with a preface that explains some of the back-ground, all other copyright Bibles have their preface being more about who own the words and what you are required to do should you want to 'quote them'. The KJV1611 version has the 10 Commandments carried over fully intact but reduced to two Laws, one is about our relationship with God and the other is about our relationship with each other.

If things like that don't guide you (or anybody) on which version you want to 'own' then at least expect some differences in the general over-view the texts lead you to 'understand'.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Of course they are from the New Testament, a book changed and interpreted so many times like you change your socks. It has been changed in order to accommodate certain social, political situations and lets not forget the personal ambitions of a few despots thru out history..


Yet the order of the Ten Commandments may have changed, the meanings of them remain pretty much the same.

I did not say that the order of the Commandments is different. The Commandments themselves are substantially different.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The message can easily be understood...

Sure, that's why almost nobody agrees with your understanding of the book, and there are thousands of other views of it. What are there, something like 10,000 different sects of Protestantism?

 

[AnnaG]

That doesn't hold up if the purpose of the prophecies is a requirement rather than option. The Bible says God has to inform the ones about things He is going to do before He does them. The early parts of the Bible mention the end that Revelation covers. The basic message cannot be changed, salvation and even if it was a pristine set of Scriptures man might not understand them due to errors in their thinking rather than the problem being with the Book itself.

If the god had any sense it would just replace the message rather than letting people keep changing it to suit themselves.

"Hey, you dopes down there. That's not what I meant. Quit messing with the message!"

 

[MHz]

Sure, that's why almost nobody agrees with your understanding of the book, and there are thousands of other views of it. What are there, something like 10,000 different sects of Protestantism?

You might be exaggerating that view somewhat, it is 'nobody', not 'almost nobody' . lol
The sect number is closer than apart, but again the issue is, whose fault is that, Scripture or the reader. A very good reason they should not be judging others wouldn't you say? Or having a voice in international affairs when war is the topic.

If the god had any sense it would just replace the message rather than letting people keep changing it to suit themselves.

"Hey, you dopes down there. That's not what I meant. Quit messing with the message!"

The message is just fine, as messed up as we have made it it doesn't have any bearing on what happens when the world gets a new King. Some are the cream and the rest are milk, both, that isn't a message that can be altered without some hidden agenda being involved. For the 50 million Christians that support a false doctrine that means 50 million that will going to Hell rather than being with the ones who are the first to be given immortal life. If they made themselves into little bitches during their short mortal life imagine what a pain in the ass they would be if they were given immortality without the new code of conduct. (no desire to piss people off, intentionally)

 

[AnnaG]

*shrugs* I bet there are loads of people around that would swear up and down that their particular version of the message is the correct one
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but they all say the message says something different.
To give a simple example; there are those that think the first two human beings were actually named Adam and Eve. Others would disagree.

 

[MHz]

To give a simple example; there are those that think the first two human beings were actually named Adam and Eve. Others would disagree.

That's fine, that doesn't mean that ,as a Christian, I have the right to kill them because they disagree. Almost everybody on the planet would agree that Europe in the Middle Ages was not a hotbed of 'tolerance' from the Churches in power. Yet that same attitude somewhat the same these days, Christians ratcheting up the persecution on somebody they thing should not be breathing, today it is Muslims under the gun. literally.

The 50 million Christians that promote persecution against Muslims are 50 million that will be in Hell if Christ was to arrive to that sort of conduct. Even if not 'soon' all the ones that died naturally would still get the punishment. All because they refused to read the book for themselves, the book is the Shepherd. Is it irony when the 'self chosen' lose more to death when our God arrives than the ones normally called 'heathens' by the Church.

 

[AnnaG]

That's fine, that doesn't mean that ,as a Christian, I have the right to kill them because they disagree. Almost everybody on the planet would agree that Europe in the Middle Ages was not a hotbed of 'tolerance' from the Churches in power. Yet that same attitude somewhat the same these days, Christians ratcheting up the persecution on somebody they thing should not be breathing, today it is Muslims under the gun. literally.

The 50 million Christians that promote persecution against Muslims are 50 million that will be in Hell if Christ was to arrive to that sort of conduct. Even if not 'soon' all the ones that died naturally would still get the punishment. All because they refused to read the book for themselves, the book is the Shepherd. Is it irony when the 'self chosen' lose more to death when our God arrives than the ones normally called 'heathens' by the Church.

So? All this nonsense could be avoided if your god would quity being an ass and just embed his messages in our DNA rather than we applying our various different meanings to the messages. The term "gross incompetence" comes to mind.

 

[MHz]

The term "gross incompetence" comes to mind.

You are going to have to get used to us doing just that until He sends Christ back to finish the job. You might have a point if He had left us 10,000 different Bibles, as it is they were from one copy.

 

[ironsides]

I did not say that the order of the Commandments is different. The Commandments themselves are substantially different.

Which ones are substantially different?


Division of the Ten Commandments by religion/denomination

Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...the issue is, whose fault is that, Scripture or the reader.

Partly both but only in a small way. The major fault has to be with the deity who handed down the most crucial message of all time without taking any steps to ensure it'd be correctly preserved and accurately passed on, and wrote a very sloppy text open to many interpretations. That of course assumes one believes scripture is a message from the deity. I don't. I know you do, and so do some others here, though as you say, your particular understanding of it is unique to you. It's also only one of many documents considered to be holy writ of some sort by various cultures around the world, I see no compelling reason to fasten on that one as being the only correct one. It's only because you grew up in a nominally Christian culture that you picked it. If you'd grown up as eanassir did you'd be saying the same things about the Quran.

 

[MHz]

Partly both but only in a small way. The major fault has to be with the deity who handed down the most crucial message of all time without taking any steps to ensure it'd be correctly preserved and accurately passed on, and wrote a very sloppy text open to many interpretations.

Those many can be whittled down to just a few, one actually. It is true about the OT, some things were kept intentionally vague. Nailing down who the people are in this verse really narrows things down, when letting the Bible tell it's own tale.

That of course assumes one believes scripture is a message from the deity. I don't. I know you do, and so do some others here, though as you say, your particular understanding of it is unique to you.

You don't have to be a believer to understand the Script. Even in your disbelief you cannot let go of the version you were taught. In those first two examples I gave why can people not see the consequences of my version being correct. I don't even have to do much except say when this event happened it was at this part of a prophecy, shortly after the Garden and the cross Gentiles qualified as becoming the 'little ones' (when the NT reference ), they have a time of Judgment coming, 2/3 of them will bite the dust for 1,000 years.

It's also only one of many documents considered to be holy writ of some sort by various cultures around the world, I see no compelling reason to fasten on that one as being the only correct one. It's only because you grew up in a nominally Christian culture that you picked it. If you'd grown up as eanassir did you'd be saying the same things about the Quran.

Atheists and Muslims and all the others on the planet only have to know they are not judged on those attributes, God is simply going to put people into the groups in Re:2 and 3.
My respect for other life comes from my years on a farm with 'critters' that needed taking care of.
Please avoid the 'if ya' scenarios.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Those many can be whittled down to just a few, one actually. .

No, they cannot. That's precisely the point. You've got it whittled down to one, but that's only in YOUR mind, many other views at least as defensible as yours exist. My considered opinion is that they're all wrong, because they're based on the belief that there exists at least one supernatural being that has some interest in us. I'm convinced that's a false belief, a delusion, so any chain of argument that begins with it is not going to arrive at a correct conclusion.

 

[MHz]

No, they cannot. That's precisely the point. You've got it whittled down to one, but that's only in YOUR mind, many other views at least as defensible as yours exist. My considered opinion is that they're all wrong, because they're based on the belief that there exists at least one supernatural being that has some interest in us. I'm convinced that's a false belief, a delusion, so any chain of argument that begins with it is not going to arrive at a correct conclusion.

Not really in my mind if it requires 'some assembly'. In my conversations with those who are already Christians I've heard most of the arguments, the older ones and the newer ones. It's to the point it's almost amusing if the stakes weren't as high as they are. If I have accused you of cutting and running in the middle of a discussion think of the reaction I get from some of them. More or less the same thing, stone cold silence.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Which ones are substantially different?


Division of the Ten Commandments by religion/denomination

Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the main difference is that Catholics don’t have the Commandment about not making graven image of God (Protestants do). Indeed, Catholics have no problem with making images of both Jesus and Mary.

The tenth Commandment of Protestants is broken into 9th and 10th Commandment by the Catholics. Catholics in effect have only nine Commandments (since they do not have the Commandment about graven image).

If you want to compare Catholic and Protestant Commandments you can do it here:

Catholic 10 Commandments

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It's to the point it's almost amusing if the stakes weren't as high as they are.

My judgment is that the stakes in this particular context are exactly zero: there's no supernatural being who cares what we do, Revelation's not about our future, and the Bible's largely a work of fiction. It's pretty good fiction, mind you, deals with all the themes that concern any thoughtful person, but it's still fiction.

If I have accused you of cutting and running in the middle of a discussion...

You have indeed accused me of that, falsely in my view. I just didn't respond the way you wanted me to, because in terms of my view of the world what you'd asked for was meaningless.

 

[In Between Man]

WHY do Muslims believe the text of the Bible has been corrupted?

Because they need a reason to resist the truth!

Muslims also claim that the disciples made up the gospel to gain power over the people, but when asked what power they gained they can't answer. Because everyone knows that since the disciples faced persecution and death, they had every reason to deny the gospel. Fortunate for mankind, they were brave enough to record the truth.

Islam's just another false religion that's got *NOTHING* on the good faith.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Fortunate for mankind, they were brave enough to record the truth.

Best evidence is that the gospels were written long after after Jesus' death by people who'd never met him, they were just recording and codifying an oral tradition that had no doubt been embellished a great deal. Islam and Christianity are equally false.

 

[ironsides]

I think the main difference is that Catholics don’t have the Commandment about not making graven image of God (Protestants do). Indeed, Catholics have no problem with making images of both Jesus and Mary.

The tenth Commandment of Protestants is broken into 9th and 10th Commandment by the Catholics. Catholics in effect have only nine Commandments (since they do not have the Commandment about graven image).

If you want to compare Catholic and Protestant Commandments you can do it here:

Catholic 10 Commandments

While Catholics are often accused of worshiping images, in violation of the first commandment,[36] the Church says this is a misunderstanding. In the Church's opinion, "the honor paid to sacred images is a 'respectful veneration', not the adoration due to God alone".

They took out graven image and replaced it with strange gods before me.

Who Made Sunday Holy?
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord' was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the (Catholic) Church's sense of its own power…People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” — St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.
“Question - Which is the Sabbath day?
“Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.
“Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
“Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_doctrine_regarding_the_Ten_Commandments#cite_note-Kreeft209-36

 

[MHz]

My judgment is that the stakes in this particular context are exactly zero: there's no supernatural being who cares what we do,

There never was any promise made that the existence of God would be of benefit to man during what is called 'the time of the Gentiles', a book of words is the whole of what God left. Why would it be more effective than living people that God sent occasionally in the OT. I'm quite sure God can take things into account that would make us lift our eyebrows or smack our forheads with an open palm.

Revelation's not about our future, and the Bible's largely a work of fiction. It's pretty good fiction, mind you, deals with all the themes that concern any thoughtful person, but it's still fiction.

I especially like the part where the dimensions for Ezekiel's temple and the land are compared to New Jerusalem's dimension ends up being the circumference of the earth. How did they fluke that one eh? lol

You have indeed accused me of that, falsely in my view. I just didn't respond the way you wanted me to, because in terms of my view of the world what you'd asked for was meaningless.

Are you saying I was trying to 'trick you'?