Tory G8 abortion stance

[talloola]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

exactly. Once born, moms are interchangeable. No woman is THE ONLY woman who can raise any single child, despite how we might like to think so.



Why stick to an imaginary point in a real topic?

It was just a question to be answered, not turned into
another scenario.
Seems pretty easy to me, but when your emotions get in the
way, I guess that makes it difficult for you to think.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

You ducked the issue and those weren't options. The option is to watch the baby die or force the mother to give breast milk. Do you think the law will force her to for this already born baby?

You guys seem to completely miss what the real issue is. It's a legal rights issue that focuses on who has control of the mother's body. Her or someone else. It has nothing to do with a definition of when life begins.

A woman who refuses to feed her child, is usually deprived of the child by whichever child welfare dep't of the gov'ts. And then sometimes charged with an offense.

:roll: The FACTS are that the stupid bitch gave up her exclusive right when she got her useless ass pregnant. Now, like many other "adults", she has more important things she is responsible for then her own selfish self.

One of those "stupid bitch useless asses" gave birth to you. Although some people may have other hypotheses about your origin.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: Henry Morgantaler- Saint or Common Criminal?

that argument kind of falls apart when abortion rates have dropped more than crime rates have I think. It implies education is the biggest factor as far as I can see.

I do not agree with using abortions as birth control. Aborting a child you could carry for 9 months and adopt out, is never excusable to me. I think society has royally ****ed up the way young girls see life, when we preach to them that it ends with a pregnancy, when we perpetuate the idea that the worst thing that could happen to your household is a child coming home pregnant. It is a huge disservice that we have visited upon our modern culture.

Henry Morgantaler has worked within that culture to end the deaths of women and girls who bought into the fear and the patriarchal bull**** regarding their bodies. Does that make him a saint? No. A sinner? My gut doesn't think so. It just makes him a typical human, working within a flawed culture.

Bump.

 

[karrie]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

It was just a question to be answered, not turned into
another scenario.
Seems pretty easy to me, but when your emotions get in the
way, I guess that makes it difficult for you to think.

Precisely. And the question was 'what rights should fetuses have'. Not, what would happen in an imaginary scenario that couldn't ever happen, to a baby already living in the world'. But, some people get all emotional and decide they're going to go on tangents because they're getting mad and want to drag it to the ridiculous and implausible.

 

[karrie]

Re: morning after pill

Hi Karrie

Do you refer to health in prevention of fertilization and implantation as opposed to... abortion? Or continued gestation to birth?

Health as opposed to continued gestation to birth.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: morning after pill

Health as opposed to continued gestation to birth.

Yeah. Any medical procedure carries a risk, I think, and should be avoided if at all possible. Better to carry to term and adopt out rather than abort, IMO.

 

[gerryh]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

One of those "stupid bitch useless asses" gave birth to you. Although some people may have other hypotheses about your origin.

actually...no... my mother never refused to feed any of her kids like this useless bitch is doing. She never had an abortion and used the excuse that it would ruin her figure to be pregnant, or any of a 100 other self centered excuses used to kill a child. So get it straight who is the useless bitch and why.

 

[talloola]

Re: morning after pill

Adoption is wonderful for the right mother, but I never
could have carried a child full term with the intention to
adopt, never, once the pregnancy was well on it's way, past the third month, I'm in it all the way, but I could choose an 'early' abortion, not a problem there for me, but even
then, at a much younger age, I was very fearful of medical
procedures, (of any kind), and probably would have been too
scared to let a doctor do the procedure.

Back in the 60s abortions were
not done in any hospital, in a sterile and safe environment,
so the thought of going to some back alley butcher would
have been 'out' for me.

A friend of mine tried to give 'herself' a miscarriage, 17
yrs old,
(knitting needle), it makes me feel horrible even to think
about it.
It worked, but for years she had problems with ovaries,
and miscarriages, and finally they had to remove her ovaries
completely, and she never did have children of her own.

Her first marriage fell apart, no
children, and she became unfaithful and also suffered from depression and guilt, and spent a little time in a mental institution,but finally she married again, and they adopted two
children, and she went on to have a happy life.

 

[talloola]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Precisely. And the question was 'what rights should fetuses have'. Not, what would happen in an imaginary scenario that couldn't ever happen, to a baby already living in the world'. But, some people get all emotional and decide they're going to go on tangents because they're getting mad and want to drag it to the ridiculous and implausible.

I was just referring to kreskin's question, 'nothing more',
and only answering gerryh's comment, but because of double
ing up on posts, seems like I was answering both, not so.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

I am 'not' a pro lifer.

No sane person is talloola. To force a woman to have a baby against her will is such an outrageous, such a heinous act that it needs the fanaticism and dedication of a religious fanatic to do it.

But they would have to 'physically' force milk from her,
can you picture that, maybe in iraq.
People would have to hold her down, while someone attaches a breast pump
to her, and pumps the milk out.
He did say 'the mother's milk', not any mother's milk.

That wouldn’t bother the prolifers. I remember they interviewed a prolifer a few years ago. They asked him even if they were able to ban all abortions, how were they going to stop back street abortions from happening.

His reply was that for a ban on abortion to truly work, they will need a national network of spies. In addition to paid spies, they would encourage family members, friends, acquaintances etc. to report any rumors of back street abortions to government, which will then take appropriate action.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

actually...no... my mother never refused to feed any of her kids like this useless bitch is doing. She never had an abortion and used the excuse that it would ruin her figure to be pregnant, or any of a 100 other self centered excuses used to kill a child. So get it straight who is the useless bitch and why.

*shrugs* You didn't specify in your post what type of mother you were referring to, so it looked like a general statement..

No sane person is talloola. To force a woman to have a baby against her will is such an outrageous, such a heinous act that it needs the fanaticism and dedication of a religious fanatic to do it.



That wouldn’t bother the prolifers. I remember they interviewed a prolifer a few years ago. They asked him even if they were able to ban all abortions, how were they going to stop back street abortions from happening.

His reply was that for a ban on abortion to truly work, they will need a national network of spies. In addition to paid spies, they would encourage family members, friends, acquaintances etc. to report any rumors of back street abortions to government, which will then take appropriate action.

Link? Who is "they"?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

You don't understand what the issue is. It must be frustrating and no doubt why you have these perpetual hissy fits.

The issue really is very simple. Can the government force a woman to have a baby, against her will? The answer is plainly that it cannot. If she cannot abort legally, she will abort illegally. There are many countries in the world where abortion is illegal, but abortion rates are comparable to countries where it is legal.

Forcing a woman to have a baby against her will is the worst form of slavery and I don’t see any educated, self respecting woman putting up with that.

 

[JLM]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

No sane person is talloola. One has to be a religious fanatic to be a pro lifer. To force a woman to have a baby against her will is such an outrageous, such a heinous act that it needs the fanaticism and dedication of a religious fanatic to do it.

.

Now you have the proper official answer, Talloola, so you don't have to waste any more valuable time listening to a bunch of us know nothings...............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[gerryh]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

*shrugs* You didn't specify in your post what type of mother you were referring to, so it looked like a general statement..

:roll: it was in response to Kreskins rediculous and impossible scenario.

 

[AnnaG]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

The issue really is very simple. Can the government force a woman to have a baby, against her will? The answer is plainly that it cannot. If she cannot abort legally, she will abort illegally. There are many countries in the world where abortion is illegal, but abortion rates are comparable to countries where it is legal.

Forcing a woman to have a baby against her will is the worst form of slavery and I don’t see any educated, self respecting woman putting up with that.

Slavery?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: morning after pill

Pro lifers don’t accept the morning after pill, in their eyes, morning after pill is same as getting an abortion.

The logic goes something like this; human life begins at conception, it is a baby at conception. So anything that prevents implanting of embryo also kills the baby. Hence pro lifer opposition to morning after pill.

Indeed, it was a huge battle to get it legalized in USA, it was as difficult to get morning after pill legalized as it was to get the abortion pill legalized.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: Henry Morgantaler- Saint or Common Criminal?

If saint or criminal are the only options, I'd have to say neither. He's a doctor who provided a medical service a lot of women obviously wanted, a service I'll never need, being male, and beyond that it's like any other elective medical procedure people choose to have: none of my business, it's a private matter between patient and physician.

Quite so, he was a human being who was trying to do some good. Having been in a Nazi concentration camp, he first hand saw the tragic effects of a tyrannical, brutal regime denying people the freedom of choice.

He resolved that women will not forced by the state to do anything against their wishes (as he was forced into the concentration camp) and worked ceaselessly to legalize abortion. He went to prison for his efforts, the ultimate sacrifice. The day Supreme Court struck down Canada’s abortion law must be the crowning achievement in his life.

So I would say neither a criminal or a saint, just a human being like everybody. But if those are the only two choices, I would choose saint.

 

[talloola]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

Now you have the proper official answer, Talloola, so you don't have to waste any more valuable time listening to a bunch of us know nothings...............:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

well not official,lol, but I do agree that to force a woman to
have a baby against her will is horrible.
As soon as the cells divide all pro lifers immediately jump
to the protection of the embryo, not I, for the first 3 mths. as I've said many times, I give the mom-to-be every
right to cancel the pregnancy, that is enough time, she has
time to, 'know she is pregnant', 'think clearly', make a
well thought out decision, and it is stil an embryo till
3 months, and is just fine by me for any mom- to- be, to
have an abortion up to that time. It is 'her' decision and
not anyone else's business.
In this day and age, an abortion is done in a clean environment, and the woman
can go on with her life, and have children when 'she' wants them.
I believe the decision to abort, has nothing to do with convenience, but everything
to do with the welfare of both the mom and the child, and the ability of the mom
to care for the baby, and many other reasons which I won't list here, but not for
'her' convenience as has been stated here.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Re: Henry Morgantaler- Saint or Common Criminal?

I remember reading that in 'Freakonomics', where a link could be shown between access to abortion and the drop in crime rates. It's an interesting notion, might have some validity, certainly makes a person think, though.

Abortion results in a kind of (unintentional) selective breeding. Women who have problems in their life resort to abortion, that is mainly poorer women, women from high crime area. In USA, abortion rate among blacks is much higher than among whites.

So a priori, it is the potential criminals who get aborted selectively. It is not surprising that abortion can be (at least apparently) be related to reduced crime rate.

 

[karrie]

Re: What rights should a fetus have?

well not official,lol, but I do agree that to force a woman to
have a baby against her will is horrible.
As soon as the cells divide all pro lifers immediately jump
to the protection of the embryo, not I, for the first 3 mths. as I've said many times, I give the mom-to-be every
right to cancel the pregnancy, that is enough time, she has
time to, 'know she is pregnant', 'think clearly', make a
well thought out decision, and it is stil an embryo till
3 months, and is just fine by me for any mom to be to
have an abortion up to that time. It is 'her' decision and
not anyone else's business.

I'd point out that this puts you in the 'pro-lifer' camp according to 'true' pro-choicers. To interfere, ever, with a woman's choice is offensive to them. If I wanted to be ignorant and inflammatory, I'd say, all pro-choicers believe that women should be allowed to kill any fetus, in any way, at any stage of pregnancy, but thankfully I'm smarter than that. :lol: